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Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ally,

Maybe you're on to something here - the Chaos School of Architecture.


Sean,

Just to clarify, which segment is it great for - a major championship professional field?


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I'm curious to hear if any of those who have played it think it's a great course for the 99% of players and for the 1% of players?  For a point of reference, does it fit in the top 10 in the UK?  In the world?  Top 100 in the world?  What would it knock off?  Is it a Doak 10 or 9?

Personally, I thought it was a big bold brash modern American take on links golf.  I'd happily play it again if not for the price, but on my annual visits it would be a tough choice to play there rather than Dornoch, or North Berwick or Prestwick or Cruden Bay or Royal Aberdeen or Carnoustie or ...........  So in that sense it doesn't fit, at this point, in the great category for me.  Perhaps with time.  For me the repetitiveness of the raised greens and the over-bunkering and some mundane holes, 2 and 11 for instance, create too many demerit points.  But it is very good, in my opinion, and the conditioning is first rate.

For the professionals, if and when they get there, I'd question if it is long enough at 7400 yards on a par of 72.  Of course, they could play the 7th as a long par 3 for those guys. And, the wind, which is almost always there could be the great equalizer given the high tees.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bryan

I think Trump is great for the stronger players, not so much for the mid to high markers.  That said, it is my impression the course was designed with flat bellies very much in mind; the focus on aerial golf is testament to this.  Plus, it has to be said the setting is outstanding and that matters, at least to me if not Mucci.  To put Trump in context with with Trump's goal of attracting championship play, I would say it falls behind

TOC
Sandwich
Muirfield
Birkdale
Hoylake

6th in the rota isn't bad in the least.  

By my reckoning, I have played 35 great courses and I think Trump is one of those.  Even so, its hard to see how Trump makes top 25 in GB&I - it has stiff competition.  In the end though, the views will win the day and I will be very surprised if Trump doesn't "officially" settle comfortably in the top 20, maybe top 10 with a bit of luck if it actually hosts something important.  While not the world beater, this is not a bad stab at it for a course trying to accommodate flat bellies.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 05:29:00 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bryan,

It was my friend Nick Norton who initially advocated the “chaos theory of strategy”, a term I immediately stole because I liked it so much. When you think about golf course designers’ well thought out attempts to create strategy in their bunkering and then think about how often that strategy manifests itself in the way the majority play, it is very rare. By contrast, drop 100 bunkers anywhere around a course (ala The Old Course to an extent) and you will inevitably have to think quite often about your next shot.

On another point, I will disagree with you that Trump is a “big, bold, brash, modern American” take on links golf… I think it is quintessentially a Hawtree design – their / his marks are all over the course. I guess that doesn’t in itself differentiate it from your description. But it is Hawtree first, other descriptions come after.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0

On another point, I will disagree with you that Trump is a “big, bold, brash, modern American” take on links golf… I think it is quintessentially a Hawtree design – their / his marks are all over the course. I guess that doesn’t in itself differentiate it from your description. But it is Hawtree first, other descriptions come after.


I think you're both saying the same thing in this para, albeit in different ways. I agree it has a lot of Hawtree characteristics. But which is the quintessential Hawtree links? Birkdale! Which is the poster boy for big, bold and modern in the links world.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean did you actually pay a £190 or whatever they ask to play Trump? I thought you got grumpy overs bullseye?
Cave Nil Vino

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks all for the continued commentary.  

Rich, you played on ahead on 18.  I haven't gotten there at my measured pace.  After I get there, I'd like to hear from you about how many Rhichelin *'s the course got in total and how that total might fit in in your rating system.


Sorry for playing through, Bryan, but my bags were packed, waitin' to go, taxi driver's blowin' his horn.....

As to my overall evaluation of TIGLS, I given it 2**, basically because I don't give 3*** to any course that is still in adolescence and has some fixable flaws, but also because Tom Doak would never speak to me again if I ranked it higher than Pacific Dunes.....  I 've given 3*** to only 15 or 20 courses in the world that I have played and I doubt if there are more than another 10 to 15 out there that I haven't played and deserve it, at least to my standards (which are largely, but not completely, summed up by Michelin's "worth the journey" criterion).

So, what exactly does it have and does it not have?  Firstly, is it potentially an Open Course?  Undoubtedly!  In fact, from the tips and with a decent amount of variable wind and a more mature, fast and firm greensward and some fairly minor tweaking it could possibly be THE best course on the Open Rota, IF the main criterion was the Tatumesque "to identify the greatest golfers in the world."  It is a more demanding challenge than Carnoustie and requires more thought than Sandwich, and Muirfield and the Old Course combined.  Eye Candy wise it makes Turnberry look like Pacific Grove.  It has ample space to accommodate 40-50,000+ spectators/day.  And yet....

....to fully accommodate all these people it will need to build all the infrastructure on the property that is planned but not yet even started.  A major hotel.  Further rental accomomodation.  A megaclubhouse.  Civil Engineering to allow internal open spaces/wetlands to be able to take grandstandands, walkways, toilets and other temporary out on the course facilities.  This will take at least 5-10 years to complete, once it has started.  Finally, dealing with the people at the site pales with the challenge of dealing with the problem of getting people to the site.  As it is today, the ONLY road from Aberdeen to TIGLS is mostly single carriage (i.e. one lane going each way), and the roads from Inverness and the North are even worse.  Now there is a "Ring Road" well into the planning stage which will bypass the city of Aberdeen and otherwise improve the traffic from other places such as Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow, but it too is probably at leas 5-10 years from completion.  I think that TIGLS will hold an Open, but I'm not sure it will be in the Donald's lifetime.

Meanwhile, however, the existence and quality of the course should significantly improve the north side of Aberdeen as a "worth the journey" golfing destination.  Added to Royal Aberdeen, Murcar and Cruden Bay I consider it now to be a comparable to Bandon, even without any significant supporting infrastructure.  When that comes, watch out!

Rich

PS--I've seen briefly the "debates" regarding the 16th at Tiggles, and it being the poster child for over-bunkering on a short par-3 on a links course.  All I can say is the Wardian war cry:  "Wake up and smell the coffee, Pilgrims!"  I find it hard to remember any seriously good short par-3 (on a links course, Scottish or otherwise, or even on any course, come to think of it) where you can actually land short and run your ball up to the green, without encountering a hazard (including seriously sloped false front for those without fronting bunkers (e.g. Brora #6)) .  Yes, Dr. MacK (or any of us) could putt our ball onto the green of the 11th at the Old Course from the (forward) tee, but only eventually and probably leading us to holing out for a 6 or a 7.  Those of you who think otherwise, please jog my memory as to on which decent short holes you regularly hit a running shot onto the green.

Thanks

rfg

Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
PS--I've seen briefly the "debates" regarding the 16th at Tiggles, and it being the poster child for over-bunkering on a short par-3 on a links course.  All I can say is the Wardian war cry:  "Wake up and smell the coffee, Pilgrims!"  I find it hard to remember any seriously good short par-3 (on a links course, Scottish or otherwise, or even on any course, come to think of it) where you can actually land short and run your ball up to the green, without encountering a hazard (including seriously sloped false front for those without fronting bunkers (e.g. Brora #6)) .  Yes, Dr. MacK (or any of us) could putt our ball onto the green of the 11th at the Old Course from the (forward) tee, but only eventually and probably leading us to holing out for a 6 or a 7.  Those of you who think otherwise, please jog my memory as to on which decent short holes you regularly hit a running shot onto the green.
Always at the 15th just up the road at Cruden Bay, and, although it has one bunker (way, way short) normally the 3rd just south at Royal Aberdeen or, a bit further south, the 16th at Montrose which, despite the bunkers, normally needs a well hit run and bounce and chase to get on the green. And oh yes, the tiny wee 8th at Royal Aberdeen is frequently, especially if windy (ie normally), best played with a long/mid-iron punch-chip landing well short and running up onto the green (no hazards the front).
All the best.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 02:26:18 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rich,

regarding the 16th the criticism from my part is the bunkering not that it should be without any form of defence in front of the green. I am wide awake and enjoying smelling the coffee Rich but it is not a jar of the instant budget stuff you seem to be sniffing ;).

Jon
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 02:56:33 PM by Jon Wiggett »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas,

You may be the only person alive who considers the 15th at Cruden Bay to be a short par 3.  You're probably also in a minority considering it to be a decent hole!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas,
You may be the only person alive who considers the 15th at Cruden Bay to be a short par 3.  You're probably also in a minority considering it to be a decent hole!
Okay, okay, 15-luv, although I have seen the 15th green hit with an 8-iron from the tee, and I may well be in the minority in thinking it's a (more than) decent hole!! Selection of the short 8th at RAGC should get me out of jail though!
All the best

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