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Lou_Duran

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Course Setup- any available literature?
« on: October 31, 2013, 12:17:35 PM »
IMO, course setup is a highly important factor in how we experience golf architecture and a cousin if not a brother to TEPaul's "Maintenance Meld".  It is an area that seems to take a backseat at many of the clubs I visit to other maintenance (e.g. rotating pin and tee positions to minimize wear), operational, and speed of play ("Tee It Forward") issues.

I have some thoughts based on experience on how a course should be setup, but I would like to learn more about it.  Is there a book or pamphlet which covers the subject matter comprehensively.  Suggestions?

Jason Topp

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 12:20:51 PM »
Lou - there are a bunch of suggestions in the handicapping manual.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2013, 01:42:01 PM »
One of my favourite UK heathland courses, Tadmarton Heath, has a very nice simple diagram on their website showing their course set-up. There is also some very nice narrative that goes along with the diagram - see this weblink -

http://www.tadmartongolf.com/pages.php/page/10f663f8-4500-11e2-8f46-bc305bd9eec9/view.html

By the way, I was at Tadmarton recently and it was in splendid overall condition and the greens were just fabulous. A real joy to putt on. For those who know the course they have fairly recently done a lot of very good work clearing out the rear of the 6th green, the side of the 7th tee and revising the pathway and ditch areas in front of the 7th green. It's a significant improvement. They are also renovating all the bunkers on the 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th holes under the direction of Ken Moody.

There was a photo tour of Tadmarton Heath done back in 2006 which was slightly scathing although I believe the course manager changed sometime after the photo tour was undertaken. I've been to Tadmarton a few times over the last few years and it's damn good. Work has been done to invigorate the heather and the gorse. The course is a real pleasure to play, not long on the card, but great fun and with plenty of places to catch out a player who is overly ambitious. Lovely olde worlde clubhouse too. Play Tadmarton if you get the chance. It's on sand, so free draining and good value in the winter on a County Card.

All the best

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2013, 01:56:45 PM »
USGA's   How to Conduct a Competition   may help some

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2013, 03:44:04 PM »
The R&A has a guide on running a competition, which has a section on course set up. You can find the document in the following link:

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Guidance-on-Running-a-Competition.aspx

If you can't access through the link, go to www.randa.org, and under Rules and Amateur Status you will find the Guide on Running a Competition.

Hope it helps.

Ricardo

Lou_Duran

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 09:25:13 AM »
Thanks guys.  The R & A link is particularly useful.  I'll see if I can find the USGA link.

I have a fairly good gca library, so if anyone remembers passages or references in some of the architecture books, please let me know.

Perhaps it would be useful now to open up this thread to suggestions on setup for everyday play.   You are taking the afternoon off to sneak in a round of golf, how would you like to see your golf course presented?

Jason Topp

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 10:18:45 AM »
For every day play:

Pins: I like the 6-6-6 idea (hard/medium/easy).  It is easy for the staff to fall into a rut on positions in order to be safe.  I prefer they take a few chances to reward a player who pays attention and thinks in advance.  

For tees - My club is creative on Saturdays with 3-5 tees up and 3-5 tees back.  On Sunday, the tees are on the normal box with the yardage evening out around the plates.

I like that approach.  The creative set up adds variety but I would not to play a creative set up every day.  The course is pretty good from the normal distances.  

I dislike courses that play shorter than their listed yardage or use plates at the back of each tee box for listed yardage.  I prefer to not be deluded about my abilities or the challenge I faced each day.   I can delude myself without any help.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 11:34:22 AM »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Howard Riefs

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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Matt Wharton

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 02:53:19 PM »
I find this to be an interesting topic.  I will preface with mentioning I did look at three of the links provided (Tadmarton and the two Kyle Harris blogs).  I do not use or follow any system when setting up Carolina Golf Club for play (tournament or day-to-day).  We provide a pin sheet on a daily basis thus we are not limited by any preexisting metric with regards to where the hole must be placed (front-middle-back, A-B-C-D, 1-6 pin locations, etc.).  The hole location is our choice and we choose based on numerous factors such as turf condition, weather, events, pace of play, even mood (mine or the golf course's).  I believe a golf course is a living, breathing thing and things are way too dynamic to simplify them into precisely placed tee markers and hole locations so as the golf hole plays near as possible to its scorecard yardage.  Some days are sunny, some are windy, some are rainy, some are humid, some are hot, some are cold, etc., etc.  

I believe there are only two fundamental things any golfer should follow when heading out for a round of golf... play the course as you find it and play the ball as it lies.  Some days the course will play easier or more difficult than others for a myriad of reasons and I believe that is what makes this the greatest game ever.  Today's challenge and experience will not be the same tomorrow.  Isn't that why each of us are always looking forward to the next round?

Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 03:29:57 PM »
I find this to be an interesting topic.  I will preface with mentioning I did look at three of the links provided (Tadmarton and the two Kyle Harris blogs).  I do not use or follow any system when setting up Carolina Golf Club for play (tournament or day-to-day).  We provide a pin sheet on a daily basis thus we are not limited by any preexisting metric with regards to where the hole must be placed (front-middle-back, A-B-C-D, 1-6 pin locations, etc.).  The hole location is our choice and we choose based on numerous factors such as turf condition, weather, events, pace of play, even mood (mine or the golf course's).  I believe a golf course is a living, breathing thing and things are way too dynamic to simplify them into precisely placed tee markers and hole locations so as the golf hole plays near as possible to its scorecard yardage.  Some days are sunny, some are windy, some are rainy, some are humid, some are hot, some are cold, etc., etc.  

I believe there are only two fundamental things any golfer should follow when heading out for a round of golf... play the course as you find it and play the ball as it lies.  Some days the course will play easier or more difficult than others for a myriad of reasons and I believe that is what makes this the greatest game ever.  Today's challenge and experience will not be the same tomorrow.  Isn't that why each of us are always looking forward to the next round?

Bravo!  I think I said something similar on another thread just a couple of days ago, regarding providing multiple sets of tees, but it comes across more naturally in this context.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 04:07:51 PM »
Matt, Tom -- a comment, based on my one summer working on a (public, modest) golf course as a student barely out of my teens. I think what doesn't get mentioned is that the job of cutting hole locations/pins might in many places still be given to someone like me back then, i.e. the most junior member of a small maintenance crew. And I think I was given that job because it was thought the place where I could do the least damage -- they certainly weren't going to sit me atop those big fairways mowers or give me the job of mowing (and possibly scalping) the greens. And so I got sent out first thing in the morning to fill the water containers and cup holders and to cut the holes; and, though I hardly played the game back then (and wouldn't for almost two decades afterwards, for various reasons), I already really liked watching golf and thinking about the architecture, and I thought I was a bright kid, and so I thought I knew what I was doing. I had a great deal of fun trying to figure out where most golfers would land their drives and then cutting a hole in the most interesting (to me) location, e.g. on the same 'side' as the preferred fairway landing area and tucked etiher way at the back or very close to the front of the green; or, if it was to be on an easy diagonal from the preferred landing area, I'd tuck it just behind a bunker, not directly behind it, though, but more off to one side or the other of the bunker, so that golfers wouldn't be totally scared off from firing at the pin. In short, what I probably ended up doing -- without realizing it -- was setting up the course to play at its hardest, a fact that is only mitigated a little by the reality that it wasn't a very hard course to begin with. Anyway, a long post just to say that, while I assume that on most good courses today the situation is much different than mine was, it still may be a good idea for a senior team member to give some lessons to the junior maintenance members on pin placements/hole locations, focused on a) what makes for a greater or lesser challenge, b) how variety should be provided in this regard throughout the round, and c) how changing weather and turf conditions over days and weeks need to infrom those decisions.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 04:14:41 PM by PPallotta »

JMEvensky

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 04:49:17 PM »
Not to threadjack,but I'd bet Matt Wharton and CGC are in the minority on care and thought given to daily set up.I think most clubs choose hole locations based on wear and tear--not anything weather related or trying to balance the golf course. The same with tee markers.

The only time any real thought goes into the process would be for a member tournament--and not always then.

Tim Lewis

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2013, 05:48:04 PM »
Not to threadjack,but I'd bet Matt Wharton and CGC are in the minority on care and thought given to daily set up.I think most clubs choose hole locations based on wear and tear--not anything weather related or trying to balance the golf course. The same with tee markers.

The only time any real thought goes into the process would be for a member tournament--and not always then.

I tried to put thought into the pins that I cut, but I was basically forced to stop because members would complain whenever pins were placed in any spots that were even remotely difficult. Luckily my home club is not nearly as afraid to cut tough, interesting pins. I think it is because the members at my club tend to be better players and more experienced with other golf courses, and types of golf than the members at the club that I work for.  

Matt Wharton

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2013, 09:02:59 PM »
Tom and Peter,

Thanks for the affirmation Tom!  Peter, I too started off that way.  My major professor in graduate school used to refer to it is as "having the gene".  For as long as I can remember I have looked at golf holes from the perspective of angles and ball placement to maximize the opportunity of holing a putt.  As to more about setup procedures at my course.  The only individuals permitted to change hole locations are myself, my two assistants and interns.  Interns must go with one of the three of us and learn our methods before we allow them to "solo" but even then I am checking their hole placements behind them and will not hesitate to call them back and have a poor hole location relocated  :).  
To reiterate more about what Tom is referring to with multiple tee placements/options we have two par 4's (one on the front and one on the back) we shorten periodically to make the hole potentially driveable.  My wife plays (7.8 index) and occasionally I will play with her from the forward tees.  I like the challenge it provides with regards to scoring and short game since most par 4's are typically driver/insert wedge of choice.  Plus it makes for a quick round when time is a premium.  Personally I enjoy par 4's where driver is not necessary thus playing from the blue tees to me is sometimes more interesting than playing from the back tees and knowing driver must not only be used but struck solidly in order to even have a chance on a given hole.
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2013, 05:44:25 PM »
A complaint I hear with some frequency regarding modern courses is that the par 3s play similarly, a club +/- from a mid-iron.  Without regard to scorecard distance, it seems to me that multiple tees and pin locations on each hole provide the opportunity to offer three or four very different tests off the tee, particularly if the holes are routed in different directions.  The same applies to the 4s and 5s with a scarcity of real long and short holes at many courses I see.  One of the things I liked about Dormie is that it has a nice mix of holes of every type.  Perhaps this is mostly the result of great architecture, but with consideration to the wind, it seems that most courses could offer good variety through the placement of tees and hole locations.  Thoughts?

Matt Wharton

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2013, 09:03:22 AM »
A complaint I hear with some frequency regarding modern courses is that the par 3s play similarly, a club +/- from a mid-iron.  Without regard to scorecard distance, it seems to me that multiple tees and pin locations on each hole provide the opportunity to offer three or four very different tests off the tee, particularly if the holes are routed in different directions.  The same applies to the 4s and 5s with a scarcity of real long and short holes at many courses I see.  One of the things I liked about Dormie is that it has a nice mix of holes of every type.  Perhaps this is mostly the result of great architecture, but with consideration to the wind, it seems that most courses could offer good variety through the placement of tees and hole locations.  Thoughts?

This can be a problem at my course if my staff and I do not take the time to ensure we set up the course with different challenges on the par 3's.  Three of our four par 3's measure 201, 186 and 200 from the blues and 231, 237 and 221 from the tips.  The fourth par 3 is a short one measuring 125 and 140 respectively.  Our tips players do not comment much but the majority of all play on the course comes from the blues on these particular holes.  We take into account the pin location when placing the tee markers in order to achieve three holes with hopefully three different club selections for the day.  This may mean having to place markers on a more forward tee box in order to achieve the desired outcome.
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Lou_Duran

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2013, 10:13:36 AM »
Matt,

Is it feasible to construct a fairly detailed setup matrix that would allow whoever is responsible for setting up the course to input the key variables- say wind direction/weather/firm or soft; competition/type of play/level of difficulty- and have the computer develop two or three scenarios (the setup man would choose A, B, or C, maybe depending on what was used last under similar conditions)?  I am thinking that it probably takes too much time to go through an extensive "manual" setup exercise each day, and that it would be too error prone.  On the other hand, maybe I am just overthinking this and golf course managers/superintendents have much bigger fish to fry.      

Matt Wharton

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2013, 12:39:33 PM »
Matt,

Is it feasible to construct a fairly detailed setup matrix that would allow whoever is responsible for setting up the course to input the key variables- say wind direction/weather/firm or soft; competition/type of play/level of difficulty- and have the computer develop two or three scenarios (the setup man would choose A, B, or C, maybe depending on what was used last under similar conditions)?  I am thinking that it probably takes too much time to go through an extensive "manual" setup exercise each day, and that it would be too error prone.  On the other hand, maybe I am just overthinking this and golf course managers/superintendents have much bigger fish to fry.      

Lou,

I can't speak for all golf course managers/superintendents but to me that is overthinking things.  When I set up the course I want the holes to be located in areas of good, stress-free turf with an element of challenge.  Now that challenging element might be difficult to get near, difficult to putt, close proximity to hazard or other feature, etc.  I want the tees placed in an area of quality turf and the hole might play long or short or neither depending on numerous factors.  With par 3's I just want to make sure the clubs most likely used by the majority of players is different so as to avoid the complaint "on the par 3's today I hit one 5-iron and two 4-irons".  Perhaps to some this may seem like a lot but to someone like me that has been doing this for nearly 25 years it is second nature.  I do it all in my head in a matter of seconds.  Of course there are other voices in there too that sometimes get in the way but that is a different thread in itself.  ;D
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Mike_Trenham

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2013, 10:38:43 PM »
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Matt Wharton

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2013, 09:04:04 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for sharing that blog post!  I would say I agree whole heartedly to most of what was stated but I got to thinking.  First of all whether or not any setup (major championship, regular tour event, club championship, regular member play, lady's day, etc.) is a good setup is subjective.  Most likely the winner of an event will think the setup was great and someone who finishes near the bottom of the leaderboard may disagree.  There is one particular member at my club who always claims one of our hole locations is a bad pin when he makes bogey or worse, regardless of how the rest of the field plays the hole in an event.  Also, whether or not a setup is a good setup depends largely on what the person or persons setting up the golf course are trying to achieve.  Mike Davis and the USGA seem to be trying to protect par at all costs but I believe the PGA Tour wants birdies (I call it the "chicks dig the long ball syndrome").  I noticed the blog was dated 2010 and he praises Slugger White and the PGA Tour for great setups but when was the last time a regular tour event had a setup that really pushed the players?  Even Tiger said to Rory last week that East Lake was setup so easy but nobody scored low because everyone was tired and played like crap.  

Sorry to ramble...

Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Lou_Duran

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Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2013, 11:57:38 AM »
Matt,

As you probably have observed in your work, the task expands to the time allotted for its completion (Parkinson's Law).  What is intuitive and relatively straight forward to you and the blogger (Mr. Suny) does not appear to be commonplace, at least in my 40+ years playing and thinking about golf somewhat seriously.  What I found at the Carolina GC on two days in 2010- a course set up well to complement its architecture- was a large exception to the rule, and probably a good reason (attention to important detail) why your club has done so well.

Much more common is the experience of a Saturday round where the once-a-week golfer finds the entries to the greens soaked, the cups cut indiscriminately to the weather conditions, and tees set to speed up play (i.e. 10-20+ yards up), as opposed to providing a challenging yet pleasurable round.  Rather than allotting time and qualified staff to setting up the course, a couple low-level maintenance employees are tasked to getting out first thing, often in the dark, sometimes with an A/B/C pin sheet in hand, and told to find flat, less-worn spots to cut cups, and move the tees X steps forward (to similarly somewhat flat, unworn areas), all before the first group reaches the green.  The complexity of the task fitting the allotted time, the golfer often gets much less than what he pays for, which, IMO, is reflected in the comparatively difficult economies facing second and third tier clubs.

My thinking of a setup matrix is that it recognizes that the superintendent has limited time and resources, and that comparatively untrained, largely non-golfing staff members do not possess the "necessities" that you and Mr. Suny have in spades.  It may be difficult to accomplish in practice, but if the superintendent and other subject experts had developed such a matrix with, say, 10-30 different configurations, it would be relatively easy to print tee and green locations for each option that the less-able staffers could then take to the course with the primary instruction to find mostly flat, unworn spots close to the specific areas thoughtfully chosen for the day.  I'd think this would be relatively easy to computerize, maintained, and applied much like weather, irrigation, nutrition, and pesticide information.

Obviously, trying to please everyone everyday is a fool's errand.  That is not the objective and mistakes will be made- e.g. a cold front may come through unexpectedly, defeating the purpose of a course setup for a mild south wind; a part of a green or a tee may not be usable due to turf conditions for a period of time; etc.   The goal is to provide the best possible experience for the customers given the limitations of scarce resources, and, IMO, a more methodical, consistent approach to course setup provides an opportunity for improvement at relatively little cost.      

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2013, 03:35:54 PM »
Lou,
One problem is Supers are not supposed to play golf, they are supposed to be working. That is not the case everywhere, but it is in many places.
My son, Ryan, who you know, is studying to be a Superintendent. He has a pretty good background as he has worked the last 5 summers on a golf course and has a nice reference from an internship last year. He just interviewed for an internship at a very well respected private club with a nationally known Superintendent. The Supt told him in the interview, in no uncertain terms, that he would not be allowed to play the course, or practice, ever. This is a leader in our industry.  

How do you learn to set up for the game if you never play the game?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2013, 03:50:59 PM »
Lou,
One problem is Supers are not supposed to play golf, they are supposed to be working. That is not the case everywhere, but it is in many places. My son, Ryan, who you know, is studying to be a Superintendent. He has a pretty good background as he has worked the last 5 summers on a golf course and has a nice reference from an internship last year. He just interviewed for an internship at a very well respected private club with a nationally known Superintendent. The Supt told him in the interview, in no uncertain terms, that he would not be allowed to play the course, or practice, ever. This is a leader in our industry. How do you learn to set up for the game if you never play the game?
Don, this is alarming scenario. As a fee paying club member, admittedly in a different part of the globe, I want the course maintenance staff at my club to be golfers and I'm happy to pay within my subscription for appropriate staffing levels such that staff are able to play/learn by visiting other courses etc and hopefully bring back ideas and good practices to improve the course where they work, my course. This goes for the other club staff as well, pro-shop, admin etc. The fact that young, keen and talented youngsters are being held back makes matters worse. Good luck to Ryan.
All the best.

Matt Wharton

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Course Setup- any available literature?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2013, 04:16:39 PM »
Unfortunately Don is correct in that many supers do not play and there are many facilities (courses, clubs, etc.) that do not encourage playing the game to the very ones entrusted to care for and prepare their courses for play on a daily basis.  Another problem here in the U.S. is this self-imposed fear of being away from the office or course that many superintendents are gripped with.  They make every excuse not to attend a local association meeting where a chance to network with peers and play other courses exist.  Everyone in this current economy and job market seem to be too scared to leave work.  I am fortunate I have both a wife and a GM that love to play.  My GM and I play every Tuesday afternoon and I find many things during a round to add to my "To Do List".  Don, put Ryan in touch with me and I assure you he will get opportunities to play golf.

Lou, I feel your pain and know all to well what you described eloquently.  Lower tier clubs and courses do not have the same level of resources and thus the paying customer doesn't always get a great deal.  I don't want to use the term lazy because there are a lot of really good supers at clubs and courses of all levels that do a great job but unfortunately there are some that embarrass the rest of us.  They would rather turn on the overhead irrigation than hand water thus leading to a myriad of problems not the least of which is an approach that is too wet to allow for a run up shot.  I honestly think the type of person needed to put forth the effort to create what you describe is most likely someone that doesn't need it as much as the guy down the street.  Perhaps this may be an idea worth cultivating... a new golf course maintenance software that allows the superintendent or other course maintenance employee to input the variables and the program spits out the course setup for the day.  Hmmm...you may be onto something Lou.  
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

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