Keller Golf Course, St. Paul, MN - Renovation (Richard Mandell)

[PCCraig]

I saw this and thought it was worth posting.

For those of you that have never heard of it, Keller is a 1920's era municipal course in Saint Paul, MN which was designed by a local engineer named Paul Coates who met with and tried to channel Donald Ross in designing the course. It later hosted two PGA Championships, a Western Open, and the PGA Tour's Saint Paul Open for a few decades.

Keller has been closed for the last year and a half to be renovated by our own Richard Mandell. I was lucky enough to have gotten a tour a couple of months ago and found the work being done to be really interesting. When it's done, I think it'll be the best public golf course in the Twin Cities.

The below is a blog post from the Superintendant which offers a "sneak peak" of the renovation work:

http://kellerrenovation.blogspot.com/2013/10/hole-by-hole-pictorial-1025.html

[RJ_Daley]

Much appreciated, Pat.  I believe this is going to be very special.  In the tradition of some of the great county and state owned courses, I think this one is going to go to the top tier.  With the rich history of tournaments and county club activities, it already holds great esteem.  But, the new lease on life, with what appears to be a deft touch by Richard to keep the classic feel, seems like a total winner.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played Keller regularly when I was in graduate school in the late 60's.  I loved the layout but it was a tired old course that showed her age.  I have nothing but fond memories of the course and can't wait to see it again the next time I return to the cities.

[Tom Fagerli]

Sure looks nice! The people of St Paul are going to have a beauty at Keller.

[jim_lewis]

Pat:

I always notice your photo of Hogan and Palmer standing on the 2nd tee at ANGC. I'm not much of a collector, but one of my prized possessions is a copy of that photo signed by both Hogan and Palmer (in that order). It was quite a trick to get both their signatures, especially Hogan. Unfortunately the signatures are about 30 years old and have faded to the point that they are hard to see.

Jim

[Rick Shefchik]

For those who have read references here to the oak tree in front of the par-3 4th hole at Keller, but have never seen it:

[Forrest Richardson]

Rich's work looks very, very good. Our office was interested in this work, but took a pass based on the logistics and our workload at the time. It was a very competitive process, with a good result for the County…not to mention Rich! Rich is an ideal fit and the results seem perfect for what was needed at this great setting. Hats off!

[Dan Kelly]

Can't wait to play it.

I think Keller was my favorite TC public before, and it looks to be much improved.

[RJ_Daley]

My home course is another county owned facility with pretty good credentials.  We held our Wis., State Am a few years ago, and tat year's Senior USGA Am champ won at our State Am with a 4 day -1 and second place was +1.  They played at just barely 6850 yards.

We are remodelling all 18 greens at the same time and have been playing 18temps all year.  The grow-in is going spectacularly.  But, the remodel job did involve taking a bit of internal contour out of some of our best greens.  It remains to be seen with the balance of a new cultivar of bent (Luminary developed at Rutgers) and likely greater green speeds, if the tone down of contour is going to take too much scoring resistance out of the equation.

That all said, I recently was speaking with our Pro and a few of or Men's club officers and floated the idea of trying to make contact with Keller's Men's club officials, to think about having a fall 2014 home and home series of competition and try to schedule it on a weekend that also has a Packer's - Vikings game.  Since our course would/should be in great condition with green turf by then, we could have the first one here, and the next year at Keller.  It could start small with 20-40 players and might catch on and grow into something cool.  

I thoroughly enjoyed my play at Keller.  I'd go back there in an instant.  I don't think the Keller folks would think our course is not up to the challenge either.  There are many similarities, but I'd rate Keller better on just about all head to head individual design and now obviously construction features comparisons.  Our next projects must involve bunker renewal.  The drainage is lousy at current time.  

[PCCraig]

For those who have read references here to the oak tree in front of the par-3 4th hole at Keller, but have never seen it:

It should be noted that Rich and his team have done quite a bit to make the 4th more playable. Prior to the renovation, I thought the hole was stupid as the tree had grown so high that on a 160 yard hole you had to hit a sky high mid-iron to a green that was only 15-20 paces deep. The green now is much deeper and there is now an option to punch a shot below the tree.

It's certainly quirky, that's for sure!

[PCCraig]

Pat:

I always notice your photo of Hogan and Palmer standing on the 2nd tee at ANGC. I'm not much of a collector, but one of my prized possessions is a copy of that photo signed by both Hogan and Palmer (in that order). It was quite a trick to get both their signatures, especially Hogan. Unfortunately the signatures are about 30 years old and have faded to the point that they are hard to see.

Jim

That's very neat Jim. It's a great picture and I can only imagine how difficult it was to get both men to sign it!

[Richard_Mandell]

Pat, Thanks for bringing up Paul Diegnau's blog posting.  The place is looking good and I am excited to see it open next summer and getting to play it as well.

[Dan Kelly]

Pat, Thanks for bringing up Paul Diegnau's blog posting.  The place is looking good and I am excited to see it open next summer and getting to play it as well.

Really can't wait to hit a knockdown under that tree. My life in golf will be complete!

Obviously pictures can't substitute for seeing the place with one's own two eyes, but the views from the tee boxes seem much, much improved == particularly Nos. 1, 5, 14, and 16.

I'm curious about the bunker on No. 2. How far to carry into it from the back tee? How far to carry over it? Is there much difference in green-approachableness from the right fairway and the left fairway? (From the picture, it looks like the left fairway is a much-inferior angle -- is it?)

[Richard_Mandell]

Dan,

The golf hole plays 393 yards from the tips and 349 yards from the regular tees.  To hit into the short right side of the bunker will take a 267 yard drive from the tips and a 230 yard tee shot from the regulars.  To carry the far right corner of the bunker will take a 287 yard drive from the tips and a 247 yard drive from the regular tees.  There is an original small pot bunker on the far left that was blocked in by trees and rough before.  When we removed the trees, we brought the fairway into the bunker on that side to bring it into play for the big hitter choosing to hit it down the left side.  
That side (left) isn't inferior, per se.  It is just not as desirable as the right side.  The central bunker hazard is designed to have risk and reward by carrying the far right corner.  At that point, the green sets up better for an approach from the right with no bunker to carry and one can have a slightly shorter approach as well. Three good reasons to carry the right side or play closer to that side than the left.

Those same three reasons are why one doesn't gain reward by playing down the left side.  If the golfer takes the left side, which is the side that requires less carry, then the golfer has an awkward angle into the green from that side and has a bunker to deal with and a slightly longer approach.

So the right side is the preferable side.  I did not create a situation where both sides are equally desirable off the tee.  I think that is the problem with so many central hazards - they don't really have a hierarchy of challenge, which I think they are supposed to have.  Those type of split fairway holes are just for aesthetics, not strategy.  There should be a reason to play to one side or the other and an additional drawback if the golfer chooses the other side.

[Jason Topp]

It all looks very nice but the 12th looks like a drastic improvement.  Good luck with the grow in.  I assume this fall has been good weather for it.

[Dan Kelly]

So the right side is the preferable side.  I did not create a situation where both sides are equally desirable off the tee.  I think that is the problem with so many central hazards - they don't really have a hierarchy of challenge, which I think they are supposed to have.  Those type of split fairway holes are just for aesthetics, not strategy.  There should be a reason to play to one side or the other and an additional drawback if the golfer chooses the other side.

Rich --

I get that.

What I guess I'm not getting (I repeat: these are just pictures!) is: It appears that the preferable right side is easier to hit to than the non-preferable left side. A drive to the right side looks like all reward/no risk to me -- which takes the left side out of play, except for a bad shot.

My amateur view is that the problem with most dual-fairway holes is that one side or the other is clearly preferable under almost all conditions. I'm wondering if Keller No. 2 will make players think hard. It's the one hole that I wondered about.

Here it is, for those who haven't checked out the blog:

[Richard_Mandell]

Dan,

The right side may be a bigger target, but it requires more of a carry.  That is where the risk/reward comes in.  The exact perfect spot to hit is carrying the far corner of the fairway bunker.  Can you show a picture that shows the entire fairway?  The one here cuts off the right side.  I would but haven't figured out how to insert pictures yet.

[PCCraig]

Dan (& Richard),

Wouldn't the preferred line off the tee be dictated in large part by where the pin is on the green?

[Dan Kelly]

Dan,

The right side may be a bigger target, but it requires more of a carry.  That is where the risk/reward comes in.  The exact perfect spot to hit is carrying the far corner of the fairway bunker.  Can you show a picture that shows the entire fairway?  The one here cuts off the right side.  I would but haven't figured out how to insert pictures yet.

Rich --

Use the scroll bar at the bottom of the picture.

I'm not sure how to shrink that picture.

Dan

[Richard_Mandell]

Pat,

The front left bunker still cuts into a play from the left side no matter where the pin is that particular day.  When the pin is on the left side it is still best to come in from the right side because of the angle.  When the pin is on the right side, it may still be advantageous to come in from that side as well because of taking that front left bunker out of play still as well as being a bit closer. Or it may not depending on the player.

[Shane Wright]

The pictures look great.  #12 is going to be special.  Keller could end up being a case study for popular municipal courses in other major metro areas.  I was amazed they approved the funding for this project given the economic climate at the time.  Keller is going to be buried with play once it re-opens.  I can't wait to see the finished product.  

With regard to #2, I like the angle of the centerline bunker.  I think it brings several decisions into play, certainly one that hasn't been mentioned is just laying up short of it and having 140-150 left.

Shane

[Rick Shefchik]

The way I'd look at hole #2 if I were a long hitter is that the left side actually opens up a bit the farther I hit it, while the rough line and trees start to pinch in if I hit it long down the right side.

I'm not a long hitter, and I'll go right every time on #2 (or lay up), but I think the left would be more tempting if I could bomb it. When you're hitting a sand wedge into the green, who cares about a greenside bunker?

[Dan Kelly]

The way I'd look at hole #2 if I were a long hitter is that the left side actually opens up a bit the farther I hit it, while the rough line and trees start to pinch in if I hit it long down the right side.

Yes, but ...

If you were long enough to reach the land where the left side opens up (i.e. past the bunker on the left), aren't you long enough to just aim right over the center of the bunker?

The absolute worst place to put your drive, it seems to me, is in that bunker on the left.

(Apologies to Rich for initiating a discussion of a hole none of us has yet played. The proof of the pudding, obviously, will be in the playing -- which I'm sure all of us Minnesotans are eager to do.)

[Richard_Mandell]

Dan,

No apologies necessary.  I appreciate the banter and debate.  A good golf hole always spurs debate and I am fortunate the debate has begun before it opens. I do agree with your assessment about hitting it to the right if you can hit it that far to the left.  Sorry, Rick.

[Rick Shefchik]

No problem, Rich. I was just taking a short break from writing, anyway.