"the greatest one-shot hole in inland golf"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

The photos of # 10 WFW are taken from different angles.

Neil, Gene & VK,

Ahhh yes, # 13 WFE, a great short hole with dire consequences for failure to hit the green.

Certainly a wonderful hole amongst many wonderful holes.

# 10 at WFW did have the steep slope removed from the green a good number of years ago, Neil can probably cite the year for us.

The steeper slope made recovery and putting far more difficult

[Keith OHalloran]

Among the others mentioned, I would throw the 17th at Sand Hills in the mix. I know one prominent poster doesn't agree with this chore, but I love a short three that demands precision from your short iron.

[John Kirk]

Neil,

Thanks for the nice photos.  The 1932 photo is very interesting, as I find it less natural looking but more attractive and imposing.  By 1954, the slopes had smoothed out a bit.

It's so hard to pick one par three as the best.  Both #13 and #17 at Sand Hills are great, but so is #3.  It seems the choices so far are backbreaker, 230 yard par 3.5 holes.

I like the 250 yard 12th hole at Bandon Trails much more than the average GCA member.

I also like the 210 yard 8th hole at Boston Golf Club, with its blind tee shot and chocolate drop mounding.

Are we looking for drama?  Good looks?  Extreme difficulty?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The photos of # 10 WFW are taken from different angles.

Neil, Gene & VK,

Ahhh yes, # 13 WFE, a great short hole with dire consequences for failure to hit the green.

Certainly a wonderful hole amongst many wonderful holes.

# 10 at WFW did have the steep slope removed from the green a good number of years ago, Neil can probably cite the year for us.

The steeper slope made recovery and putting far more difficult

Pat

Are you saying there is a hidden 3rd bunker back left in the modern pix?  

Assuming there is now no 3rd bunker, why was it removed?  Was the bunker removal connected with the alteration to the green?  I must say it looked like an unusual bunker placement, but very interesting.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

The photos of # 10 WFW are taken from different angles.

Neil, Gene & VK,

Ahhh yes, # 13 WFE, a great short hole with dire consequences for failure to hit the green.

Certainly a wonderful hole amongst many wonderful holes.

# 10 at WFW did have the steep slope removed from the green a good number of years ago, Neil can probably cite the year for us.

The steeper slope made recovery and putting far more difficult

Pat

Are you saying there is a hidden 3rd bunker back left in the modern pix?  

Sean,

I don't know what "modern pix" you're refering to, but, there's three (3) bunkers on # 10.

There were 3 bunkers yesterday, 10 years ago, 40 years ago, 60 years ago, and judging from the 1932 photo, 71 years ago.

How do you only see two (2) bunkers ?

Assuming there is now no 3rd bunker, why was it removed?  

I think you might be seeing a back left bunker in 1932 where one didn't exist.

Was the bunker removal connected with the alteration to the green?  

Are you positive that you see a bunker back left and not just more white areas similar to the right side of the green ?

I must say it looked like an unusual bunker placement, but very interesting.

I think you might be mistaking white areas, that also appear to the right of the green, for a back left bunker.

Since the mid-50's there was no back left bunker.

Perhaps Neil has a pre-1954 aerial that can help

[Bradley Anderson]

I would nominate the 5th hole at Camargo.

[Neil Regan]

Sean,

  Here is an aerial from 1929.
  The bunker placement has always been as in this aerial.

Pat,

  Do you remember putting on this green, prior to its lifting by George Fazio circa 1973 ?
  I am told that it was quite common to putt off the front.
  ( Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

[John Kirk]

More commentary about the 10th at Winged Foot (West).  It's right there in the immediate back yard of the clubhouse, and it looks so great.  Having a difficult, good looking par 3 as a 10th hole, where an opening par/bogey to start the back 9 is a great emotional boost, has much to recommend.  The second time I visited Winged Foot and played the East course, I made sure to take a peek at that big monster.  Between that and the 9th and 18th greens, Winged Foot members are treated to an amazing lawn behind the clubhouse.

[John Kirk]

I can't believe Espinosa made a 5 from there.  Maybe the grass was thin and he skulled it.  With that said, after his pushed approach, that second shot is a full 16-20 feet below the green.  Lob it up and make your 4!

From my hometown course, Stanford University #14 is now 197 yards (member tees about 155-165) over the San Francisquito Creek to an amphitheater on the other side.  No bunkers, just a big steep green.  Isn't that sweet?

Photos by Joann Dost:



 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

  Here is an aerial from 1929.
  The bunker placement has always been as in this aerial.

Pat,

  Do you remember putting on this green, prior to its lifting by George Fazio circa 1973 ?

Yes, I played it several times a year from the mid to late 50's thru the 60's and into the 70's and beyond

I can never recall playing the hole when the pin wasn't in the middle to back of the green.
I can't ever recall a front hole location.


I am told that it was quite common to putt off the front.
  ( Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

In the mid to late 50's, thru the 60's and into the 70's green speeds were much slower.
Still it presented a challenge.
The green is narrow, given the length of the hole and it's elevated well above it's surrounds.

It was a formidable hole as 190 yards in the 50's, 60's and 70's was a daunting shot even to a green well below the tee.

If you missed the green above the pin ( a rare occurrence) recovery was impossible.

If you hit the green above 4 or 8 o'clock, relative to the hole location, putting was very difficult.

While I occasionally missed the green left, I more often missed it right and considered myself lucky if I was in a bunker.
You didn't lose a shot to the field if you made 4.
Between the slope and narrowness and distance, it was a hole to be feared

I recall making two birdies during qualifying for the Anderson and feeling an enormous relief walking to the 11th tee as hitting the green didn't guarantee a par and missing the green could spell disaster, so a 2 was an unexpected and welcome bonus

[Mark Pearce]

I had always understood that Shinnecock and Bandon were reasonably proximate to the sea.  People here obviously define "inland" differently to how I do!

[Thomas Dai]

Photos by Joann Dost:

I initially looked at these two previously posted photos and thought that's an okayish hole. Then I looked again and realised that three things I'm not keen on in golf over the past few decades are present in the photos - firstly, the flower beds at the rear of the green and secondly/thirdly, what a shame that all the terrain, apart from the putting surface itself, doesn't have a similar low number of trees and isn't the same colour as the hills in background, ie not many and beige/brown. Just MO.
All the best

[Gene Greco]

If we are speaking in terms of the "greatest.."

..another candidate here in the USA would be Augusta National #12.

[Jon Wiggett]

I had always understood that Shinnecock and Bandon were reasonably proximate to the sea.  People here obviously define "inland" differently to how I do!

Mark,

if you stand on either if these courses, face away from the shore then close your eyes you cannot see the ocean and if you cannot see the ocean then it is probably inland

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

Indeed.  In that case can I throw Muirfield's 13th into the discussion? Or the 15th and 16th at CPC?

On second thoughts, I'll stick with my definition.

[V. Kmetz]

All (regarding #13 WFE)

Two things can't accurately be portrayed by picture or description

A. The surface is diabolical three times over...in "Contour" (like putting over and around the a Volkwagen bug with a dent in the roof, tilted off the earth); in "Orientation to Play (the surface is perfectly "thin" to the tee and the difference between a safe middle distance and disaster short or long is like 6 paces...maybe) and "Speed to Front" (Because longish right - to the back center of the green is about the only place you can miss and have a chance at up and down, or 2 putt, invariably 3/4ths of players are putting straight down the slope and grain...at average speed it can be breath-taking, at tournament speed, it is a putt that takes 15-20 seconds to go 20-25 feet.)  This all to say that the green, and play on it, must be seen to be appreciated; it can't be realized through photography or 2-d video.

B.  The entirety judicious tree removal everywhere on the WF property has had a great effect here, as it allow wind to whistle through this northern plaza and combined with the thin angular target (remember six paces from safe middle and your off the green, maybe horribly so) makes club selection and pre-judgement of "hit" style (punch...over club, let wind kill it to safety...low flight...fade, draw...) really interesting.  The regular distance is 140, often plays at 135 and I think the most it can play to a back pin (with back tee) is like 155-6.  Of course even the widest range of yardages available mean short iron for many and with such a lofted club in the hand to start the deal, the wind takes on added terror.

OTHER:

1. I think though they add "psychological hazard" and are beautifully presented, the hole could play without bunkers and play nearly the same.

2.  Following that, it's a wonderful reminder of how contour defends much more effectively and essentiallly than does hazard and penalty.

3.  By members and frequent visitors, it's called the "Shortest Par 5 on the course."

4.  I have seen, on two four ball occasions,  where two people were on the green and "6" halved the hole, halved by the two players off the green.

5.  A favorite memory is caddying for Buddy Mariucci and his son Trey in the Anderson, wind HOWLING and buddy hit 5-iron to pin measuring 138...just limped on and sand pebble from sucking back down 30 yards into the basin of the false front.

6.  If this hole were on property like #7 Pebble, Tillinghast would be known for this as much as any of his individual hole designs.  This doesn't matter to me at all (its perfect and lovely in this plain, broad valley) but it is one of those understated things that make WFE a more pleasurable playing experience than the West.

cheers

vk

[Gene Greco]

Neil:

Is that Polk assisting Bahto on the 13th?

[Gene Greco]

    What's interesting is how similar the shot requirements are at the 11th at Shinnecock and the 13th at WFE.

 Approximately the same distance (135 - 150 yds) and each requires virtually the same deft placement of the tee shot or things will end VERY badly.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Add me to the lovers of Sand Hills' 13 and 17.

[John Kirk]

I initially looked at these two previously posted photos and thought that's an okayish hole. Then I looked again and realised that three things I'm not keen on in golf over the past few decades are present in the photos - firstly, the flower beds at the rear of the green and secondly/thirdly, what a shame that all the terrain, apart from the putting surface itself, doesn't have a similar low number of trees and isn't the same colour as the hills in background, ie not many and beige/brown. Just MO.
All the best

By no means am I suggesting this is one of the all time great holes.  But it has conversational value because it is a very natural golf hole, over a real creek and into a natural bowl.  The hazards and challenges on virtually every other hole mentioned is more artificial than this.  That isn't to say that a fair amount of dirt was initially moved around to create the green.  In addition, the steep slope between the creek and the green has been rebuilt once or twice after heavy rains.  Overall, I think it's a good hole with straightforward challenges.

Of course the golf course will be greener than the surrounding coastal hills.  The trees are natural, and more abundant near San Francisquito Creek.  As far as the flower bed, that's only 10-15 years old.  The red flowers in the middle form the Stanford "S", so it's got that going for it.