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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2013, 06:16:58 AM »
Mark,

These changes really increase my desire to spend many hours on a plane and several thousand dollars to play a piece of history.  If I want questionable architectural changes made by overzealous memberships I merely have to stroll down the block.  And if your argument is that maintaining the championship bonafides of the course with GCA doctoring is in the town's best economic interests,  well I have plenty of courses at home that fit that description as well.  Oh well, at least you've still got the photo op on the bridge.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2013, 08:12:25 AM »
Don - TOC is far too important to the entire St Andrews economy to have it protected. Also golf courses are living things they change through time, why is now the time to stop developing the course?

Mark,

Inadvertently this post makes a solid point: the reason historic preservation societies and laws exist is to protect things of special value to from mismanagement. Not to block or prevent all change, just poorly thought and / or poorly executed change. And of course there's an outright flaw in the post: heritage is big business!

Anyway, moving back to the facts of the changes proper:

4 months = time ANGC took to rebuild 14th green*
~2 weeks = time Hawtree took to flatten 11th green at TOC


*http://www.masters.com/en_US/news/articles/2013-04-08/201304081365434839533.html
Check out steps taken and be sure to click on time-lapse sequence of work being completed.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2013, 08:34:38 AM »
Anyway, moving back to the facts of the changes proper:

4 months = time ANGC took to rebuild 14th green*
~2 weeks = time Hawtree took to flatten 11th green at TOC


*http://www.masters.com/en_US/news/articles/2013-04-08/201304081365434839533.html
Check out steps taken and be sure to click on time-lapse sequence of work being completed.

Four months seems like a ridiculously long time to rebuild one green. Judging by the time lapse footage not much happened for alot of that time. I am sure if Augusta cared about disruption to play as the R&A and Links Trust will do, they would have built it a hell of a lot quicker. I've just been part of a project that rebuilt 14 greens to USGA spec (all alot smaller than the 14th at ANGC though!) all to their original contouring (with a few minor changes to improve drainage) in just under 5 weeks.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2013, 09:19:48 AM »
Tom,

Thank you for buttressing the point of the contrast: the work on TOC 11 was done quickly to keep the revenue flowing (and / or to present a fait accompli). Had they quality standards equal to ANGC's more time would have been taken at least to ensure:
1) the work could be undone (as close as possible) by future generations;
2) the quality of the plastic surgery was up to the standards set by the hole and by the stewards of other major championship venues.

Regarding the time ANGC spent, clearly you know more about this than I do but my guess is ANGC wanted to give the ground time to settle to ensure they replicated the contours precisely. Does that make sense? Even so, some golfers at this year's Masters insisted the contour on a section of the green did in fact change—highlighting the complex nature of rebuilding a green for *major championship* standards.

Cheers,
Mark

Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2013, 09:57:18 AM »
Mark -

I don't think think the issue is whether the work is being done badly or well.

The issue is whether you make changes to TOC that are not necessitated by normal wear and tear, by turf/drainage issues or by other things that affect the integrity of the cocurse. There should be a strong presumption that any other kind of change must satisfy a high burden of proof that the change is required.

That's because TOC is one of those rare courses whose historical importance overshadows its importance as a championship venue. The only other courses that come to mind that fit in that exclusive grouping are maybe NGLA, PVGC and CPC.

Bob  


Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2013, 10:33:59 AM »
Tom,

Thank you for buttressing the point of the contrast: the work on TOC 11 was done quickly to keep the revenue flowing (and / or to present a fait accompli). Had they quality standards equal to ANGC's more time would have been taken at least to ensure:
1) the work could be undone (as close as possible) by future generations;
2) the quality of the plastic surgery was up to the standards set by the hole and by the stewards of other major championship venues.

Regarding the time ANGC spent, clearly you know more about this than I do but my guess is ANGC wanted to give the ground time to settle to ensure they replicated the contours precisely. Does that make sense? Even so, some golfers at this year's Masters insisted the contour on a section of the green did in fact change—highlighting the complex nature of rebuilding a green for *major championship* standards.

Cheers,
Mark

Firstly I'd like to say that I am against the changes but I am confident in saying the quality of the "plastic surgery" will most certainly be up to the required standards and I would be hugely surprised if an accurate survey of the green was not done before any work was carried out as it was most likely used to determine the changes in the grades needed to gain a pin placement. There should be a record somewhere of the green prior to the works. To be fair to Augusta it will have taken slightly longer to build their greens due to the drainage, heating and sub-air systems installed, but even working with the utmost care you can only take so long to rebuild a green and it doesn't take 4 months! I can't see any other benefit to keeping the ground open for so long, all it is doing is leaving the green open to damage from the elements, which as I am sure you know on the east coast of Scotland during the winter months is quite a risk to take. Any advantage of letting the ground 'settle' would be lost with one heavy down pour or some high winds. They were probably pleased to get the work done so quickly and get the turf back on before the weather came in.

I really don't think the time taken is an issue at all.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 10:48:00 AM by Tom Kelly »

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2013, 04:06:10 PM »
Mark - if you looked at Wimbledon 20 years ago a committee could have decided it was the perfect tennis environment and placed a preservation order on the entire site. Time has told us continued development at the All England Club was required to keep the place up to date and relevant.

Say someone looked at Silverstone in 1965 and placed a heritage order on the place as surely Grand Prix cars "have reached their full potential", it would now host corporate driving days.

Who are we to say TOC is at it's sublime peak and no further development should take place? In 25 years it maybe unsuitable for the Open and that would be a disaster for St Andrews and their economy.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2013, 06:26:44 PM »
Mark,

Two of the worst analogies I have seen (a tennis court is a standard dimension, the problem at Silvrstone wasn't the track) and a bold statement lacking in any supporting evidence.  TOC has continued, despite what it's critics might say, to produce worthy champions.  There is simply no evidence at all that it was incapable of continuing to be a fine Major championship course, less evidence still that if the Open left St Andrews then the tourist dollars would leave too.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2013, 09:19:31 AM »

TOC has continued, despite what it's critics might say, to produce worthy champions.  There is simply no evidence at all that it was incapable of continuing to be a fine Major championship course, less evidence still that if the Open left St Andrews then the tourist dollars would leave too.  

Agreed. I might express the same thought slightly differently.

Because of TOC's unique historical status, no changes should be made to it if their purpose is to strengthen TOC's resistance to scoring as an Open venue. Moreover, based on scoring in the last two Opens held there, there's no reason to think that toughening TOC is needed in any event.

Changes to TOC should be limited to repairs as needed to retain the basic integrity of the historic course.  

Bob

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2013, 02:57:56 AM »
As far as i know all of the original greens of TOC have been surveyed in detail with very accurate digital methods. I remember seeing a very detailed contour map of the 11th in one of the ads of Golf Course Architecture Magazine. That means when in 10 years the changes are deemed to have been a failure, another architect or group of architects will be able to pretty much put back exactly what was there in the first place.

As to the person who will take over from Mr Dawson, I think there could be a change. I have spoken with enough senior R&A members who are very upset with what happened and is happening at TOC, and I would not be surprised if that has consequences for the type of person that will get the job next and the remit and powers he gets towards TOC and other open courses.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2013, 08:09:12 AM »
Tom,

Thank you for buttressing the point of the contrast: the work on TOC 11 was done quickly to keep the revenue flowing (and / or to present a fait accompli). Had they quality standards equal to ANGC's more time would have been taken at least to ensure:
1) the work could be undone (as close as possible) by future generations;
2) the quality of the plastic surgery was up to the standards set by the hole and by the stewards of other major championship venues.

Regarding the time ANGC spent, clearly you know more about this than I do but my guess is ANGC wanted to give the ground time to settle to ensure they replicated the contours precisely. Does that make sense? Even so, some golfers at this year's Masters insisted the contour on a section of the green did in fact change—highlighting the complex nature of rebuilding a green for *major championship* standards.

Cheers,
Mark



Mark

What you seem to forget is that TOC is a locals course as well as a resort course and championship course. No properly run members course, other than those high end second courses for the comfortably wealthy eg. Loch Lomond, would look at taking 4 months to rebuild a green. Golf isn't just a summer game in the UK, local members look to play the course all year round and I'm sure that the Links Trust would be mindful of that.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2013, 08:17:23 AM »
Mark -

I don't think think the issue is whether the work is being done badly or well.

The issue is whether you make changes to TOC that are not necessitated by normal wear and tear, by turf/drainage issues or by other things that affect the integrity of the cocurse. There should be a strong presumption that any other kind of change must satisfy a high burden of proof that the change is required.

That's because TOC is one of those rare courses whose historical importance overshadows its importance as a championship venue. The only other courses that come to mind that fit in that exclusive grouping are maybe NGLA, PVGC and CPC.

Bob  



Bob

I agree totally that change should be properly thought out and that as part of that process the reason for change should be justified. Where I differ from you is that change should be merited rather than required. For change to be required, that suggests to me that the only kind of change that would satisfy that criteria would be for agronomy or safety reasons. Merited change on the other hand allows scope for other considerations including but not exclusively reasons relating to the use of the course as a championship venue.

Niall    

Graylyn Loomis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2013, 02:28:47 PM »
New round of Old Course renovation photos taken this morning. Below are photos of the work (more photos available here: http://bit.ly/1b6Cyn0)

Fairway bunker work has begun on the 3rd hole:



Perhaps most interesting, after initially completing work on the 4th hole, all of the sod has been pulled up and the area right of the green has been completely reshaped:



Reshaping is complete green side on the 6th hole, which is now be re-sodded:



The new bunker is going in on the 9th:



Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2013, 03:52:26 PM »
That work by the 4th green looks like trade mark Hawtree shaping, at least if his work at Tiggles is typical.  Criminal he should be allowed to do that at St Andrews.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2013, 07:04:08 PM »
That work by the 4th green looks like trade mark Hawtree shaping, at least if his work at Tiggles is typical.  Criminal he should be allowed to do that at St Andrews.

Mark

Hawtree likes to add these contours to all his remodel jobs.  He doesn't like flat land!

Playing competition golf as a kid in England I was familiar with Martin Hawtree's work, we played courses like Little Hay and Mowsbury which at best would be described here as "functional" and many would class as basically "dog tracks".

How Hawtree has come to such prominence in recent years is incredible...some remodel work at Birkdale, Lahinch, Dooks and now he's given permission to dig up parts of The Old Course?

All because you head the oldest practicing architectural firm??
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2013, 07:18:39 PM »
My thoughts? I'm glad I played TOC in 1984. I now have very little interest in returning.

My question: Does St. Andrews make more money from TOC being a tourist destination, or from hosting The Open Championship every five years or so?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2013, 08:07:25 PM »
My question: Does St. Andrews make more money from TOC being a tourist destination, or from hosting The Open Championship every five years or so?
Rick, in my view it is primarily the former, although it keeps its prominence cf. the likes of Prestwick because of the Open and the Dunhill. I have no doubt that demand to play TOC would drop over time if it no longer hosted the Open and/or professional golf.

I refuse to accept that the work they're doing at the moment is the difference between staying on the rota and being dropped though.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2013, 10:42:28 PM »
I wonder whether Dawson and Hawtree actually believe that putting a few artificial undulations to the right of a green is going to make the hole play one iota harder for professionals? I forgot that Hawtree doesn't play, so creating undulations like these must be rather an abstract exercise for him.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2013, 04:05:43 AM »
My thoughts? I'm glad I played TOC in 1984. I now have very little interest in returning.

My question: Does St. Andrews make more money from TOC being a tourist destination, or from hosting The Open Championship every five years or so?

Rick,

the Links Trust makes more money from tourist play in regard to TOC and I would hazard a guess that the R&A make more money from the Open.

Jon

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2013, 10:58:01 AM »
Can someone explain to me how the "Hawtree Ridges" play in reality.  Do balls collect in the lower areas?  Do the ridges provide channels up to the green?

If balls do tend to collect in lower areas, will this present maintenance issues for a "high traffic" course?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:59:53 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2013, 12:50:33 PM »
This has got to be the single most outrageous thing happening in the world of golf, and all we can muster is a few yokels like us howling at the moon.  Really depressing.  File under "Signs of the Apocalypse"....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2013, 12:54:01 PM »
Well, the good news, according to John Huggan, is that the Mona Lisa's mustache is growing in nicely. Quite appropriate for Movember.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2013, 01:03:32 PM »
So, it appears they are cutting sod in about 24 inch squares.  Then, if the contours from where the sod is cut, to be stacked on the side for replacement after the contour has been changed; doesn't that leave several odd areas where 'fitter' pieces need to cover new exposed spaces between the areas from where the original contoured sod was taken up, and the new dimensions created and old sod replaced?  Do they use the sod taken from the top of where a new bunker is being cut, and that sod becomes waste from that space and used in fitter required areas?

Years ago there was an article in Golf Course Management Magazine detailing the work of the grounds crew and the cultural practices on TOC.  It spoke of differences in the working environment in areas of both the working conditions and cultural practices between US workplace expectations and methods.   The workers and superintendent of TOC with regardis to the difference in the expectations of the average work week hours of US supers and the TOC superintendent and assistants was one of more respect for length of work day which I think might be a reflection on the more European views on that matter.   But, the cultural practices of topdressing and aeration, and IPM, etc, were also quite different.  I remember the article pointing to the source of topdressing sand as local beach sand, and also more simplified mechanical practices.

What I don't remember from that article was the issue of turf re-seeding when or if needed, sod nursery practices and maintaining the turf sward as the natural evolved stand of cultivars.  

If these newly resodded and open areas need re-seeding or over-slit seeding, what seed do they use?  Do they use cores to provide sprigging on a turf nursery in order to maintain the evolved characteristic of the local blend of cultivars and that is what they use exclusively for restored area replacement?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St Andrews Old Course Renovations, Phase 2 (Photos)
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2013, 01:27:21 PM »
RJ,

You raise a good point about laying the sod back down over the new contours. All these humps and bumps that are being designed around the greens will increase the square footage of the terrain and there will be a shortage of sod.

There is probably a sod nursery somewhere on the site where they can cut what they need to complete the project. Or he may just relocate sod from the next project.

These little bumps around the greens are probably designed to function like half-hazards - just to make golfers feel uncomfortable in their stance. But they will probably act like full hazards when the conditions are firm - the balls will kick and run in very unpredictable ways. That whole section near the green will be avoided because no one will know what to expect from a ball that lands there.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:29:14 PM by Bradley Anderson »