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Tom_Doak

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2003, 06:20:08 PM »
Matt,

You are probably right that a waiting period would be in order, if people are going to make assumptions about whether a new course was "not deserving" or "doesn't have a quorum yet."  However this is impatience on the part of the readers.

Certainly the magazines aren't going to go back to a waiting period, anymore than the NBA is going to stop drafting 19-year-olds.  Yes, it would be better for many; but no, a select few would be unfairly delayed their just recognition, and every new course hopes it might be one of those select few.  And us architects are all for anything that gets our courses recognized sooner instead of later.

What I wish they'd get a better handle on is the stabilization of the committee(s), so that sweeping changes like those shown above don't occur.  What is Yale to think about moving up 18 places?  What are Camargo or Salem to think about falling ten places after completing what most people regard as good restorations?  

In truth the reason for most of those changes is the turnover among committee members ... adding new people who like / don't like those courses, whether they've seen the recent work or not.  It's not a freaking horse race, it's a list which honors great courses, no matter whether they're 49th or 73rd.


Tom_Doak

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2003, 06:21:34 PM »
Oh yeah, Joel S., where's that course in Korea that bought its way into the 100 Greatest?

Paul_Turner

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2003, 06:35:30 PM »
Does GOLF list the rankers ;)  Love to see a list of 'em, isn't this panel the one with the celebrities and top pros?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2003, 07:05:49 PM »
Tom:

Don't doubt what you say but the "rush to judgement"
but I believe you have it backwards -- the rush comes from the media's desire to being the first to list such and such course(s). Great courses are like fine wine -- the good ones age wonderfully while the flash in the pan types are quickly unearthed after a slight period of time. Magazines hate to be scooped but they should be a bit more diligent on the procedure and process they use to identify such courses. Unfortunately, the notion of being diligent is lost with many in the media today and I say that as a person in the industry.

When I see "new" courses leap into such exalted company I just have to wonder how much of the pre-buzz spin is tied to this "rush to judgement." If you have a course that is in the top 1000 there's no doubt that such a placement is quite an honor. The top 100 is the ultra ultra exlcusive club and requires careful and deliberate assessment.

Related to this is my concern with the people who do the selections. Many of them really are not national panelists but in actuality regional or state specific in their focus.

Digest used to have a waiting period and I think it was a good thing to do given the nature of what happened when Harbour Town came on the scene. Initially, the course was listed among the top 20-25 courses and when the initial hoopla died down the course eventually dropped in standing.

Think of it this way -- how would Pacific Dunes / Bandon Dunes been hurt by waiting say two or three years before being eligible for such national polls / ratings? Plus, the additional time would allow other reviewers to see a course and from that would be a deeper poll of numbers and assessments to balance out the inevitable high and lows.





Chris Kane

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2003, 11:22:12 PM »
Tony,
I think that a number of things should be borne in mind before you go about making rash statements about a course you havn't seen for fifteen years, and hence, five of the holes.

The Australian Golf Digest list is hardly an authority on the relative architectural merit of Australia's top courses, primarily because the methodology used to compile the list is the most seriously flawed imaginable.  It's role is to serve interstate rivalries first, and provide a realistic ranking second.

A more accurate ranking is the Golf Australia - which features both Paul Daley and Mike Clayton as panellists.  Although it still has flaws, the end result is a much fairer one, probably because it doesn't cater to narrow interests like the GD one.  Commonwealth was #10 in 1992 (and might of been higher in years before that?), and was #T21 last year.

I think that the lack of alarm about Commonwealth's fall in the past five years stems from the emphasis on course conditioning.  Commonwealth's fairways have suffered in comparison to the other sandbelt courses, though this is coming to an end - the fairways at the moment are magnificent.  Metro is considered one of the best courses in the country, but IMHO, the architecture there is inferior to Victoria, Woodlands and Commonwealth.  If Metro weren't such a prestigious club, and didn't have such great fairways, would it be top 10?  I think not.

Is Commonwealth an inferior course to the one you saw in 1988?  I can't say, because I never saw the old course, but you won't get much argument that it isn't.  But to say that it rightly struggles to maintain top 20-25 status is preposterous.  There is far too much great architecture left for it to justly leave the top 20.  Holes like 2, 9, 11, 15, 16 and 18 are outstanding holes: and would be standout holes individually at most courses outside the top 25.

Around the time you last saw Commonwealth, it was a Doak 8 - comparable to Royal Adelaide and Kingston Heath - top 5 in Australia.  It has slipped since then, but not to the extend that your comments (based entirely on world of mouth, and with little basis in fact) suggest.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a club member talking, I have no problems with people providing criticism of Commonwealth, as long as it is educated criticism.  Yours isn't.

Noel,
The changes at Commonwealth we refer to are the works in the early 90's by Kevin Hartley (champion amateur in the 60's and 70's).  Holes 1, 6, 7 and 12 were fundamentally changed, and many other holes were slightly altered.  The ongoing work of Tony Cashmore has been minimal, and at this point has not had a negative impact on the stature of the course.  

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2003, 12:01:00 AM »
P_Turner--

Golf Mag is the only publication that lists their panelist in their publication so that all can see.  It's basically a who's-who of the golf industry including the person who runs this site...  Take a look when the issue hits the news stands next week.  I'm getting my copy tomorrow...  Can't wait to see it in newsprint! ;D
« Last Edit: August 09, 2003, 12:02:47 AM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2003, 03:47:31 AM »
For all the talk about how some people on this website despise Top 100 lists and their ilk, the speed with which the first 100+ posts in this thread have been posted speaks volumes about how they continue to capture our interest and be important (sometimes positively, often negatively), doesn't it?

Cheers,
Darren

Chris Kane

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2003, 05:12:05 AM »
Darren,
I agree.

I've never understood why people here appear to despise the top 100 lists, when they provide such a great starting point for discussion.  The subject of this forum is golf courses: these lists bring the study of golf courses to prominence.  Isn't that a good thing?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2003, 09:47:30 AM »
Matt,

Funny to hear about a waiting period from someone who has 5-6 courses in his own top fifty that are less than two years old!

Bandon and Pacific Dunes have been seen by more of the panelists on these polls than some courses that have been around 50 years -- Cape Breton Highlands, Lehigh, probably even Myopia.  Once a course gets a quorum, why does it matter how old the votes are?

You're right that many new courses are carried along by hype.  In fact, one of the main reasons for "rash judgments" is not that the MAGAZINE gets over-excited, but one or two PANELISTS get over-excited because they think they've discovered something wonderful, and they call all their buddies and get them out there.

As for whether it would have hurt Bandon/Pacific to wait three years before making any of these lists ... think about that.  Would Bandon Dunes be rated so highly today?  Would as many people have gotten out there to see it without the rankings?

Without the rankings, Pacific Dunes might not even have been built yet.


Tim Liddy

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #109 on: August 09, 2003, 11:23:46 AM »
The List, the List. The list is biased, political and too erratic. As one who will probably never have a golf course on the list; I love the list.  It tries hard to represent the absolute best that golf has to offer.

Frankly, I think this group could do a much better job collating a proper list of top golf courses on a regional basis, with some oversight for a national 100 golf course. How about an official GCA list?

Time and TV should not be a factor.  When a great golf course comes along, like Pacific Dunes, it should be included immediately. It tests our rankings of existing golf courses.  Unfortunately,  there are far too many golf courses built every year that should not be considered, as  they tend to float on and off during a two year period (politics).

Mark_Fine

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2003, 11:41:05 AM »
redanman,
Let's put the debate about "intellectual integrity" to the side for the time being ;)  

Why is Lehigh a surprise on the Top 100 list?  Tom Doak raved about the course when he saw it and wrote an article later that year claiming it was one of the two best courses he saw that year and that it was better than half the courses listed on the current top 100 lists.   He also referenced the par five you don't like (just because I do) as an outstanding risk/reward golf hole.  Someday you will get it but I realize these things take time.  I think Tom's opinion is his own opinion not one of others.  I think Ran feels the same way.  Also, maybe you don't know how the voting process works; panelists can tell club members what ever they want to hear but last I checked, the club members don't vote for them.  

All I know is that the guys I know who have seen Lehigh from GM are not "token celebrities".  They know golf architecture and are extremely well traveled and have seen essentially all the best golf courses in the world.  They vote as they see it.  

If you are embarrassed about #83, maybe you should drop out of the club and go join Saucon Valley so you feel better.




Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #111 on: August 09, 2003, 01:30:36 PM »
Tom Doak:

I play by the "rules" that exist -- when thoughtful magazines (is there such a thing?) include a waiting period I shall do likewise.

Tom -- when you ask whether BD or PD would be were they are I say this -- of all people -- you should know that the "word" on the street takes many forms and you even created an "inside rating guide" for your friends which later morphed into "Confidential Guide."

The success of BD and PD goes way beyond what GD and GM say -- I don't need the stamp of a commercial magazine to tell me what a great course is to paraphrase the late Potter Stewart. The world we live in today has may outlets for communicatoin and it's a rare day for any course of high quality to escape attention. That may have been the case years ago but no more. What bugs me is that too many people zone in a few candidates and they eat up the attention cycle where other bonafide contenders get chucked aside.

Tom -- a waiting period only serves to allow 'OTHERS' to see a course before the tiny grouping of select panelists weigh in too strongly with their opinions -- as you correctly stated. I believe that is what happened with Hidden Creek -- to name just one course. There is way too much initial "bounce" that comes with the first review and waiting a short period of time for others to weigh in will lessen / prevent this from happening to the large degree it does now. As was mentioned by others -- I'm sure we shall see the same thing when Friar's Head is officially listed.

Tom -- the magazines chose to end the waiting period -- they should know, but I understand their thinking (let's be first rater than be right is the credo) because I'm in the business. Tell you what -- I can withhold the placement of the "new" ones I have in my own personal listing when they do likewise. ;)

Mark Fine:

Lehigh is a fine course -- no doubt about that. However, it is not top 100 in the United States. I don't doubt for a New York minute the course got lost in the sauce for tooooo long (myself included!), but it doesn't have the firepower of a few long par-4's (I have mentioned this before) and the par-5's are at best OK to rank among the highest of courses in the USA IMHO.

Mark, you have to realize that although you are keen observer of courses and a plus to GD's rating panel -- at the of the day you have a vested interest in Lehigh since you're a member there. You should be quite proud of the Flynn design but I don't see the totality of the challenge that a course meriting such a lofty position must have.

When you speak about Saucon Valley I cannot agree more with you. There is no way the Grace or Old Courses should receive the kind of ink both normally do. The Old is on the better land but it doesn't have the uniqueness or collective sense of shotmaking Lehigh does. The Grace is simply a long and boring William & David Gordon design -- I think of it as Stanwich-lite.

Tim Liddy:

You are quite corret -- having a regional listing would be helpful and going with a smaller grouping of folks at the national level would help. Right now the proliferation of "raters" is nothing more than a Gallup or Zagat's poll. Yes, there are no doubt clear courses worthy of all the ink (Shinnecock, WF, PV, NGLA, CP, etc, etc) but you don't need all those people at the "national" level because so few people really traverse the country with that sort of regularity to weigh in with some sort of informed opinion on what is happening. Clearly, some peoplecontinue to rate "certain" courses simply because that particular course has always been listed. I see it way too much of the time.

I have always contended that too many modern designs and the younger designers involved in the business don't get much ink and as a result their designs are often relegated to the sidelines. Beforeanyone chimes in -- I'm not suggesting that any design by the new crowd merits such recognition but when I see The Kingsley Club and Hollywood (NJ), to namejust two examples get little rightful attention I have to wonder what people are looking at when I see Shoreacres (help me stop laughing) continues to "MOVE UP" in the ratings when no less than one-third of the course is pedestrian stuff!

I can also name Black Mesa -- just ouside of Santa Fe as an example that comes to mind. Here is a sensational layout by Baxter Spann but it happens to be in New Mexico and the "buzz" says that no quality golf can occur in New Mexico. It can only happen in the designated places such as the Hamptons! ::)

The issue with the ratings is that the "inner sanctum" of people responsible generally provide a very narrow thought pattern on what constitutes "great" courses. Too many of these raters follow the "star" architects -- either past or current and as a result you get the same "name" courses bouncing around while the isolated (I have to say this because not every modern design is worthy of being considered but there are some no doubt IMHO) superb modern courses exist in obscurity.

There needs to be much more due diligence (and reforming the procedures of the ratings themselves) in these matters because a number of people within the golf industry (general managers, directors of golf, superintendents, even architects themselves) question the capacity of these people to make the kind of decisions you are seeing. The ratings panels of all the magazines would be better served in following a 'less is more' philosophy in the disposition and size of their panels. Will it happen? Doubt it -- because the appeal of such things sells and keeps the hype going.


Tom_Doak

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2003, 01:53:03 PM »
Tim L:  There are a couple of problems with "regional" lists:

1)  You're comparing a bunch of courses which are all 5's or 6's or 7's on my scale, and it's pointless to try to rank those because they are all basically the same.

2)  I believe strongly that "uniqueness" should count for something in the rankings of the best courses in the world, however it will also factor into a regional list, and in that context it's misplaced.  A Scottish ranking would try to include a couple of inland courses (on the basis of variety) which wouldn't belong in the top 1000 courses in the world.  A Michigan ranking might include The Bear at Grand Traverse Resort simply because it's the only really hard Nicklaus course in the state, even though there are 100 like it around the world and it's nowhere near the best of them.

Mark:  I'm happy for you that Lehigh got some recognition.  I don't remember going so far as to say that it is better than half the courses on the list, and I didn't vote that highly on it myself.  It is one of many courses that, as a hidden gem, has some observers outraged over its omission; but, once it's on the list, will have others questioning whether it belongs.  There's a very fine line one has to walk there, and I hope you enjoy walking it now.

It will be interesting to see if the GOLF DIGEST list now follows suit with Lehigh moving up its charts.  One list tends to influence the other.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2003, 02:17:19 PM »
Matt,
It's all subjective so I won't argue with you.  You clearly put a higher emphasis on length and difficulty than others do which is fine.  When you are someone who hits the ball 330 yards I can see why  ;)  All I know is redanman qualified for the club championship with an 83 (top 16 scores get in) and I thought the course was playing on the easy side that day so it's obviously not that much of a push over.

Tom,
My quote about your comments came from the write up you did in October of 2000 titled "The Index - Three Things You Should Know".  You started out by saying, "Here are the two top gems I've seen this year, each of them better than half the courses on the prestigious top-100 lists that ignore them".
You mentioned Lehigh and Wild Horse GC.  

Anyway, it doesn't really matter.  I know you like the golf course and whether it's 83 or 183, it's still one of those top golf courses that anyone interested in great golf architecture should play.  But others should please keep in mind, I don't vote for Golf Mag., others put it on the list, not me.

As far as Golf Digest following suit, time will tell.  A friend from San Francisco GC (another overrated golf course  ;) ) called me up a few months ago and asked if I saw Ron Whitten on the golf channel?  He told me Ron was asked to name two courses that are not on GD’s Top 100 list that should be?  Lehigh was supposedly the first one he mentioned!  Who knows what will happen.  
Mark



Jim Franklin

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #114 on: August 09, 2003, 02:27:26 PM »
GD has a 5 year waiting list for a course to be considered for top 100. They cover the new courses by their "best new" issue. GM and GW do not have a waiting list. I have no problem with one publication having a waiting list as to not let "pre buzz" hype influence a ranking and I do not have a problem with the other publications not using a waiting period.
GM's raters (about 80 of them) are all in the golf business while GD's (about 535 of them) are single digit players that appreciate architecture and GW's I don't really know. I think there are 75-100, but do not know the qualifications. I played with one recently and he did not reach any par 4 in regulation from the white tees. The magazine's certainly love these issues as they are usually the #1 seller each time just like Money Magazine rating mutual funds (speaking of a joke issue).
Mr Hurricane

Tim Liddy

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #115 on: August 09, 2003, 02:28:02 PM »
TD

I think a regional view would add objectivity.  For instance in the Midwest the golf courses would be:

15 Crystal Downs
20 Chicago Golf Club
23 Muirfield Village
28 The Golf Club
29 Shoreacres
30 Medinah #3
31 Whistling Straits
38 Camargo
60 Olympia Fields
85 Blackwolf Run River
88 Crooked Stick
91 Firestone South
95 Milwaukee
96 Bellerive

If a national rater instructed his Midwest raters to consider these golf courses, I could see major revisions.  It would enable raters to get a comprehensive and current review of this short list over the two year review period- much more in-depth and objective. They would also look and rate a few new golf courses and stay current with national development, but not be responsible for national ratings.

Considering this smaller more manageable list, Camargo and Whistling Straits would rank much higher. Crooked Stick would also place slightly higher.

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #116 on: August 09, 2003, 03:41:15 PM »
Mark F:

Can you really say that Lehigh is better than Rolling Green or Huntington Valley?

Look, I don't doubt the course suffered for too long because of a lack of attention (count me in that grouping), but my assessment of courses goes beyond my own golf game. Please Mark -- I deserve a bit more credit than that! I did the ratings for GD for 17 years and when I visit any course I observe all the players playing and see what the strategic merits, if any, are of a course. I am long removed from just stating an opinion on a course because of my personal fit with my golf game.

Lehigh needs some long par-4's to balance the equation. It can be done with the 1st and 18th holes a just two examples. The par-5's are also a tad on the lite side although they do have tee game strategies no doubt.

I just really believe a top 100 listing is so competitive that if a course doesn't make it -- it doesn't then mean a course is bad. This is where the elite meet -- pure and simple. When I don't see courses such as Hollywood, The Kingsley Club, Black Mesa, I can name quite a few others -- I have to wonder how much of the ratings is the marketing and PR aspect being pushed by people with certain agenda? Let me also point out it has never made any sense to me how the Grace Course at Saucon Valley has been CONSISTENTLY a member of the GD 100. The course is tough but where are the key architectural aspects you find in other courses throughout the Pennsy region that encompasses the greater Phillie area?

*****

Regarding a regional listing I think having it might prove fruitful because if you analyze the USA you could group a series of states together because the quality of layouts that are being rated individually for each state doesn't make much sense because the talent pool from some states is quite lite.

Mr Hurricane:

I don't believe GD has a waiting list for top 100 consideration. I believe they used to have one but not now. I could be wrong on this.

Also, the GD panel is now in excess of 700+ panelists. I have mentioned a number of my own personal issues with this because a number of people who are rating either have a direct interest in the outcome or really operate on a regional basis than a national one.

There is also the issue of complying numbers from one person and then getting numbers from another person and then somehow being able to discern without any cross comparison the absolute standing of a particular course. Once you add too many people the final product becomes nothing more than either a major compromise or as I said before the continued promotion of "star" architects and favored regions of the country where too many courses are riding the coattails of those who merit all the acclaim they receive.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #117 on: August 09, 2003, 05:01:19 PM »
Matt,
Maybe all three should be on the list?  Honestly, if you look at Golfweek's ratings of the Philly area Flynn courses, they are all rated pretty much the same.  Pick your favorite and you can't be too far off which one is the best.  All have their strengths and weaknesses.  It depends on how you weight them.  For me personally, harder does not necessarily mean better.  The length you speak of is realtive.  #18 for example at Lehigh is already 450 yards slightly up hill.  How long do you want it?  There are only a handful of players at the club that can reach that green in regulation on a routine basis from back there.  
I'll give you a shout later today and we can have a good chat!  Too bad we didn't have time at Rolling Green last week.
Mark



tonyt

Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #118 on: August 09, 2003, 06:58:40 PM »
Chris Kane,

A fair post, and all accepted.

You note Commonwealth should be Aussie top 20, and yet on your favoured list, it is Tied 21st (tied with the two Cashy courses I would happily put below it). And in a ten round breakdown, I would play it 8-2 or 7-3 against Laguna Quays.

From my past experience, yes, it had a framework that is so much better than many others similarly ranked, that if other factors (you raise conditioning as one possible one) are looked at, it will rise. Another factor is "out of sight, out of mind". It has been a little ignored, forgotten or taken for granted. I am not alone amongst those who haven't seen her lately.

tonyt

Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #119 on: August 09, 2003, 07:05:31 PM »
On the debate of what type of rankings list is best, and how long it should be before a course is eligible, the top 100 list is the type most desired by readers. We in the treehouse can look at all the factors with merit that we want, but at the end of the day, a single top 100 is simpler, and more easily satisfies the definitive clarity that would be more easily consumed by the consumer.

Separate modern/classic lists ARE better, but only for the top 15% or so of tried and true golf fans. The general public want something more easily defined without having to think of additional factors or caveats.

The same applies to new courses. Whilst such a caveat on time has some merit, the public hear about a rave new course, and want to know how it stacks up. And the magazines, in order to sell copies, want to be the ones to make the announcement, and be the all great provider of the information. Nothing evil in that, just business.

redanman

Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #120 on: August 09, 2003, 07:26:19 PM »
I still stand by my statement that LCC should not be on a list that excludes Phila CC and Huntingdon Valley from the top 100.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 11:14:24 AM by W.Vostinak »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2003, 07:32:21 PM »
Bill,
74 was medalist, 4 over par.  I guess everyone played as bad as you did!

Chris Kane

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #122 on: August 10, 2003, 12:14:02 AM »
tonyt,
Golf Australia is my favoured list, but by no means do I agree with the final result in its entirety.  It rates Metro far too highly, and Woodlands far too low.  But thats just my opinion.  Is Commonwealth better than T21?  Without a doubt (in my admittedly biased opinion).  But the GA list gives a relatively accurate picture of the movement in courses.  Commonwealth has slipped.


Danny Goss

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Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #123 on: August 10, 2003, 02:50:17 AM »
tonyt,

Turn it up. How can you rank Commonwealth where you do if you havent been there for 15 years? I'm with Chris here. He gets around you know!

James_Livingston

Re:Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!
« Reply #124 on: August 10, 2003, 06:58:20 AM »
I'm not sure how Commonwealth has even come to be discussed on a thread discussing the world's top 100 courses.  Whilst it was once amongst Australia's very best, the disastrous changes of the early 1990's, combined with massive overplanting and conditioning that is generally the worst on the sandbelt, have left it a shadow of its former self.  Whilst all is not lost, and many are hopeful it can be returned to a more rightful position, there is simply no discussion of a place in the top 100 in its current form.

Chris Kane
Should Woodlands be the Australian course that ought to feel hard done by missing out on this list. Your two favorite panellists, Mike Clayton and Paul Daley, both rate it above Commonwealth.  Indeed, Paul rated Portsea at 8, above Commonwealth, which is probably a fair assessment.  I agree though it is better than t21.  If NAF is right that the National Moonah course should make it, then the list will also have another 10-20 Australian courses. ;)

Danny Goss
You are spot on.  Rumor would have it that Chris indeed gets around, more so recently. :-X
« Last Edit: August 10, 2003, 06:59:49 AM by James_Livingston »