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Steve Kline

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Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club on tap
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2013, 08:41:09 AM »
Bill - the gunch didn't look like that during the Dixie Cup just one month ago. It was thick, tall, and impenetrable. Supposedly they cut it down in the fall every year.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club on tap New
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2013, 08:57:49 AM »
Re: 15 at the a Dormie Club, it's apparent that C&C have a higher opinion of the average player's carry distance reality.  When I played it first a couple of years ago, the gunch shirt if the fairway was impenetrable.  Lost ball.  Look now, it's not only possible to find a ball in there but it will likely be playable.  There has been much bush hogging. 

The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there.  ::) ::) .   I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards. 

Otherwise there are a lot of really good holes, possibly not including 10, and I love the golf only, small clubhouse, low key vibe. 

Re: 15 at the a Dormie Club, it's apparent that C&C have a higher opinion of the average player's carry distance reality.  When I played it first a couple of years ago, the gunch shirt if the fairway was impenetrable.  Lost ball.  Look now, it's not only possible to find a ball in there but it will likely be playable.  There has been much bush hogging. 

The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there.  ::) ::) .   I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards. 

Otherwise there are a lot of really good holes, possibly not including 10, and I love the golf only, small clubhouse, low key vibe. 

Ace

You need a bit of luck to find your ball if you are just short of making the carry.  Anything much further toward the middle is pretty much a lost cause - no place to drop.  You would have to be extremely lucky to get a play out of that crap.  Those chaps pictured were hacking away!

I liked the forward tee on 15.  Other than the long walk, it really helps make the hole workable for all - feeling like a punk or no.  On the other hand, if there are no restrictions about the wet area, a bridge feeding to the short tee would be awesome. 

DORMIE CLUB CONT.

Strip away the sand and #16 is a fairly basic short hole, though not quite a dumb blonde 8) .


The penultimate hole was the most surprising for me.  I hadn't registered that we were so far below the level of the house.  I knew over the first part of the front nine there was a gradual descent, but I failed to pick up on the ascent.  I have been critical of the three-shotters and I am afraid that trend continues.  I am not sure this hole works well as a par 5.  After a lovely drive, the second is a pure lay-up, leaving a tough third straight uphill.


The 18th mercifully plays along level ground (one of the very few at Dormie) and bends a bit left.  The flat bellies need to be concerned about a crossing waste area.  For most, the approach will likely require some form of long iron/wood.  This is a solid if unspectacular finishing hole.


Behind the green.


I am in two minds concerning Dormie.  On the one hand, the experience of the course and club is excellent; very low key and calming.  There are what I think of as three great holes; numbers 3, 4 and 15.  The diversity of shots and holes is remarkable.  The greens are full of interest without being onerous.  The course was in superb nick.  On the other hand, I think the design over-reaches itself.  With the three great holes and the odd bit of unusual design here and there, enough is enough.  Additionally, I don't care for the forced walks to the edge of play. In a word, I would prefer for the tee to green aspect of the design to be simplified.  That said, I think further plays would increase my admiration and understanding for the design.   However, the one aspect of Dormie Club which should not be overlooked is the huge impact it had in the Sandhills.  Do Mid Pines, #2 and Pine Needles get the dramatic Sand Hills treatment without Dormie Club arriving on the scene?  I don't think so.  One could even take the argument further and question if Old Town reaches it's potential so quickly after Dormie Club making a splash.  The course itself may be struggling and the club never took hold, but make no mistake that C&C's work at Dormie Club is one of the most influential designs of the last 20 years. 2013

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 11:10:01 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club on tap
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2013, 09:47:22 AM »

The penultimate hole was the most surprising for me.  I hadn't registered that we were so far below the level of the house.  I knew over the first part of the front nine there was a gradual descent, but I failed to pick up on the ascent.  I ahve been critical of the three-shotters and I am afraid that trend continues.  I am not sure this hole works well as a par 5.  After a lovely drive, the second is a pure lay-up, leaving a tough third straight uphill.

This is one of the first complaints I have ever heard about 17. I love the hole. The "Hell's Half Acre-like" waste area, which requires a heroic carry to get home in two, provides great strategy. I don't think it is a pure lay-up, as the landing zone leaves around 220-230 if I remember correctly. Plus there are ~30 yards of short grass after the waste area before the green. And its not like the layup leaves a 6-iron. It should be a 110 yard shot or so. I think it is one of the best on the course.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2013, 09:47:46 AM »
Sean,

You had mentioned earlier your distaste for a few of the walks that cross the naturalized areas (#7 & #15), and indeed, they presented some difficulty for the walking golfer.  Apparently these walks were much better cared for when the club was walking only with caddies, and now that that scenario is no longer the primary means of getting around the course, those areas have deteriorated.

TK

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2013, 10:43:40 AM »
Sean, I agree almost completely with your take on Dormie Club. My only change to your review would be to swap 15 and 17. I thought the latter to be a fantastic hole while the former didn't do it for me.

The setting really gives the course a pleasant vibe. It feels relaxing and isolated and smells great. And it does have a handful of really good holes. But too much of the course felt uninspired to me. While I agree with Tyler that 9 and 12 are good short par 3s on their own, I thought they were far too similar in the context of a four hole span on a single course. It also gets pretty sloggy and repetitive in general around that mid-round stretch. From 7-13 it feels like you're playing mostly long to very long holes with the two uphill short 3s thrown in for a failed respite. I really didn't care for that stretch, and the handful of great holes doesn't quite make up for it for me.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club on tap
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2013, 11:44:48 AM »
The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there.  ::) ::).   I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards.    

I completely agree with these comments.  Organizing a group of 16 with handicaps ranging from 24 to plus 1 there was not a good solution at Dormie because of these carries and (possibly) one other on a par 3.  I either had to have everyone play from a very short distance, thereby gutting the character of these holes or attempt a carry I knew a few people would not be able to make.  I knew I would deal with grumbling whichever option I went with.    

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2013, 12:52:59 PM »
One question though, we had a player jammed under the lip of a waste area.  There was some question as to the possibility of taking a penalty drop two club lengths no closer to the hole, but outside the waste area.  That sounded right to me, but we never had the idea confirmed.

Sean, Surely enjoyed playing with you and your brother in law. I checked at the pro shop and and the ruling would be as you indicated. Since the waste area is not considered a hazard a drop in the fairway within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole is proper.
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Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2013, 02:48:46 PM »
I played Mid Pines and Pine Needles back in 2007. From the looks of the Mid Pines renovation, it looks as if the course now has a bit more character and attention to detail. That being said, I liked Pine Needles (and the 4 hole loop) a lot better for some odd reason.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club on tap
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2013, 06:38:28 PM »
The short tees on both 5 and 15 are available to shorter hitters, but I have to say you feel like a punk playing from there.  ::) ::).   I think it's a major fault of the course that those two two holes don't have a tee requiring a carry of say 160 yards.    

I completely agree with these comments.  Organizing a group of 16 with handicaps ranging from 24 to plus 1 there was not a good solution at Dormie because of these carries and (possibly) one other on a par 3.  I either had to have everyone play from a very short distance, thereby gutting the character of these holes or attempt a carry I knew a few people would not be able to make.  I knew I would deal with grumbling whichever option I went with.    

The course has many very large discrepancies in yardage between white tees and blue tees.  It seems like a huge chunk of the 650 yard difference comes at #s 2, 5, 13 &15. In theory, I think this sounds a good way to cope with some odd land.  In practice, it makes sense for #s 5 & 15.  I am not sure it does for 2 & 13, but I don't know what the restrictions are for the native areas between tees.  13 was the one that really stuck out.  I can't see any reason for the huge difference in tees.  

I can't see why there is a red, white and blue tee.  The white and blues can easily be combined for a yardage of about 6350.  Anybody wanting a shorter hole here and there can move up to the reds or just stick to reds or a longer hole here or there can move back to the blacks.  

To me, the four sets are unnecessary.

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2013, 06:40:37 PM »
17 at Dormie was reachable for me. Driver- 3 wood into the front right bunker. I'm not an overly long hitter either. And, even if you are forced to lay up it is still just a short iron to the green.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2013, 06:49:29 PM »
Jeepers, 17 must normally play downwind.  I hit driver short of the right bunker.  No hope of carrying the waste, layed-up with a 7 wood.  Then 5 iron in.  Even downwind, to reach a 490 yard hole in two with that much elevation change is what I think of as much, much longer than the average golfer. I don't think a very high percentage of golfers can reach in two from the white tees.  Unless I say otherwise, my comments centre around a guy who can carry the ball maybe 230 at most, so usually about a 215 carry or less.  For instance, for my rabbit golfer, the carry on #15 from the white tees is very daunting and for a huge percentage of golfers, impossible.  

If it wasn't for the walk forward, I would prefer the red tee for #17.  Thinking on it, I would like the red tee for #s 3, 10 & 11 as well.  I reckon that would give me a 6100 yard course that I would enjoy more than any individual tee set.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 06:59:41 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2013, 07:03:47 PM »
Jeepers, 17 must normally play downwind.  I hit driver short of the right bunker.  No hope of carrying the waste, layed-up with a 7 wood.  Then 5 iron in.  Even downwind, to reach a 490 yard hole in two with that much elevation change is what I think of as much, much longer than the average golfer. I don't think a very high percentage of golfers can reach in two from the white tees.  Unless I say otherwise, my comments centre around a guy who can carry the ball maybe 230 at most, so usually about a 215 carry or less.  

Ciao

Sean,
Perhaps you should follow your own advice regarding moving up the the reds on some holes ;D ;D ;) ;)

nice tours by the way
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2013, 07:42:29 PM »
During the week of the Affordable Golf Symposium, I played both Dormie & Mid Pines (re-played, first play prior to remodeling).
I am a shortter hitting mid-single digit handicapper.  

Dormie, I classify as a play once a year type of course, because of the severity of scoring.  I did play the blue tees and walked the course in which I was pooped by hole 15, but was fortunate to break 80.  The weather was perfect, lower 70's and not much humidity. I could not walk the course in the summer heat.  The approach shots at Dormie, must be played conservatively because of green firmness and speed.  Hole 17 needs a complete re-do IMO.  At $175, I was OK for a single play one time, but am reluctant to go back for a steady dose.  There are other courses on my bucket list.

The Mid-Pines renovation is visually attractive.  The waste areas - bunkers are used a bit repetitively,  I would like to see an occasional cross bunker or center line waste area.  The renovation, for me, did not alter the way the holes are played.   It is now a toned down Tobacco Road.  It was a $125 round for me.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished New
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2013, 03:43:20 AM »
Carl

We walked Dormie as well.  The pro suggested it wasn't too bad a walk (and it isn't really awful to be fair), but when we came in a bit surprised by some of the hikes the pro then admitted he hadn't walked more than 10 holes at a time - and felt dogged afterward!  In the future, I would consider taking the free cart and getting a forecaddie to drive it when we didn't want to, but be on hand to give us lifts past the harsh walks. 

Jeff (Sherman) Warne

I have no qualms with moving forward.  I did, however, notice some of my would be southern brethren didn't much like the idea of playing from Reds on occassion. 

LOCAL FLAVOUR

We just happened to be in town for the North Carolina State Fair.  Despite my bro-in-law not being enthusiastic about dropping by, we managed to convince him that attending these sorts of "affairs" are part of his duty as a newly minted US citizen - even if it was never mentioned on the application form.  Yet another fantastic fall day was on hand, very much the sort we associate with Saturday College ball.  It had been about 20 years since I last attended a State Fair.  Things have changed slightly since my days in Michigan.  I heard the music from outside the hall and drifted in to see the biggest three-legged cow in Wake County or the fattest chicken east of the Mississippi.  I didn't get to see anything of that ilk, instead we were treated to what I can only presume is a no-name country band.  Now, back in my day we were used to watching bands like The Ramones, Mitch Ryder or Iggy Pop at the State Fair...mind you, these country boys were quite good and I was diggin' on the Allman Bros tunes until the shrill voiced skinny as Twiggy appeared on stage...I exited. I guess the good ole boys don't need no Detroiters hangin' round anyhow. Cleverly, the tobacco market doubles as a stage.   


After a less than thrilling family acrobatic show, an array of large pumpkins (900 pounders!) and a display of less than interesting home-made objet d'art, I thought the gig was over.  How wrong I was.  An entirely new world of haute cuisine appeared magically under the Carolina sun. Deep fried Kool-Aid - zowie!  They will deep fry your shoe for a few bucks. 


More to come.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 06:15:11 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Dormie Club finished
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2013, 06:32:49 PM »
The Mid-Pines renovation is visually attractive.  The waste areas - bunkers are used a bit repetitively,  I would like to see an occasional cross bunker or center line waste area.  The renovation, for me, did not alter the way the holes are played.   It is now a toned down Tobacco Road.  It was a $125 round for me.
One more thought about Mid-Pines.  I think it needs a large tree clearing program to tie together more of the waste areas, making them bigger in scale.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Local Flavour on tap
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2013, 06:44:52 PM »
Yes, I think more trees could come out, but as you say, more importantly I would have liked some of the waste areas to be more in my face like at Dormie.  I suspect that sort of thing wasn't original to Ross though, but I could be wrong.  Ross was quite inventive when he needed/wanted to be.  Still, I really liked the course and can't really point to a true architectural weakness.  I could be happy with Mid Pines as my home club.  Throwing in Pine Needles is nothing to sneeze at either.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Local Flavour on tap
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2013, 06:49:43 PM »
Oh yeah, play at Mid-Pines all the time if I was close and a little wealthier ...
I have yet to play Pine Needles
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Local Flavour on tap New
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2013, 05:06:50 AM »
LOCAL FLAVOUR CONT.

All the times I visited Raleigh and this was the first time I made it to the city centre.  Nothing particularly special to see, although I enjoyed touring the State Capitol building.  It was mighty generous of Sherman not to burn it down.  Amongst the various statues, proclamations and plaques, I was especially taken by the one below. Its poorly phrased, but we get the message; the Brits were a mean lot back in the day.


I spose Raleigh's most famous son is Andrew Johnson.  I don't think he had it too bad growing up in the house below.  I am told Lincoln's childhood home was worse...


Even in the South commercialism is the true religion, but the old time variety is never far away.  The concept of separation of church and state always struck me as right and proper.  Its an idea many Brits don't fully understand.  Ironically, because some aspect of faith is expected of American politicians (particularly southern politicians), it can be argued that the UK, even with the Queen as Head of State and Church has more separation between church & state than exists in the US.   


A LOCAL COURSE

Wildwood Green is a mid-80s design by John Lafoy, an architect who has done quite a bit of work in Georgia and the Carolinas.  This is a tough site to create a memorable design because of the OOB necessitated by the housing estate and the over-abundance of water.  I don't think the course is as good as the individual holes suggest simply because of the constant threat of hitting a shot which results in a replay or a drop.  That said, some of the holes are very good and the club is keen improve the course.  Just recently (August 2017) the greens were relaid with a variety of Bermuda grass and some trees were taken out...though many more trees need to be removed to mitigate the pressure of OOB. 

The Ross-like 2nd.


The do or die 6th features a spine down the middle of the green making recovery shots from the opposite side of the green quite entertaining.


The par five 7th may be the best hole on the course. 




The drive is very hemmed in on the 8th, but the greensite is excellent despite the heavy-handed shaping.


Quite an interesting hole, the 9th works between OOB left and right.  Most of the time, the best angle of approach requires a slight lay-up just shy of the bunker.   


Legging left and downhill, the 10th is very dangerous; OOB left and the perfect drive still leaves a good length carry over water.




Threading trouble left and right, the approach to 14 is excellent.


#16 was a hole I really liked - straight forward, no nonsense golf. Although, the shadows cast across the fairway tell the story where trees are concerned.


Perhaps the best hole was saved for last.  Sweeping downhill and right, the 18th then heads steeply uphill to a long, narrow green for the approach.


Ciao
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 05:32:32 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - A Local Course on tap New
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2013, 09:35:30 AM »
OLD TOWN CLUB

Although the current greens are a close approximation of Maxwell's originals, The Old Course homage double green for #s 8 & 17 and movement of the greens in general most reflect Maxwell’s admiration for St Andrews. The great architect was also very impressed by how well so many of the holes on Scottish championship courses lay on the land.  These two design principles would be beacons for the entirety of Perry Maxwell’s architectural career. 

An unforeseeable event happened during Maxwell's epic 1919 journey to Scotland.  The coincidental meeting with Dr Alister Mackenzie, was to eventually lead to a partnership between the two.  For Mackenzie, it was his modus operandi to work with creative and industrious people in bringing many of his most famous designs to fruition.  For Maxwell, it was a double edged sword.  There can be little doubt working with Mackenzie was a feather in his cap, but many later golf historians would mistakenly consider Maxwell’s legacy mainly in terms of a Mackenzie associate.  Thankfully, in the past the ten years or so, that misconception has been rectified.   

Classic architecture is about many things, but a sense of connection surely must be one of the most important aspects of that period.  From approximately 1900 to the Great Depression there necessarily existed a much tighter community in the business of golf than exists today and Old Town is one of the greatest products of this coterie.  Consider the timeline below:

1913: Maxwell designs a first effort for Dornick Hills.

1919: Maxwell visits Scotland to experience many championship courses, but most especially TOC. 

1919: During the Scottish trip, Maxwell meets Alistair Mackenzie, the two hit it off and, before parting make loose plans to work together should Mackenzie come to the USA.

1920-1926: Maxwell designs several courses including Twin Hills in Oklahoma City.

1924: Mackenzie appointed consultant to the R&A. 

1926: Mackenzie visits Maxwell at Twin Hills in Oklahoma City.

1927-1931: Mackenzie, now quite a famous architect, teams with Maxwell for several projects, including; Oklahoma City CC, Melrose CC in Philadelphia, Crystal Downs Club in Michigan and the University of Michigan GC in Ann Arbor.   

1933: Augusta National GC designed by Mackenzie and Bob Jones shortly before Mackenzie’s death; Jones is a great admirer of TOC and the design principles of ANGC are closely associated with TOC. 

1933: Maxwell works on Pine Valley GC; a course which was significantly enhanced by HS Colt, a former partner of Mackenzie. 

1934: Maxwell co-designs Colonial CC.

1935: Maxwell works on National Golf Links of America.  Course designed by CB Macdonald who attended The University of St Andrews and became well acquainted with TOC. 

1935: Maxwell designs Southern Hills CC in Tulsa. 

1936: Mackenzie works on Links Club.

1937: Maxwell designs the 9 hole Prairie Dunes CC in Hutchinson, Kansas.

1937-38: Maxwell works on Augusta National GC and Merion GC.  Clifford Roberts, co-founder of ANGC, is hired to work for the firm of Reynolds & Company (later to become Dean, Witter, Reynolds).  He would then recommend Maxwell for the Old Town job.

1938: The Babcocks (daughter of RJ Reynolds) donate 165 acres of the Reynolda estate to found Old Town Club.

1939: The Maxwell designed Old Town Club opens in Winston Salem.  Many believe this is the final course designed on classic principles.

1939: Maxwell works on Maidstone GC & Westchester CC. 

1940: Maxwell works on Colonial CC. 

1946-48: Maxwell designs Austin CC, and stays periodically with Harvey Pennick, the long serving head professional of the club.  The original course was Ben Crenshaw’s home course in the 1960s before attending the University of Texas.  Like Old Town, Austin featured many Maxwell trademarks: downhill front and back nine opening tee shots, uphill finishing holes for each nine, many greens tightly bunkered and rolling greens. Crenshaw’s famous putting skills were honed at Austin CC.  It is well known that TOC is one of Crenshaw’s favourite courses and one he looks to for inspiration in design.

1949: A Palmer wins the Southern Conference Championship at Old Town. 

1954: In his final year at Wake Forest, Arnold Palmer leads the team to a 2nd place ACC finish at Old Town and wins the US Amateur.  He would be the first of many players, including Curtis Strange, Darren Clark, Lanny Wadkins and Jay Sigel, to be groomed by Old Town for a successful career in golf.   

1956: Wake Forest University Golf Team begins a long and close association with Old Town Club, two years before the university moves to Winston Salem. 

1962: Bill Coore enrols at Wake Forest University.  He played a minor role on the golf team, but never played in a Varsity match.  Coore greatly admires the work of Maxwell, especially his greens and routings and counts Old Town as one of his favourite courses. 

1982: After spending a decade cutting his teeth with Pete Dye, Coore starts his own architecture firm. 

1984: Coore starts a long partnership with Prairie Dunes as a consultant.  It could well be that this is the big bang point for the current minimalist movement.

1986: Ben Crenshaw joins Bill Coore as a partner. 

1992: Coore and Crenshaw open Sand Hills to critical acclaim.  Many believe it to be the best course opened since Old Town Club. 

1995: Bob Cupp renovation of Old Town.

2002: Long term tree management project begins.

2004: Coore & Crenshaw renovate Prairie Dunes.

2012-2013: Fresh off renovating Pinehurst #2 to rave reviews, Coore & Crenshaw hired to renovate Old Town; the course reopened in August 2013. 

One can easily see the incredible connections between TOC, Old Town, ANGC, Prairie Dunes, Mackenzie, Maxwell, Jones, Coore and Crenshaw. However, it takes a will power on the part of a club to effect change and Dunlop White iii has been at the helm of this process of improvement at Old Town for over a decade.  Once meeting Dunlop it is clear he is a strong advocate for proper tree management and preserving principles of classic design.  Old Town Club and golfers in general are extremely lucky to have a man of vision guiding the re-birth of one of the best courses in the US. 

Dunlop explains the nine month renovation work:

1. Restored the approximate size, shape and dimensions of Maxwell’s original bunkers.

2. Reinstated some of Maxwell’s common bunker formations:
        -- Scabs: "islands of turf", often called "scabs", were reinstated.
        -- Big and Little Bunker Sets: Maxwell’s bunker systems tended to feature one large bunker with a smaller one    tagging along.

3.  Revived the artistic character of Maxwell’s natural bunker style.
       -- Jagged Edges: we recaptured Maxwell’s rugged bunkers with jagged-laced edges, rumpled lips, and exposed dirt face variations.
       -- Native Plant Patina: we recaptured stalks of native bluestems, known as Broomsedge, which will once again envelope the edges.

4. Restored the original depths of bunker floors. In coring out the bunkers, their original depths were idnetified by unearthing old sand layers and drainage tiles approximately two feet below the current bunker floors.

5.  Returned to local creek-bed sand from the nearest harvester -- the Yadkin River.

6.  Restored 68 bunkers in their original locations, and added 9 bunkers in new locations.

7.  Restored the close relationship and proximity between bunkers/greens.  An important element of the restoration was tying the bunkers and the greens back together seamlessly.

8.  The double green was 8,200 square feet in 2012. The restored version is 16,300 square feet which closer resemble its source of inspiration at The Old Course -- home to seven large double greens.

9.  Re-contoured hole 5 green which had lost its Maxwell "rolls".

10. Expanded the size of the putting surface on nine (9) greens closer to their original foot prints.

11. Expanded the fairways from 35 acres to 52 acres to recapture the width revealed in the old aerial photos.

12. Repaved the cart trails (re-routed some trails and removed others altogether)

13. Removed dozens of huge trees which had outgrown their welcome.

14. Re-constructed over 22 tee boxes by slightly adjusting their distance or their orientation to the fairway.

15. Native area work will commence in the fall.

16. Plan to increase fairway acreage to approximately 80 acres; including a massive expance of fairway between #s 4, 7, 8, 9, 17 & 18.

17. Plan to eliminate Bermuda rough, leaving only native areas and fairway (similar to Pinehurst #2 with all waste areas and fairway – no Bermuda rough).

18. Plan to switch the 9th and 18th tees. 

With the lengthy intro it should be more than obvious I am greatly affected by Old Town and the recent work.  I thought very highly of the design after first seeing Old Town maybe four years ago.  Dunlop enthusiastically spoke about further tree removal to create interior views, something I am always in favour of especially on a site with limited potential for exterior views, but I was not prepared for the Coore & Crenshaw renovations.  While much the same course, Old Town is aesthetically vastly improved and in spots visually more intimidating.  I was impressed by Mid-Pines’ renovation, but the work at Old Town could very well be considered THE model renovation.  It seems to me that every possible improvement which could be made is at the very least on the table for discussion. In fact, the very day I played Old Town it was decided to switch the 9 and 18th tees.  Dunlop asked us to step over to the 18th tee (all of a few feet!), look up the 9th fairway and see the improvement for ourselves.  I have to admit that keeping the ball safely left did strike me as a more obvious play from the 18th tee and playing to the right side of the 18th fairway more imperative when playing from the 9th tee.  Life can be quite simple!  Onto the course. 



A very attractive opening tee shot conceals the danger of a nasty native area left and a creek crossing the fairway.


On #2 the golfer is treated to a wonderful par 3 whose bunkers have been radically overhauled.


The lay of the land wants to shove tee shots left into tree trouble, but a good drive on #3 leaves an approach from just shy of what I think is a new bunker, or perhaps a repositioned bunker. I seem to recall a bunker being more centre-line.  In any case, the land movement heads directly for the bunker in the foreground so its placement makes a lot of sense.  The green moves almost imperceptively right to left!  I had an interesting incident occur.  From the left rough I caught a flyer, my 9 iron, which I chose because I didn't think I could reach that blasted black Merc, flew over the green, hit directly on the mound, took one bounce over the black Merc and slammed into a maintenance fence.  While searching for the ball I jokingly said it would be difficult to explain to our host how I broke a window.  Dunlop later confessed the black Merc was his, though I wasn't totally convinced this was the case until he unlocked the door!  Whew! 


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 04:01:05 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Old Town on Tap
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2013, 06:25:38 PM »
Wonderful Old Town post, Sean - thanks.

You really have become an invaluable part of this site.

Peter

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Old Town on Tap New
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2013, 05:00:33 AM »
Pietro - thank you very much.

OLD TOWN CLUB CONT

Some people will point toward the slightly awkward walk across the car park to reach the 4th tee, however, crossing the lot does create two very good boozer's loops of 1-3 and 4-9.  My immediate thought concerning the 4th is the huge advantage big hitters enjoy - essentially making this par 5 a very good birdie opportunity. The dogleg corner is out of reach from the tee, consequently most golfers' second shot will have to work right around the dogleg or lay-up to a convenient distance.  Because the fairway flows into the 7th, very short hitters do not have the onus of an exact placement shot at the turn, there is some recovery wiggle room should the second run through the fairway.  Flat bellies have a huge advantage on the approach as well. As on the first, there is a blind creek crossing the fairway which more likely than not will effect guys who can't carry the ball at least 225.  Behind the green is evidence of tree clearing to expose the 5th, 6th and 7th.  I believe the two rear bunkers are new as well.  They may hide the cart path and perhaps break-up a sightline which isn't quite right.


Legging around the 6th green (see flag on the left of the photo) and over corner bunkers, which is a bigger carry than it appears, the 5th is a shortish, but devilish par four.  There is space over the far right bunkers for a lay-up, but predictably, that leaves a longer approach into a raised green (a feature throughout at Old Town) which feeds away from the fairway.  I believe the far left bunker is new.  I expect this may give flat bellies much more to think about for the tee shot.


The 150-160 yard approach after a cowardly lay-up.


#6, #6, #6 ......DIFFICULT!  Playing downhill, the green too runs away from play.  Additionally, there is a spine running maybe 2/3s of the way from the right.  With the location front left, it is best to play pin-high right and try to two putt up the spine.  Running to the rear of the green leaves a putt which needs some rehearsing to learn.  Diabolically, C&C have placed a bunker hiding and protecting the safe landing zone on the right. Incidentally, loads of trees have come out behind the green creating a more open feel.


In the mist of a great stretch of holes, the 7th is a sleeper which in truth is the match of 5, 6, & 8.  For all the space on view it can be difficult to ascertain the best line off the tee.  The new bunkers left protect the ideal line of approach and the trees right can block out a lazy tee shot which leaks down the hill. Below is a look at seven (on the left) and seventeen.  Incidentally, the left bunkers are on double duty as they are in play for the 4th hole as well.  I am sure there were trees near this area before the renovation.   


From the fairway the green looks wide, but in fact it is set at an angle being long and narrow, thus placing a premium on the tee shot. 


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 05:15:42 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Old Town on Tap
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2013, 06:20:11 AM »
I know it is just because the grass is formant but I like Sean's pictures with the brown grass better than the others I have seen with green grass. Old Town looks like one marvelous golf course. I can't wait to see it after they complete the plan of eliminating all rough and returning it to natural broken ground.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Old Town on Tap
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2013, 11:18:25 AM »
The photos of Old Town gives me a sort of Aussie vibe.  Could that be possible?  It would seem to be a very interesting course when or if it plays firm and fast.  I like the looks of it.

A wonderful photo journey, as always, Sean. 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Old Town on Tap New
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2013, 03:51:54 AM »
Steve & RJ - thank you very much.

OLD TOWN CLUB CONT

The glorious golf continues.  Some well known designers have made it known they believe double greens to be hokey.  This is a curious stance as in my experience they are rare and there have been situations where I think combining nearby greens would add flair to a design. Needless to say, the standout aspect of the 8th is the shared green with #17.  As part of the recent renovation, the green size has been doubled.  The blind drive can be a bit bewildering.  Its important not to stray too far left and be caught in the Bermuda.  Digging out a down lie to a green just beyond water is not ideal!  For many, it will also be important not to be left with an overly downhill lie.  The photo below is  from a level spot at the top of the hill. 


The new rear bunkers conceal the cart path, thus dramatically improving the aesthetics of this green.


Much of the left side of the green is new. 


The front nine finishes with a tough uphill legger right.  The lay of the land moves with the shape of the dogleg so it is very easy to be caught in trees.  While the approach is quite steep, there is some relief due to a bank at the rear of the green which can be used quite effectively when the hole is cut on the back half of the green.  Back to the changing of the tees for #s 9 & 18; it seems to me the entire tee pad can be used for both holes. Why not simply put 9 & 18 tee markers across the width of the pad and let the player choose his line? 

At first glance the 10th tee seems to be located in an odd spot as it is the hub of a busy as bees area.  The hole plays blindly downhill.  The hill which influences the ball movement on 9 & 18 also does so on 10.  There is a small wood down the right over the crest of the hill which can very easily be in play.  I expect many people lay-up, but there can be an advantage to taking the trees on.  Below are photos of the distinct approaches.




The short 11th brings a well featured creek back into play. In fact, I think there are at least three creeks on the property; all in one way or another running beyond #s 10 & 11.   


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 05:19:23 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The SAND HILLS & OLD TOWN - Old Town on Tap
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2013, 04:05:14 AM »
The photos of Old Town gives me a sort of Aussie vibe.  Could that be possible?  It would seem to be a very interesting course when or if it plays firm and fast.  I like the looks of it.


Funny that. I was sitting here thinking 'I've never seen a more British-looking course in America'.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

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