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Jason Thurman

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Re: Are shot values a tangible or intangible item in GCA?
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2013, 08:41:40 AM »
David, that's really interesting data. I don't have any answers, but I have a few questions or at least things to ponder.

I threw out a half-ass example definition of a measurement formula for shot values. I think to create anything meaningful we'd have to define what we consider to be important elements of determining the presence of shot values. I would think that such a formula should account for a few things:

1. Presence of options
2. Quantifying of risk (as it pertains to the risk/reward option)
3. Quantifying of reward (as it pertains to the risk/reward option)
4. Balance between risk, reward, and the conservative option and how their scoring averages compare (whether or not there is a "right way" to play a given hole)
5. Variety of shots tested by a course (woods, long irons, mid irons, short irons, wedges)
6. Quantifying of how players choose between the options present (with the idea being that it's ideal if each option is chosen with near equal frequency)

Maybe there are other things, and maybe some of the things above really wouldn't matter that much. As for 10 at Riviera, it sounds like maybe it wouldn't score all that high on factors 2 and 3 (probably just a function of its short length). Factor 5 doesn't apply outside the context of the whole course. But it would score pretty well on 1, 4, and 6. For a hole of its length, it may still pose pretty strong shot values. To contrast it with another short 4 that's been discussed a lot here lately, 13 at Kingsley might have a much higher dispersion of scores, particularly on the higher end of the spectrum. But I also suspect that dispersion at Kingsley may occur regardless of whether the conservative or risk/reward option were chosen by a player off the tee. It seems to me that Kingsley's 13th would score higher on factor 6, and possibly higher on factors 2 and 3, but lower on factor 4 because it may not actually have a "conservative" option statistically.

I'm sure you'd also want to weight certain factors more strongly than others, though I'm not sure which ones would be most important. I almost think 4 and 6 are most important, while 2 and 3 are less important. After all, whlie the numbers may tell us, hypothetically, that a feature like the Road Hole bunker really isn't all that dangerous, it still would play pretty strongly into the decisions that players make when they're in the moment. Others may disagree with me entirely though.

Josh makes a good point about standard deviation's role in all this. Tour players are so good that there may never be a tournament hole that consistently generates a wide dispersion of frequently occurring scores. Those guys just don't make disastrous numbers very often. But holes like 13 at Augusta still would offer more opportunity for scoring swings than most, and there would definitely be a way to quantify that.

One last thought: I was talking with my teaching pro the other day about some of the advanced metrics Tour guys use. The "strokes gained putting" statistic has become pretty well known, but it's not the only statistic of its kind. Players now can receive data on how many strokes they gained or lost on each swing during a round. A drive 6 yards wide of center in the fairway may gain .08 strokes while a layup on a par 5 may lose .13 strokes, and they can see that data. I don't know how the formula that evaluates each shot is written, but if the value of a shot execution can already be calculated then maybe that gives a blueprint for calculating the overall shot values present on a hole relative to the options it presents.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are shot values a tangible or intangible item in GCA?
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2013, 09:06:03 AM »
LIke I said, I don't have the breakdowns for percentages for the other scores for each option (if I have time I will try and dig them up.)  I think they were fairly even for each option, but don't recall for sure.  But let's assume that in the aggregate, that golfers had the same chance of making birdie, par, bogie or double whether laying up or not.  Would that mean that this was somehow not a good hole?  That is the implication of the suggested methodologies above, isn't it?

That's not the case at all.  In fact I think this is where a "shot value" statistic would actually become really useful.  We've been talking about is a hole score value - a true "shot value" stat would be able to assign a value to every shot - not just a differing strategy.  What I think this could do, would show that even though there are two distinct options, the value placed on either is actually very similar to the other.  In theory the "shot value" would be able to show that the approach is the "most valuable" shot on the hole.

I don't have the time, the data, or the ability to develop any semblance of an actual formula, but I find the subject pretty fascinating.  I actually don't know if there is actually a tie in back to architecture other than that I think a true statistic would find that all courses are defended from  the green back.  There wouldn't be much value placed on tee shots and probably too much placed on approach shots.


Andy Troeger

Re: Are shot values a tangible or intangible item in GCA?
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2013, 09:10:08 AM »
I think some of you make this too complicated. Using the GD definition shot values asks two questions (paraphrasing a bit):

1. Does the course offer risk/reward situations? On an even more simple level...how much does the course make you think? Ask that question on every shot and see how often you answer "yes."

2. Does the course have balance between length, accuracy, and finesse? Again to simplify, does the course create interest for all facets of the game? Are there a few long holes? Are there a few holes that perhaps do require a straight shot? Are the green complexes interesting?

All of these questions ask the golfer to make a judgment on some level--so I think there has to be some level of subjectivity involved. I also have to argue for intangibility simply because you can't hold a shot value in your hand and it can be hard to define.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are shot values a tangible or intangible item in GCA?
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2013, 09:13:24 AM »
1. Presence of options
2. Quantifying of risk (as it pertains to the risk/reward option)
3. Quantifying of reward (as it pertains to the risk/reward option)
4. Balance between risk, reward, and the conservative option and how their scoring averages compare (whether or not there is a "right way" to play a given hole)
5. Variety of shots tested by a course (woods, long irons, mid irons, short irons, wedges)
6. Quantifying of how players choose between the options present (with the idea being that it's ideal if each option is chosen with near equal frequency)


Jason, I'm not sure that it would have to take into account those things....because the quantifying of risk/reward gets back into a subjective value.  Like I had mentioned before, I look at as being something similar to win probability...and here is a good description of WP from the site I linked earlier

Quote
The usefulness of WP goes beyond fan curiosity about whether the home team has a chance to win (but that's interesting in itself). Take a situation in baseball with a team down by 1 run in the 9th inning. There's a runner on first base and no outs. Should the manager call for the steal? WP should instruct his decision. We could calculate the WP of the steal decision by totaling the WPs of the potential outcomes. The WP of the steal decision would be:

WP(steal) = Pr(successful steal) * WP(runner on 2nd, no outs) + Pr(caught stealing) * WP (no runners, 1 out)

Much like you are talking about in your last paragraph...some sort of "Par Probability" would take into account things like:

Proximity to hole from location
Percentage hit into bunker
Percentage up & down from bunker
Percentage of one-putts on green
and etc. etc.

A long list of quantifiable things.  And from the sounds of it maybe someone has figured out a similar statistic with the general strokes gained.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are shot values a tangible or intangible item in GCA?
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2013, 09:13:35 AM »
Josh,

The tie back to architecture is clear.

The players job is to shoot the lowest score they can by figuring out the best way to play a hole (and the individual shots within the hole). The architects job is to make that effort challenging and interesting for as many players as possible.

Having facts to support our instincts will help the architects create more engaging courses.



Jason,

Quite simply; how can an aggregation of others players results mean anything to me as I play a shot?

I've always approached course management as a guestimate of some sort around this "shot value" idea but the only way I can see it becoming viable for me is with my results.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are shot values a tangible or intangible item in GCA?
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2013, 02:06:00 PM »
1. Presence of options
2. Quantifying of risk (as it pertains to the risk/reward option)
3. Quantifying of reward (as it pertains to the risk/reward option)
4. Balance between risk, reward, and the conservative option and how their scoring averages compare (whether or not there is a "right way" to play a given hole)
5. Variety of shots tested by a course (woods, long irons, mid irons, short irons, wedges)
6. Quantifying of how players choose between the options present (with the idea being that it's ideal if each option is chosen with near equal frequency)

I guess I just don't see these things as conducive to quantification in any sort of meaningful manner.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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