Kingsley Club vs. Hidden Creek

[NAF]

Ted,

I view the KC as a 9.  Yes a 9.  Doak gave Crystal Downs a 10 which we played 36 holes at before the KC.  I don't view the courses as that dissimilar.  I think the Good Dr. would be very proud of Mike DV.  I've played 72 holes at Crystal Downs as well in total so got to see some of its nuances.  I give Hidden Creek a 7.  HC is 140 miles from where I live, would I drive 100 miles to see it just like Doak gives a "7" in his book.  I would.  I don't have Doak Guide in front of me.. I'm trapped in a corner of NJ that has some power as NYC where I live is blacked out.  I probably am bias though as I had so much fun playing all kinds of funky shots at the KC that it moved me.  I believe you and Ran played it 2 weeks after I was there and you probably had the same conditions.  But I don't agree with TD on a bunch of things. I think Royal Cinque Ports is an 8 (not a 6), West Sussex an 8 (not a 7) and Saunton (7 vs. Doak 6).. Also Plainfield which he gave a 7 is a 9 in my book.

[Steve Lang]

   

I haven't seen anyone mention liking the opportunities to putt from 1-30 yards off many of the greens at TKC..   This summer they've had some dry conditions up there and the greens were certainly exciting when we played...

Re #2 & 9 ... no spin, no win!

[T.J. Sturges]

NAF,

A 9 is high praise indeed.  You obviously loved the place.  Your grading scale might be different from mine (and from your other examples of your grading differences with T. Doak, your scale is obviously different from his).  I don't always agree with Tom either, and like you, I usually have something graded higher than he rather than my score being the lower one.  Your scores seem consistently higher than Tom's (some by more than a point) which is curious.  I don't have very many 9's of the courses I've played (maybe 7 or 8 courses).  Kingsley for me would be a 6 or a 7 (probably a 7).  To be a 9, it would have to be near bullet proof.  Kingsley (good as it is) has too many deficiencies to be rated as high as a 9 (for me).  I did enjoy playing there, the fun factor was very high.  I look forward to a return visit.

TS

[NAF]

Ted,

I seem to grade the Doak 6s and 7s a little higher.. There are only a handful of 9s I've played as well..Prairie Dunes, Rye, Pebble Beach etc.  There are instances where I do think he overrated a course but to each player the eye suits differently. Most of what I rate a course in my mind depends on fun and to some degree quirk.  Thats why I love golf in the UK more than over here.  The Kingsley Club had both so that is why I rated it so highly.  Perhaps I'm wrong, my guess is TD would have given it somewhere in the 7 or 8 range and not a 9.  The golfweek panelists I traveled with could give their own rendition.  Its obvious you are very well traveled and your ideas well thought out so I enjoy hearing your opinions.  It is sad we disagree a bit.  But I disagreed with 2 of the people I respect the most on this site about HC and I must go see it because the possibility remains that I could be wrong.  I'm sure if I got to play HC five or 10 times I would rate it higher and the subtley factor Ran saw his first trip around would arrive to me in technicolor.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ted;

I'd give Kingsley Club a Doak Scale '8'.  That's pretty heady company considering I had played Crystal Downs the day prior.

How would you compare the sites of Crystal Downs with The Kingsley Club?  It seems to me that once you get out of the valley and off the 10th green, you have a combination of steep land rising to flattish ground at the high point.  Mackenzie/Maxwell tried to solve this problem by creating the long walk from 11 to 12, and coming back, with the controversial 17th hole.  What do you think?

[GeoffreyC]

Back in the light after the blackout  

I'm solidly on Noel's side here.  I can't for the life of me understand the criticisms of KC that you let slide for other courses.

Is the 11th at Shinnecock one of the great short 1 shotters in golf or might it suffer the same criticism as the 2nd at Kingsley?  Ran, Ted others please answer.

Mike Cirba offered some great observations about the property that Crystal Downs is built on. What about the 5th hole at Crystal?  Is that good terrain for golf?  What about the 17th hole at Crystal?  Let the criticism and marking down begin here as well.  Please respond.  

The great Dr. M maximized use of the CD property but perhaps part of that land was just not ideally suited for golf either. Lets be consistent.

[Mike_Cirba]

Any thread that brings BOTH John Morrissett AND Ted Sturges out of GCA retirement has to be a great thing!!  

[NAF]

Miguel Cirba,

Amigo, I seem to recall sitting in the Cherry County airport with you and Mr. Childs and you saying the course was a minimum Doak 8.5?  Do you not recall that or were you perhaps entransced by the possibilities of what awaited you in Philadelphia after the gift you received via Fed Ex in Traverse.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Noel;

8.5?  9?  Whew....I don't recall...

After that FedEx package arrived, the rest was a blur.  Do you blame me?    

[T.J. Sturges]

To Mike Cirba and Geoffrey Childs:

1.  To compare the sites of CD to KC, I would say that one is on a bluff between lake Michigan and Crystal Lake, with a couple of severe patches that required creativity to make a golf course routing work (the long walk to the 12th tee, and the controversial 17th hole).  The other is on a property that required one third of the holes to be built on severe patches of the property (1,6,7,9,12,17).  Not that this is bad mind you, it's just not what I would call a similar site to CD.  I would add the 5th @ CD to the list of severe holes of the 36 holes under discussion here, and I would add that it is not one of my personal favorites at the Downs.  Back to CD 17th.  I never played the hole when it had the tree in the middle of the fairway, but I'm sure I would have liked it less then.  As it is now, you can hit a 3 wood or a 3 iron to the saddle, and then you have a very demanding short shot left.  I like the hole.  Would I have "found" that hole when routing this great course?  I dunno.  MacKenzie may have been forced into building a hole there to get back near the clubhouse.  Without knowing the boundries of the property there at the time it was built, it would be hard to say.  Unlike most people, I like the 18th hole at CD, so maybe he really wanted to get back to a spot near where he wanted to put the 18th tee.

2.  The argument one of you made about comparing the 2nd @ KC to the 11th @ Shinnecock is a very good argument.  I only have one round in at Shinnecock and I played it on a pretty calm day and I hit it on that green.  But...some of the criticisms I made about the 2nd at KC could be made of the 11th @ SH.  The 11th @ SH is truly a holy terror in the wind (as we saw the last time The Open was there).  A mid-handicap player might not finish the hole under Open conditions (ie:  shaved banks on the green surrounds and windy day) which is somewhat similar to the criticisms I have made of the 2nd @ KC.   Both holes are very similar in length.  You are making me rethink these negative comments.

TS

[GeoffreyC]

Ted

I too loved the 5th at Crystal Downs.  Its certainly unique and not at all subtle   but it is one of my favorites.



The 17th is less interesting since I don't think the options really work too well.  It sure does make up for it with one of the absolute best pitch shots in golf.


I'm with you on the 18th.  I really liked the tee shot with its seemingly tempting ploy to cut off more on the right then you are capable. Its a good approach as well.

Mike Cirba first pointed out that the 16th at CD was a key to the routing.  While it is a slog of a par 5 (I agree) it links the fantastic 13-15th holes with the 17th and 18th back to the clubhouse.  Your thoughts?

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Sturges:

You need to read the amount of stuff I have already posted on Kingsley Club before barking about my "sound bites." It's all been posted here on GCA if you bothered to look.

I have done the heavy lifting of clear and in-depth analysis of TKC a good number of times my good man and for you to weigh in from the cheap seast without any real understanding of my total comments is a bit much.

[T.J. Sturges]

Matt,

My apologies if you were offended.  And...with all due respect, I have read a great deal of your prior postings (indeed, your Top 50 courses in the US list is an adequate sampling of your taste in architecture).  Having said that, I look forward to your promise on the other thread to compare and contrast Lost Dunes and The Kingsley Club.

TS

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Sturges:

Love the subtle jab in making a comment on my personal top 50! It might prove helpful for me and others to see your "tastes" in architecture outlined here on GCA.

My assessments of Lost Dunes and TKC will be posted tomorrow. Adios for now ...

P.S. Please do yourself a big favor -- if your apology is to mean anything -- and instead of throwing grenades about my "sound bites" please read the comments on details previously statedby me regarding The Kingsley Club. I was the one who came forward and stated how GD simply blew it with their assessment when the course did not even make the top ten best new private and comes in at 22nd in MI.

I don't just offer up and down verdicts I often go into great lengths in explaining each hole and how they stack up in the totality of their routing. If you have not seen such posts I would contact a good eye doctor.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt,

I get up to NJ quite often and would like to meet you.  I'll be at Baltusrol in October, maybe then.  I find you quite passionate about golf and golf architecture.  FUN.  I'm not quite sure why you are so exorcised about HC but would love to chat.  I was to play Friar's Head but it got cancelled on me.DAMN.

[Matt_Ward]

tommy:

My comments on Hidden Creek are not personally directed at the club or the architects -- I've said that several times. What I have said is that too many ardent C&C fans will celebrate the joys of Hidden Creek in such a high manner to erroneously believe IMHO that the course is within America's top 100 courses. It isn't IMHO. Unfortunately, certain "star architcets (both dead and alive) have cult status here on GCA. I just think that there are times when people confuse the existing course they are reviewing with ones that have preceded it. Like I said before even Babe Ruth didn't hit home runs with every swing. Neither does any architect.

I don't see Hidden Creek meriting top 100 status because even in the state of New Jersey cracking into the top ten is not simple matter because of the depth of courses that are in my home state.

Hidden Creek is a fine course but if you happen to be in the Atlantic City area and miss out playing Galloway National and Atlantic City CC you will be disappointed by missing these two fine courses. In fact --the TF design at Galloway is one of his best that I have played.

P.S. If you happen tomake it to NJ you can always contact me offline. Hope to tee it up...