St. Louis courses?

[Larry_Keltto]

I will be traveling to St. Louis next week, and I'm wondering if there are any architecturally compelling courses where I can get on midweek?

The public courses I've come across that sound intriguing are: Gateway National, Pevely Farms and Missouri Bluffs.

Any thoughts on the merits of those three or others? Thanks in advance.

[Steve_L.]

I've played two of them - Missouri Bluffs & Gateway National...

Missouri Bluffs is about 30+ minutes or so west of St. Louis, and is on a fairly hilly site.  It is a decent Fazio course - really well suited for "cart ball".  There are several scenic holes, but nothing terribly memorable - I do recall that nearly each of the par-3's are drop-shots over ponds.  From what I understand it's one of the best public courses in the area.

Gateway National is just east of the city - located in Illinois.  It is a dead flat site in an industrial part of town...  The golf course was conceived as a throwback, with differing angles of play and dramatic bunkering.  Unfortunately it played very soft when I was there.  The view of the arch is great - and some very strong holes - #10 is a sporty little par 4.

Both are worth playing if you are visiting St. Louis - but neither are world-class golf - I don't know if that exists in public St. Louis golf.

[SPDB]

Try to find connections for SLCC, its terrific. Otherwise, I can put two cents in for Annbriar, a Hurdzan/Fry course just east of East St. Louis. It's 11th hole is one of the finer I have played. The rest of the course is not so bad either.

[Gary_Nelson]

I would recommend the Spencer T. Olin GC, located on the Illinois side of the Mississippi river.  It's just a 20 minute drive Northeast of St. Louis.  They held a USGA event there a few years ago.  I played it about 2 years ago and had a good time.

Enjoy.

[Evan Fleisher]

I would second the recommendations for either Gateway National and Spencer T. Olin.

Gateway National is a Keith Foster design built just a few years ago and is right downthe street from the new Gateway indy racetrack there.  If you enjoy any of Keith's other work, you'll probably enjoy this course...BUT...as stated above, due to the low-lying nature of the course on a rather flat piece of property the "firm and fast" conditions I'm sure they wished the course to play is very hard to come by.  Ultimately, the course will probably play wet and soft as several of us here have experienced.  I'd still give it a go, though.

As for Spencer T, it is over in Alton, IL located within the confines of a public park complex.  It is a Palmer/Seay course done several years ago.  They have flip-flopped the nines in the  past for some reason, but that has no real bearing on the course.  It has some strong holes, don't think they let you walk (a negative in my book), and is usually in pretty good shape.  Some tree-lined fairways, rolling elevation changes on some holes, and fairly well bunkered.  It is also worth a looksy.

[Steve Pozaric]

Gateway is good, usually well watered - it is the way they keep the bent grass fairways alive.  It is always windy.

Annbriar is another strong course.  The two nines have fairly distinctive feels with the back going through a lot of woods.

Pevely is an interesting Arthur Hills course.  It is cart only and some of the holes are set up very poorly if you have to stay on the path.  Has 2 awlful holes around a manmade lake and 1 ridiculous green.  It was more wet than expected last time I was there.  Not a bad place.  You also get unltd practice balls when there.

I like Spencer, but I prefer Gateway and Annbriar.  Spencer does have a deal running through the end of April $29 all you can play, unltd range balls and food off a ltd menu.  I am thinking about playing hookey from work one day next week.

You also might try http://www.lastminutegolfer.com/stlouis/index.htmfor some tee time deals (as a caveat:  I just came across it this week and  have never used it, but the prices do appear attractive).


If you are in St. Louis, I would be remiss in saying:  try Ted Drewes frozen custard, toasted ravioli, Italian food on the Hill.  If you go to Spencer, you should try to Fast Eddies of Bon Air - very crowded, incredibly cheap food, and ice cold inexpensive beer.

One other thing to consider, relative to downtown, Gateway is 15 min east, Spencer is 35 min north east, Annbriar is 30 min southeast, Pevely is 30 min south west and the Bluffs is 40 min to 1hr plus west.

Let me know if you would like other (golf or non-golf) suggestions.  

Steve

[MBL]

Larry-

Agree with all of the above (although I am less critical of G'way Natl ... I keep my handicap there and am a BIG fan - am a tad troubled by the lack of firm and fast, but what can you do about a bent grass track in this climate - also note that G'way is the only real walking course of the publics around here).  And would like to add a couple:

Stonewolf is a bit further east -- exit 12 off I-64 in Caseyville -- and a decent Nicklaus course (although the subdivision aspect chafes me).

Far Oaks -- located at the same exit, essentially across the street from Stonewolf -- is a fun, woodlands course; am unsure of the archie.

Winghaven is another Nicklaus course meandering through a subdivision off I-64 approx. 25 miles WEST of the Arch...another 5-10 mins west of The Bluffs (the Fazio mentioned earlier).

And nine new holes at Forest Park (previous threads have talked about the history there) are now open - I played the new nine recently and although nothing to debate Mucci or Tom Paul about, still fun; inexpensive and incredibly convenient to Clayton and/or downtown.

As for additional ammenties, take in a ballgame if you get a chance: the greatest baseball fans in the world fill Busch Stadium nearly every home game.  The Soulard area is a fun, historic area around The Brewery and StevePoz is spot-on:  enjoy a "Concrete" at Ted Drewes.  Have a great time!


StevePoz-
I just signed up for that "lastminutegolfer.com/stlouis" ... there really are some deals to be had, particularly at Gateway - will have to give "Big Sean" a bit of ribbing on Saturday!  Let me know when you want to get out together.  

[Steve Pozaric]

MB:

I was going to suggest the Cardinals, but I think they are out of town next week.

Getting out would be great - always looking to do so.  However, my time is limited with a 2 month old at home.  Let me know (email is stevepoz@hotmail.com).

Also, not sure if the "big Sean" was directed to me.  If so, I must apologize because it went right by.

I like Far Oaks as well.  Conditioning was a bit spotty when I was there last fall.  Unfortunately, they are putting in a few houses in the area around the Hole 1.  It is a Bob Goalby design I believe.

[Paul Richards]

Gateway National is a very good course as is Stonewolf, which is in the area, but is actually in Illinois.

[Larry_Keltto]

Thanks for the advice on the courses. I ended up playing two: Annbriar and Aberdeen (new Gary Kern course near Eureka).

Annbriar is the best public course I've played in the St. Louis area. If you're driving from St. Louis to the course in the morning, it's a quick trip because you're going against traffic.

The front nine ends with two solid holes, and a great birdie chance at #9. The hole that really sticks with me is #16, a long, downhill par 4, with a Donald Ross-inspired green complex. A lot is said about #11's beauty, and the praise is deserved. The people there, too, are just exceptional. The only criticism I have is that it's a walking course in theory, only. Especially the back nine. The distances between greens and tee boxes are substantial.

I'm not sure what to think about Aberdeen. It's billed as a links-style course, and that's accurate, but I doubt the course gets extremely windy, and without any wind, it's a pushover. But it's a fun track, and if they have the money to put into maintenance as it matures, I think it will be solid. The weakest hole, by far, is #17. A nothing hole.

Also, I went to Ted Drewes, the zoo, Rigazzi's, Butterfly House (can you tell I have kids?), Busch Stadium. A great week.

[MBL]

Larry-
Glad the Gateway City welcomed you with open arms!  Which did you enjoy more: the concretes at Ted Drewes or the Fishbowls at Rigazzis?  

I agree with you on Annbriar - the course is a pleasure, the people are great and the only way to walk it is to have someone in your foursome riding so that you jump on the back for the hauls from green to tee!

Best,
-MBL

[Steve Pozaric]

Glad you had a good time.  Annbriar is one of my top couple of courses.  Aberdeen is close to my home so I have played it a number of times.  The thing that baffles me is that the designer had pretty much a blank piece of canvas and I do not understand why there are a large number of pure back and forth holes on the back nine.  Oh well.  In any event, I hope they get it in good condition as it is so close - btw, how was conditioning?  Also, the wind will blow there (maybe not often) -  I have been there when the flagsticks were at 45 deg and my ball was moving back and forth on the greens!

Steve Pozaric

[Larry_Keltto]

Steve:

I thought the conditioning was so-so, but I attributed that mostly to the course's youth. The greens appeared to have been top-dressed recently, so it was hard to evaluate them. I was impressed with the greens complexes.

You're right about the back and forth flow of the holes. Variation in orientation of the holes would make it much more interesting when the wind blows.

One other criticism: I found the clubhouse staff (who were all young) to be indifferent to the golfers.

I should say that I also was impressed with the course's apparent concern for pace of play. They had a ranger (who was a terrific guy, by the way) working from the crack of dawn on a Tuesday morning!

Another plus: it's a good walking course.

It will be interesting to see if the green fee climbs. It's a real bargain right now (about $25, if memory serves).