News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hello Treehouse,
I finally have a chance to sit down and write down some thoughts on this summer. For those of you who don't know, I spent this summer studying golf courses, much like Tom Doak did after his sophomore year of college, and got to see a lot of places in the US I didn't even dream of seeing or playing. I've been hesitant to post about it before/during the summer because I didn't want to fish for invites. For those of you who did, I'm still alive and did not fall asleep at the wheel! While the intention was to first see as many architects as possible, the summer really ended up being a "discovery" of the works of CB MacDonald and Seth Raynor, Donald Ross, Tillinghast, and Pete Dye, with a little bit of Doak, Coore & Crenshaw, Mike Strantz, Nicklaus, Hanse, and Flynn mixed in. It was a summer in which I learned an incredible amount about golf architecture, myself, my ability to play this game, and what makes the game of golf so endearing. It also strengthened my belief that in some form or capacity this is what I want to do with my life, as difficult as that may be to accomplish.

Before I go into the details about revelations I had in GCA, I wanted to thank a few people. First off, thanks to Eric Schmidt, Chris Johnston, and all of those out at Dismal River for hosting us all at the 5th Major. When people ask what my favorite parts of the trip were, it's always fun to say that meeting people I bicker with online 5 hours from a major city in Hooker County, Nebraska was one of them (usually, much like when I'd describe this trip to people, they would think that that was awesome, that I was unbelievably crazy, or a combination of both). For those who haven't gone to it, I highly recommend making the trip as difficult as it is. Both courses are phenomenal and getting the chance to meet everyone on this board was fantastic. I had the best partner in Lou Duran, and while our golf did not lead us to victory (Seriously, someone needs to take that trophy from Kavanaugh, this cannot stand!) I couldn't have asked for a better partner. Who would have thought that the oldest and youngest members at the 5th major would get along so well! Also a special thanks to Doug Siebert, who helped me out in a serious pinch! And thanks to all of you for making me, easily the youngest guy out there, feel so welcome. It meant a ton and I hope to see you all in the future.

Thanks to Tom Doak for taking the time to meet with me and showing me around the front 9 at Crystal Downs, which will be an experience I will cherish for the rest of my life.

To Jon Stein and Mark Bourgeois, thanks for setting up the GCA event at Yale. I think over the course of the entire trip, Yale was one of the most eye popping. It expanded the boundaries of what was possible in design and remains one of my favorite places on earth. My grandfather received his undergrad and PhD from Yale, and while he is not a golfer (and didn't know that Yale had a golf course!), I told him that he can be very proud. It was a special moment for me on the trip and another great chance to meet so many on this board and put faces to the names I see all the time.

To all those who helped me in one form or another on this trip, both those on this discussion board and off, you know who you all are and I cannot thank you all enough for helping make this possible. This short line is not enough to show my gratitude and I hope to convey it more so in the next few months as I start to get some more free time.

And last but certainly not least, to my grandparents: without them, this trip would not have happened. I'm also lucky enough to have two of the best (and maybe craziest!) parents in the world for letting me do a trip like this and chase my goals in life.

And with that I'll transfer to the golf portion of the trip. I'm going to do this in installments so that there can be some discussion on the comments as we go through the thread.

Courses I was amazed by:
Yale Golf Club- Let's start where I left off. I won't go into much detail as so much of it is in the great "OMG Yale" thread started a few weeks ago, but that place pushes the boundaries. It's a great example of how a golf course can stand up with weaker conditioning: slower greens, greater contours, not the perfect lies. I learned so much seeing the place and reading the threads afterward.

Chicago Golf Club- Their current super is incredible and has been doing an incredible job getting the course firm and fast, almost to the extreme. The place is everything we love about architecture and a tremendous testament to the game. Their set of two-shotters are engrained in my head. Maybe someday I'll get the chance to play it.

Crystal Downs- The greens alone are just amazing. As far as nines go, the front may be the best 9 in the world.

Oakmont- If I could just play golf at one course for the rest of my life, this might be it. A fantastic set of greens and a demanding golf course that remains interesting. Much like Pine Valley the course was built with the championship caliber player in mind, why punish a tremendous design for that? Played it from the Open tees and I have to say some of their yardages, like the 280 yard 8th (par 3) and the 690 yard 12th are absurd. But in firmer conditions (it was pretty soft when we played it) those yardages are more reasonable and holes like the 8th actually become pretty interesting.

Camargo- Boy, I have no words for this place. I think of the courses I saw over the summer this was the most underrated and one of my absolute favorites. It had, in my opinion, the best set of par 3's I've ever seen (narrowly edging out Pine Valley, although that may change if I get the chance to actually play PV's one-shotters) and a collection of great Par 4's. But most importantly, every green was fascinating. For so long the back right has been considered the toughest location on the short hole, but I'm here to tell you that the pin they used for our US-Am qualifier, middle right outside the thumbprint, made that hole incredibly difficult. While the par 5's there aren't all worldly, they hold up better than most of Raynor's par 5's. Playing in that US Am qualifier remains one of the highlights of my life, and maybe the best moment of the trip for me. I'll tell the full story later.

Pinehurst No. 2: I went there with a preconceived thought in my head: Great course, but not worth the cost, made all the more aggravating by the fact that a caddie was required for one of golf's great walks. But I had a good caddie, and couldn't believe how good it was. It opened my eyes to creating target golf with contours, and that even on the most subtle land great holes are to be had. What a tremendous restoration done by C&C. One note though: They better pray that the weather works in their favor for the Open, because if the course is soft (I've heard the USGA is not putting in rough) the pros will tear the place apart.

Kiawah Ocean- Of the Pete Dye courses I've seen (and this does leave some of his better ones, like Pete Dye Golf Club, The Honors, Sawgrass, Crooked Stick) this was by far my favorite. There are some awesome golf holes there. I also thought the tee design was incredibly interesting and brings up a great question: How important is the aspect of strategy in golf course architecture for the weakest golfers? I noticed that many of the tee boxes for them faced wide open fairways, while the back tees (where I played from) had well placed hazards which strongly influenced decision making on the hole. Most bipolar round of the trip, as going out I shot 37 but proceeded to have a 45 on the back.

Pine Valley- I'm not going to do the place any injustice by saying anything on the matter. I'll just say, WOW.

Boston Golf Club- In my mind it's the only golf course you can compare to the hallowed one above. That place is about as good as anything I've ever seen. Gil challenged a lot of tenets in golf course architecture and the result is a golf course that is demanding, interesting, playable, and fun. Although I think, even now in November, I have a headache from trying to read those greens!

Winged Foot West AND East- This has to be the most unlikely place I ended up playing (we just played the west), as I enjoyed a round with my uncle's, college friend's, nephew. But both courses there are spectacular and I find the East to be rather underrated. Having seen some of the plans for Gil Hanse's work there, I'm really excited for the future of the two courses.

The National Golf Links of America- After a nightmare morning on the LIE, I finally made it out to Southampton for the Walker Cup practice round and got to see what the fuss was all about. Standing on the 18th green, I was in tears at the thought of leaving the place. Every hole there is perfect, and I think that it's here where there was more experimenting with the structure of the templates. I loved the Punchbowl rendition there and thought that it was very unique in comparison to the others. Not much more can be said about the Redan than already has. The Cape is the finest cape hole I've seen of theirs.

Just missing the cut: Lawsonia, Mid Pines, The Creek Club, Tobacco Road (which really did open my eyes a lot), Fenway, Old Sandwich, Stonewall (Old), Philadelphia Cricket Wissahickon (A course that by the looks of it could move into this group once the restoration/renovation is done)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 11:21:34 AM by Connor Dougherty »
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 07:33:26 AM »

Which courses did you wish you could have seen that you missed?

Which courses would you go see next summer?

How do the greens by Hanse at Boston GC compare to the ones at Rustic Canyon?

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 07:44:27 AM »

Oakmont- If I could just play golf at one course for the rest of my life, this might be it.

Connor, thanks for the recap - by any measure, that is a tremendous summer - congratulations and certainly a special thanks to all the people who made this happen for you...

I have to ask though, Oakmont is the course you would select for the rest of your life if you could only play one?  

I loved Oakmont and it is certainly a really special place no doubt - the history, the course, the people, etc.  I just can't see myself picking that one over some of the others on your list or even a handful of ones that didn't make the list.  Especially as one gets a little older - I just don't think I am that much of a masochist...

Now, as far as locker rooms to have a cold beer in after a round, Oakmont might be the place where I would choose...

Regardless, great post and thanks for sharing your adventures...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 10:44:21 AM by Chris Hufnagel »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 08:04:03 AM »

Kiawah Ocean- Of the Pete Dye courses I've seen (and this does leave some of his better ones, like Pete Dye Golf Club, The Honors, Sawgrass, Crooked Stick) this was by far my favorite. There are some awesome golf holes there. I also thought the tee design was incredibly interesting and brings up a great question: How important is the aspect of strategy in golf course architecture for the weakest golfers? I noticed that many of the tee boxes for them faced wide open fairways, while the back tees (where I played from) had well placed hazards which strongly influenced decision making on the hole. Most bipolar round of the trip, as going out I shot 37 but proceeded to have a 45 on the back.


I look forward to reading this thread and would love a bit more context about where you traveled and when.

As to your question about Kiawah, I played one of my favorite matches of my life from approximately 6300 yards against a guy who hit the ball about 180 yards, but used terrific tactics, had a great short game. and received several stokes from me.  So, at least from that distance, hazard placement had a huge influence and consistently required both of us to make decisions - me on when to be aggressive and him on when he needed to lay up and take an extra shot to get to the green.

Alice Dye's writings regarding forward tees would be a useful thing for you to read.

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 08:18:41 AM »
Connor, sounds like an awesome time.  Having done all of this travel in such a short period of time, regardless of length of season, what's your take on what region of the country makes for the best golf courses?  What aspects of courses did you find similar/different among those in the same region and how did certain courses stand above others in that same area? 

Cliff Walston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 10:39:24 AM »
Connor,

I was great fun meeting you out at Dismal.  Hope you continue your journey.  What an amazing summer indeed.  Look forward to teeing it up with you again sometime.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 11:32:22 AM »
Connor -

This is a great topic.

Your intro is very well written, and I look forward to the rest.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 11:34:40 AM »
Connor, I'm glad you made the PV and BGC comparison.  I completely agree with you regarding its ability to stand up to the best courses in the world. 

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 12:58:24 PM »
Connor,

Playing with you was bittersweet.  I never hit it as far as you, but at least I could get it into the same zip code and was typically able to find my ball.  Now, I am just short and crooked.  And my poise at your age- some might argue even now- was in a different league.  Knowing that there are sharp, talented, amiable young people like you out there leaves me feeling optimistic about the future.

I must, however, correct the record.  I was not the oldest in the group.  If I am not mistaken, we were beaten pretty soundly by one, the gentleman AKA "Bug".  Yes, he played better than me and certainly was in better shape as he carried his MacKenzie bag all 27 holes, but I think he had me by a year or two.

As to your summer itinerary, it would make a great bucket list for most.   I found your remarks on Oakmont particularly interesting in contrast to those made by another attendee to the 5th Major who played it a week or so earlier, finding it to be tediously difficult and without joy.  Perhaps some day I will have the opportunity to referee such contrasting opinions.  I look forward to your future installments.

Here's hoping that you have a successful year in college and that the right gca intern position opens up for you.   It was my pleasure and good fortune to have you as my partner.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:14:26 PM by Lou_Duran »

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 01:24:39 PM »

Oakmont- If I could just play golf at one course for the rest of my life, this might be it.
I have to ask though, Oakmont is the course you would select for the rest of your life if you could only play one?  

I loved Oakmont and it is certainly a really special place no doubt - the history, the course, the people, etc.  I just can't see myself picking that one over some of the others on your list or even a handful of ones that didn't make the list.  Especially as one gets a little older - I just don't think I am that much of a masochist...

Now, as far as locker rooms to have a cold beer in after a round, Oakmont might be the place where I would choose...

There are a lot of factors that go into that decision. First off I think you have to be able to play enough golf to keep your game together. I don't think I'd join Oakmont if I didn't have the time to play enough. But one of the things that I do like about it is it's the kind of place that makes you a better golfer. It teaches you to deal with adversity and challenges your game while remaining an incredibly sound architectural design. That last part is so important because there are way too many courses that thrive solely on difficulty and those can become dull over time.

The other thing is playing the course from the Open tees at 7255 brought all of the trouble into play on each of the holes. As was pointed out by the member I played with, if you move up a box that trouble is clearable for longer hitters, which we both were, and it makes the course much easier to play. Nonetheless, I think that round was the best 81 I have shot in my life.

I also didn't want to be generic and pick Pine Valley or Cypress (which I still haven't seen) or TOC and pick something a little bit more controversial and outside the box.

Quote from: Jason Topp

I look forward to reading this thread and would love a bit more context about where you traveled and when.

As to your question about Kiawah, I played one of my favorite matches of my life from approximately 6300 yards against a guy who hit the ball about 180 yards, but used terrific tactics, had a great short game. and received several stokes from me.  So, at least from that distance, hazard placement had a huge influence and consistently required both of us to make decisions - me on when to be aggressive and him on when he needed to lay up and take an extra shot to get to the green.

Jason,
I did notice that there was still plenty of relevant strategy at 6300 yards and that each of these holes feature tremendous short game areas. I had read Pete's book the week before playing it and so I was keeping a special eye out for the location of the shorter tee boxes. Kiawah's shortest sets usually faced wide open fairways which took much of the strategy out of the drive but still took advantage of some great green complexes. I couldn't help but think to myself that this is a great environment for a beginning golfer/weaker golfer to play the game on.

As for context of where I went, I'll do a brief summary here and go more in depth on it later:
Left the San Francisco Bay Area on June 21st
Was in Colorado from the 23rd to the 27th
5th Major at the end of the month
Up through Wisconsin, Chicago, and Michigan from July 1st-10th
Pittsburgh from the 11th to the 15th
Philadelphia/Jersey Shore 15th through the 27th
Cincinatti/Columbus from the 27th through the 1st of August
Down through West Virginia to Pinehurst from the 2nd to the 7th and South Carolina from the 7th to the 15th
Back up to Massachusetts from the 19th to the 26th with stops in DC and at Yale on the way
New York from the 27th thru the 6th of September
Down to Virginia for the Oregon game on the 7th
Drive back home

Quote from: Chris Detoro
Having done all of this travel in such a short period of time, regardless of length of season, what's your take on what region of the country makes for the best golf courses?  What aspects of courses did you find similar/different among those in the same region and how did certain courses stand above others in that same area?

That's an interesting question. As for what region makes for the best golf, probably that Pinehurst area because of how much space there is, the type of soil, and the quality of golf that does exist there. The collection of Ross courses is fantastic, but outside of Dormie Club, the new work there doesn't do justice to the land. There certain courses stand above others with their green complexes. Outside of Dormie there's not a whole lot of elevation change at the courses (There is, but not on the scale of some other places) but places like No. 2 have greens that you dream about and hazard placement that is as good as anything.

But the region with the best golf? Philadelphia, with New York being a close second. In Philly it's Pine Valley and Merion (which I didn't see but spent hours watching for the open and looking at it) on top, but the quality and depth of golf courses there, ranging from the more well known like Manufacturers, Huntingdon Valley, and Aronimink, to the lesser known courses like Lulu, French Creek, and Inniscrone, there's no area with better golf than that. I left and felt like there were still a ton of courses I needed to see. There, courses stand above others by the little things they get right and wrong, but there's so little disparity in the quality that I think for the most part picking between them just becomes a preference thing.

Quote from: Scott Weersing
Which courses did you wish you could have seen that you missed?
Which courses would you go see next summer?
How do the greens by Hanse at Boston GC compare to the ones at Rustic Canyon?

I'm going to go into which courses I wish I had seen/would see next summer later in the thread. As for the greens at BGC and Rustic, It's been a while since I've gotten the chance to play Rustic (I'm hoping if all goes right this final few weeks of college football I'll be down there to play it over winter break) but the one thing that sticks out in my mind is that BGC featured a lot more subtle breaks, while their larger contours seemed to be larger than those at Rustic in my memory. I would guess that Rustics are a bit simpler because it's a public course with a ton of play and if their greens were like BGC's 6 hour rounds would be the norm. I missed a few reads by feet at BGC, and missing your spot by inches could mean having a 4 footer instead of a tap in.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 02:49:42 PM »
As to your summer itinerary, it would make a great bucket list for most.   I found your remarks on Oakmont particularly interesting in contrast to those made by another attendee to the 5th Major who played it a week or so earlier, finding it to be tediously difficult and without joy.

Lou,
I remember that conversation quite well. It is brutal, and I did get it on a soft and slower day, so I haven't seen the entire beast. As I told the member I played with, I wouldn't suggest anyone with a handicap higher than 10, maybe 15 (unless you are very straight off the tee.) to be a member there. But for those with an index under that it's a tremendous place to keep the game in check and provides a wonderful test of golf.

Hope all is well,
Connor
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 03:14:47 PM »
Connor,

Very impressed. Looking forward to reading more. Do you have plans for a Phase II trip, say overseas, and if so, where to?

All the best
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:39:54 PM by Thomas Dai »

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 06:02:06 PM »
I was at a tournament a month or two ago with some of the best golfers from Cincinnati - most of them younger guys. We started talking about golf courses and they asked me what my favorite course in Cincinnati was. I said Camargo hands down. I also said it was the best in the state. They were stunned. They thought a number of courses in Cincy were better. And, most of them thought Muirfield Village was the best in the state. They thought Camargo was mickey mouse and too easy. I pointed out that no one ever really goes low at the Am qualifier.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 06:17:16 PM »
nice! well done Connor, keep it up, your life is a bowl of cherries

GO DUCKS!
It's all about the golf!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 06:32:23 PM »
"while remaining an incredibly sound architectural design"

Please explain.

What is an incredibly sound architectural design?
Why is Oakmont one?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2013, 07:03:32 PM »
"while remaining an incredibly sound architectural design"

Please explain.

What is an incredibly sound architectural design?
Why is Oakmont one?


Mucci-esque.  Have you played Oakmont?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2013, 07:08:03 PM »
"while remaining an incredibly sound architectural design"

Please explain.

What is an incredibly sound architectural design?
Why is Oakmont one?


Mucci-esque.  Have you played Oakmont?

Muccinception!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2013, 07:32:05 PM »
They thought Camargo was mickey mouse and too easy. I pointed out that no one ever really goes low at the Am qualifier.

That was pretty much the impression back in the 1970s when I tried to play in some tournaments.  Camargo was always great about holding qualifiers, but I know of only one guy in my group went to Cinci a couple of times because the course suited him (short hitter, great putter, even with an Otey Crisman).

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2013, 08:48:47 PM »
Connor, great to meet you and wow what a trip. Man, the even the courses missing the cut are solid! Don't forget the mastermind behind the Yale outing: Mike Sweeney.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2013, 09:29:37 PM »
I was at a tournament a month or two ago with some of the best golfers from Cincinnati - most of them younger guys. We started talking about golf courses and they asked me what my favorite course in Cincinnati was. I said Camargo hands down. I also said it was the best in the state. They were stunned. They thought a number of courses in Cincy were better. And, most of them thought Muirfield Village was the best in the state. They thought Camargo was mickey mouse and too easy. I pointed out that no one ever really goes low at the Am qualifier.

Those kids are crazy. There isn't a course in Cincinnati that is even in the conversation. And I echo your sentiment that it's the best in the 3 state OH-KY-IN region.

Connor, great meeting you dude. We will cross paths again and have a game. Best of luck in school this year. (That pin on the short WAS crazy!)

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2013, 10:49:31 PM »
I was at a tournament a month or two ago with some of the best golfers from Cincinnati - most of them younger guys. We started talking about golf courses and they asked me what my favorite course in Cincinnati was. I said Camargo hands down. I also said it was the best in the state. They were stunned. They thought a number of courses in Cincy were better. And, most of them thought Muirfield Village was the best in the state. They thought Camargo was mickey mouse and too easy. I pointed out that no one ever really goes low at the Am qualifier.

Those kids are crazy. There isn't a course in Cincinnati that is even in the conversation. And I echo your sentiment that it's the best in the 3 state OH-KY-IN region.

Connor, great meeting you dude. We will cross paths again and have a game. Best of luck in school this year. (That pin on the short WAS crazy!)

Yeah when Steve said these guys thought that "a number of courses in Cincy were better", I thought "which ones???"

Not that every player has to list Camargo as his own personal number one, but for a whole room full of guys to think that there are a bunch of better courses in the Cincinnati area is just silly. There are certainly courses that can be tougher on a good player's scorecard, but "better"? It can't be just due to youth. I first played Camargo when I was 15 and immediately knew it was easily the best course I'd ever played. I probably still feel that way.

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2013, 03:19:11 AM »
I was at a tournament a month or two ago with some of the best golfers from Cincinnati - most of them younger guys. We started talking about golf courses and they asked me what my favorite course in Cincinnati was. I said Camargo hands down. I also said it was the best in the state. They were stunned. They thought a number of courses in Cincy were better. And, most of them thought Muirfield Village was the best in the state. They thought Camargo was mickey mouse and too easy. I pointed out that no one ever really goes low at the Am qualifier.

Those kids are crazy. There isn't a course in Cincinnati that is even in the conversation. And I echo your sentiment that it's the best in the 3 state OH-KY-IN region.

Connor, great meeting you dude. We will cross paths again and have a game. Best of luck in school this year. (That pin on the short WAS crazy!)

Yeah when Steve said these guys thought that "a number of courses in Cincy were better", I thought "which ones???"

Not that every player has to list Camargo as his own personal number one, but for a whole room full of guys to think that there are a bunch of better courses in the Cincinnati area is just silly. There are certainly courses that can be tougher on a good player's scorecard, but "better"? It can't be just due to youth. I first played Camargo when I was 15 and immediately knew it was easily the best course I'd ever played. I probably still feel that way.

Wow I can't even begin to understand those guys.

I played with the current course record holder at Camargo (he shot 62 in a qualifier a few years back!) but he couldn't break par either of his rounds. Much like when they have US Am qualifiers at Pasatiempo, it's the fast greens combined with severe undulation that creates the test. Camargo's massive greens are reduced to tiny targets because ending up in the wrong spot can almost guarantee a 3 putt. The cut at this years qualifier was even, so none of those who played in it should be saying it's easy.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2013, 03:42:16 AM »
"while remaining an incredibly sound architectural design"

Please explain.

What is an incredibly sound architectural design?
Why is Oakmont one?


Mucci-esque.  Have you played Oakmont?

I actually like this question a lot.

I think the easiest answer is that an "architecturally sound design" is a design which stands up well in the mind of the viewer. We're all looking for different things in a golf course.

So what's my definition? I think the golf course should require thought and strategy throughout the round, persuade the golfer to take risks but not force them upon him more than a few times per round. One that possesses green complexes which create targets but also inspire creativity.
Lastly, a routing which possesses holes that tie together well while providing variety and uniqueness.

The reason why I used it in the description for Oakmont is that so often courses of its difficulty force risk on the player with no alternative option. Oakmont doesn't do that. Take the 2nd, 14th, and 17th holes as examples: All tremendous short par 4's where you can put driver in your hand (each with varying difficulty of how well you can execute that shot) and attack their greens but the punishment for missing is severe. Meanwhile, laying up with an iron/wood is a very reasonable and safe option on all of those holes.

Quote from: Thomas Dai
Very impressed. Looking forward to reading more. Do you have plans for a Phase II trip, say overseas, and if so, where to?

I'm hoping to save up money again for the next few years and do something similar in Europe...perhaps for a bit longer. My mother grew up in the Netherlands and I'm a Dutch citizen so it makes it pretty easy getting around there.

I'm also really lucky to have parents (particularly my mom) who love to travel and as a result I get to piggy back on a lot of trips which take me to some cool courses. It was how I got to see some of the courses down in Australia a few years back and the Kohler courses (my mom wanted to see the Milwaukee Art Museum, and, WOW that place is cool) two and a half years ago as well.

The two places my mom has been dying to go recently have been Buenos Aires (Jockey Club) and Cape Breton Island (Cabot and Highlands Links). While she's not a golfer, we find a lot of trips we get to take together in which we get to do things both of us want to do.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2013, 01:07:04 PM »
...
So what's my definition? I think the golf course should require thought and strategy throughout the round, persuade the golfer to take risks but not force them upon him more than a few times per round. One that possesses green complexes which create targets but also inspire creativity.
Lastly, a routing which possesses holes that tie together well while providing variety and uniqueness.

The reason why I used it in the description for Oakmont is that so often courses of its difficulty force risk on the player with no alternative option. Oakmont doesn't do that. Take the 2nd, 14th, and 17th holes as examples: All tremendous short par 4's where you can put driver in your hand (each with varying difficulty of how well you can execute that shot) and attack their greens but the punishment for missing is severe. Meanwhile, laying up with an iron/wood is a very reasonable and safe option on all of those holes.
...

"should require thought and strategy throughout the round" "2nd, 14th, and 17th" "put driver in your hand"  "laying up with an iron/wood is a very reasonable and safe option"

Is deciding to hit it long or short enough thought and strategy to be architecturally sound?
Three holes definitely don't qualify as throughout. What other holes require thought and strategy?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The end of the best summer of my life: Discussion on Amazing Courses
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2013, 01:29:37 PM »
Connor:
I see that you traveled through DC.  Did you see any courses here?  I certainly wouldn't expect any of them to crack your list, would just be curious which (if any) you played and what you thought.
Carl

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back