Golfweek interview w/ Keiser

[Jim Colton]

http://mobile.golfweek.com/news/2013/oct/29/bandon-dunes-mike-keiser-architecture-oregon/?

[Jud_T]

His comment about wanting flat greens is interesting and a bit of a head scratcher.

[Chris DeToro]

Great interview.  Lots of really interesting points in there about the state of the game in the US.  I spent a few years in Germany in high school and while the game is much less accessible there, clubs have much better junior programs than we have in the US.  They really looked to build new members that enjoyed the game (and played fast) as opposed to budding tour stars

[Garland Bayley]

Jud,

Tom has said that Mike made him tone down the greens they wanted to build.

[Andrew Buck]

Jud,

Tom has said that Mike made him tone down the greens they wanted to build.

Personal preference or pace of play?

[Garland Bayley]

Jud,

Tom has said that Mike made him tone down the greens they wanted to build.

Personal preference or pace of play?

Read the interview and you will know.

[David_Tepper]

I like his interest in 4,300 yards "Royal Blue" tees.  

[Andrew Buck]

I think this is a bit of a tricky proposition

"MK: I use caddies because we’re walking-only. At The Dunes Club in Michigan, we have 25 great caddies, ranging in age from 78 to 13. Bandon Dunes has 225 or 230 caddies. I’m very proud of that. The potential of adding caddies to more courses – and it’s not going in that direction – would do wonders, far more than the junior golf programs that exist, in creating new participants. I think every young caddie becomes a golfer. . . . The golf cart killed caddie programs, and therefore we lose that flow of new golfers into the game."

I'm all for walking, and love the idea of caddies, but as golf expands the caddy dynamic becomes difficult from a cost perspective.  I think most of the clubs where the membership has substantial disposable already has a strong caddy program.  I know at my club, if members had to take a caddy, at even $50 a loop for their 10 rounds a month, 75% could no longer justify the expense of belonging to the club.  I think many would love to support a kid, but at what price regularly.  I love playing with a caddy, but at $100 - $120 generally I view it as a treat much more than an every day event.  If we want to grow the game in both numbers of players, and numbers of rounds played, the portion of rounds where the player can afford a caddy dwindles.

Of course this side also ignores the hit most clubs would take in lost revenue from carts. 

[Chris DeToro]

I think this is a bit of a tricky proposition

"MK: I use caddies because we’re walking-only. At The Dunes Club in Michigan, we have 25 great caddies, ranging in age from 78 to 13. Bandon Dunes has 225 or 230 caddies. I’m very proud of that. The potential of adding caddies to more courses – and it’s not going in that direction – would do wonders, far more than the junior golf programs that exist, in creating new participants. I think every young caddie becomes a golfer. . . . The golf cart killed caddie programs, and therefore we lose that flow of new golfers into the game."

I'm all for walking, and love the idea of caddies, but as golf expands the caddy dynamic becomes difficult from a cost perspective.  I think most of the clubs where the membership has substantial disposable already has a strong caddy program.  I know at my club, if members had to take a caddy, at even $50 a loop for their 10 rounds a month, 75% could no longer justify the expense of belonging to the club.  I think many would love to support a kid, but at what price regularly.  I love playing with a caddy, but at $100 - $120 generally I view it as a treat much more than an every day event.  If we want to grow the game in both numbers of players, and numbers of rounds played, the portion of rounds where the player can afford a caddy dwindles.

Of course this side also ignores the hit most clubs would take in lost revenue from carts. 

I like how my club handles the caddy program--we don't have any professional caddies, only young kids ranging in age from I think around 11-17 and the prices are pretty much in range with the cost of a cart, so cost isn't as much of an issue as it may be at other clubs.

But the lost cart revenue, I think, has to be the tougher hit

[Andrew Buck]

I think this is a bit of a tricky proposition

"MK: I use caddies because we’re walking-only. At The Dunes Club in Michigan, we have 25 great caddies, ranging in age from 78 to 13. Bandon Dunes has 225 or 230 caddies. I’m very proud of that. The potential of adding caddies to more courses – and it’s not going in that direction – would do wonders, far more than the junior golf programs that exist, in creating new participants. I think every young caddie becomes a golfer. . . . The golf cart killed caddie programs, and therefore we lose that flow of new golfers into the game."

I'm all for walking, and love the idea of caddies, but as golf expands the caddy dynamic becomes difficult from a cost perspective.  I think most of the clubs where the membership has substantial disposable already has a strong caddy program.  I know at my club, if members had to take a caddy, at even $50 a loop for their 10 rounds a month, 75% could no longer justify the expense of belonging to the club.  I think many would love to support a kid, but at what price regularly.  I love playing with a caddy, but at $100 - $120 generally I view it as a treat much more than an every day event.  If we want to grow the game in both numbers of players, and numbers of rounds played, the portion of rounds where the player can afford a caddy dwindles.

Of course this side also ignores the hit most clubs would take in lost revenue from carts. 

I like how my club handles the caddy program--we don't have any professional caddies, only young kids ranging in age from I think around 11-17 and the prices are pretty much in range with the cost of a cart, so cost isn't as much of an issue as it may be at other clubs.

But the lost cart revenue, I think, has to be the tougher hit

That is really smart.  I would like that.

[Chris DeToro]

It's been really successful and I think it's good for the kids too.  Though, even that cost is a deterrent to many

[JMEvensky]

I like how my club handles the caddy program--we don't have any professional caddies, only young kids ranging in age from I think around 11-17 and the prices are pretty much in range with the cost of a cart, so cost isn't as much of an issue as it may be at other clubs.

Would you mind describing how this works?

Are these members' children or neighborhood kids?Do the kids' parents sign off on any liability issues?What about the club's liability issues?

I think the opportunity for 11-17 year olds to caddie is great but I'm seeing a lot of downside for the club.I'm curious how the club deals with this.

[Tom_Doak]

Jud,

Tom has said that Mike made him tone down the greens they wanted to build.

In two projects with him -- three, if you count Barnbougle, but Mike was never there during construction -- I have only once built a green and had Mike ask me to tone it down.  And that one [the upper 9th green at Pacific Dunes] was a very minor change.

I believe what I said is that he has made his preference known for flatter greens, and that we've tried to accommodate that, and think of other ways to make the course interesting and challenging.  That's why Pacific Dunes has somewhat smaller greens and more trouble around them, than some of my other courses.

[Chris DeToro]

All of the kids are local, some are kids of members, but I would say the majority are not.  They do have to sign up and go through training with the head pro.  These kids are not giving advice or anything like that.  They carry the bag, take out the flagstick, very basic stuff.  

Out of curiosity, what issues do you see with this?  When I was that age, around 13, I hadn't started playing golf yet, but I actually umped Little League games.  I got reamed out by coaches, argued with coaches...looking back, I see more issues with that than these kids looping

[Andrew Buck]

Jud,

Tom has said that Mike made him tone down the greens they wanted to build.

In two projects with him -- three, if you count Barnbougle, but Mike was never there during construction -- I have only once built a green and had Mike ask me to tone it down.  And that one [the upper 9th green at Pacific Dunes] was a very minor change.

I believe what I said is that he has made his preference known for flatter greens, and that we've tried to accommodate that, and think of other ways to make the course interesting and challenging.  That's why Pacific Dunes has somewhat smaller greens and more trouble around them, than some of my other courses.

Tom,

Interesting that PD is your only course that you've given a Doak 10, IIRC.  I'm sure the site is a big reason for that, however it's interesting that a slight departure from your norm is the course you seem to rate highest on your own scale.

[Andrew Buck]

All of the kids are local, some are kids of members, but I would say the majority are not.  They do have to sign up and go through training with the head pro.  These kids are not giving advice or anything like that.  They carry the bag, take out the flagstick, very basic stuff.  

Out of curiosity, what issues do you see with this?  When I was that age, around 13, I hadn't started playing golf yet, but I actually umped Little League games.  I got reamed out by coaches, argued with coaches...looking back, I see more issues with that than these kids looping

It is odd that as a society we push kid's to work at minimum wage service jobs but fear paying kid's around minimum wage to work outside, get exercise and make connections would be insulting.  This does not mean to imply there aren't high school aged caddies that deserve $100+ loops, just that at clubs many clubs we don't offer caddies to members at a price that works, but will pay that same kid that same amount to bus tables.

[JMEvensky]

All of the kids are local, some are kids of members, but I would say the majority are not.  They do have to sign up and go through training with the head pro.  These kids are not giving advice or anything like that.  They carry the bag, take out the flagstick, very basic stuff.  

Out of curiosity, what issues do you see with this?  When I was that age, around 13, I hadn't started playing golf yet, but I actually umped Little League games.  I got reamed out by coaches, argued with coaches...looking back, I see more issues with that than these kids looping

The first time an 11 year old caddie gets hits with a golf ball your club will get a very long letter from his parents' attorney.He won't be commending you for giving his new client the opportunity to earn a few shekels.

[Chris DeToro]

All of the kids are local, some are kids of members, but I would say the majority are not.  They do have to sign up and go through training with the head pro.  These kids are not giving advice or anything like that.  They carry the bag, take out the flagstick, very basic stuff. 

Out of curiosity, what issues do you see with this?  When I was that age, around 13, I hadn't started playing golf yet, but I actually umped Little League games.  I got reamed out by coaches, argued with coaches...looking back, I see more issues with that than these kids looping

The first time an 11 year old caddie gets hits with a golf ball your club will get a very long letter from his parents' attorney.He won't be commending you for giving his new client the opportunity to earn a few shekels.

What if he were out playing and got hit by a ball?  I mean, I get that he's working thus the liability concern, but still, even if he were out with dad on a Saturday afternoon, he could get hit by a ball.  What difference would it make if he were 19 years old?

[Sven Nilsen]

JM -

Can you walk me through the legal analysis behind the caddy's parent's case?

Sven

[JMEvensky]

JM -

Can you walk me through the legal analysis behind the caddy's parent's case?

Sven

Ever been on a club's Board?

[Sven Nilsen]

No, but I've taken and passed two state bar exams.  And I've also signed an independent contractor agreement with a country club.

Please explain to me the legal analysis behind how a properly trained caddy who is working as an independent contractor could pursue a case against a club after being struck by a golf ball.

[Chris DeToro]

Certainly not the turn I saw this thread making  

[Chris DeToro]

Can I sue for all the verbal abuse I took from Little League coaches all those years ago? 

[Sven Nilsen]

Chris,

You can sue for anything.  Whether or not your case will get tossed out of court is another question.

Those country club boards JM brought up have worked these issues out a long time ago, as have their insurance carriers.  If there was a significant chance of a young caddy suing the club, you could bet your life the caddy program would no longer be in existence.  

Sven

[Chris DeToro]

Well, I sure hope we never run into that problem!!