[jeffwarne]

Bill-
Do you really think In-N-Out is better than Five Guys?

I don't think In-N-Out deserves to have its reputation sullied by even being compared to Five Guys.

Not sure I've ever agreed more with Mr. Seitz.  Five Guys is perhaps my biggest restaurant dissapointment of the past 5 years, and anyone who knows me realizes that's saying something.  Also I must be a statistical outlier to Bogey and Brad's nascent theory...

I was somewhat surprised to see how expensive Five Guys is.  Walked out before ordering.  

Bill,
I went to a local hamburger joint last night.
2 hamburgers, 2 orders fries, one milkshake (my son had already eaten).
one glass house wine, one PBR .
$68.00 + tip

I'd kill for a Five Guys or an In-N-Out

[Terry Lavin]

It's a fast food hamburger for Chrissakes. The fact that some can obsess about burgers and Northern Michigan golf simultaneously is something else altogether.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill-
Do you really think In-N-Out is better than Five Guys?

I don't think In-N-Out deserves to have its reputation sullied by even being compared to Five Guys.

Not sure I've ever agreed more with Mr. Seitz.  Five Guys is perhaps my biggest restaurant dissapointment of the past 5 years, and anyone who knows me realizes that's saying something.  Also I must be a statistical outlier to Bogey and Brad's nascent theory...

I was somewhat surprised to see how expensive Five Guys is.  Walked out before ordering.  

Bill,
I went to a local hamburger joint last night.
2 hamburgers, 2 orders fries, one milkshake (my son had already eaten).
one glass house wine, one PBR .
$68.00 + tip

I'd kill for a Five Guys or an In-N-Out

It's possible you live in the wrong neighborhood!

[Jason Thurman]

It's a fast food hamburger for Chrissakes. The fact that some can obsess about burgers and Northern Michigan golf simultaneously is something else altogether.

[Steve Kline]

I don't get the big deal regarding Five Guys. Is it the ridiculous amount of fries for the typical overwhelmingly fat American? Their burgers are just like a lot of others. Frankly, I'd rather just get some Wendy's. Of course, my dining tastes are decidedly against fast food. I don't eat it all anymore.

I do get the big deal regarding Kingsley. One of my favorite courses. I have not played Crystal Downs though.

[Steve Lang]

   Mike,  

The greasy slide into the burger matrix for personal perspectives is perhaps the most interesting thing coming out here yet..  I've eaten at 5 Guys but don't go out of my way to do so..  what would that be on the Doak scale?

if the young and the restless want to wear that walking badge of pride on their chest, fine, I'm still walking after 52 yrs playing, but frankly I get a lot less tired riding...  for the handful of times I've played Kingsley we've always taken a cart, though I do get out and walk throughout the round

perhaps a better culinary question could be preference for steak cuts or better yet, carolina vs memphis vs st louis ribs

(p.s. ...is Tony Roma's in Palm Springs still there or is it NLE or verboten for today's pc diet?)

[Jason Thurman]

Wasn't it Pete Dye who said "If you make these guys think, that's when their wheels come off"? My friend from Nashville is trolling us all with this thread. It's a simple formula.

1. Say you have a theory - get the people intrigued
2. Name names - get the people wondering what they said that led to the evolution of the theory
3. Mention the thread that inspired the theory in passing - trust the people to start extrapolating the heretofore unspoken theory onto multiple threads and deciding what the theory is even though it hasn't been revealed
4. Move the discussion that the thread's premise asks for (revealing of ages) to PM - allow the thread to progress without a roadmap
5. Never actually reveal the theory - let the thread continue to progress itself and make everyone think harder about what the theory might be
6. Sit back and watch the discussion turn from walking vs riding, Crystal vs Kingsley, and subtlety vs boldness all the way into the inevitable devolution into fast food hamburgers and stupid memes from me.

For anyone who thinks that the young guys on this forum can't appreciate subtlety, know that I am personally dazzled by Michael's display of it in this thread. His approach is SO much more provocative than the other formula used so often on this site to try to get the people thinking:

1. Post an incomplete question as a thread title
2. Post every other reply in the thread to tell the previous poster how incorrect he is

[Mike Hendren]

I asked for the ages of the eleven posters on this thread that I sense were apologists (a complimentary term) for Kingsley Club.  With the exception of two outliers - aged 17 and 53, the ages of the remainig posters ranged from 27 to 41, squarely in the GenX (though I don't like that term) cohort.  The average age of the 11 was 35.2 years old.   I was not surprised at all.

Background:  I have a development client whose two principals are in their mid-thirties.  They routinely develop infill residential properties, both single and multi-family through the economic downturn without a hiccup by knowing their target market and being smarter than everybody else.  Both are Vanderbilt educated and immensely likeable.  I passed on their first pioneering project, the adaptive re-use of a aged manufacturing facility into loft apartments.  They were off and running, never looking back, developing projects in what I (55 years old) considered marginal locations with floorplans that I found unappealing.  For example, no massive walk-in closets, since their target market stores their closing under the bed.  They quickly made believers out of me and have become the best real estate development client of our bank.  

They, and others or their ilk continue to challenge experience and conventional wisdom, not eschewing it altogether, but bringing an entrepreneural/risk taking talent to the table.

I can't help but wonder if we're seeing a similar impact on this website with respect to golf architecture and the perspective and thoughts of our younger members.  Personally, while I like Kingsley Club a lot, I don't think it can carry Crystal Down's jockstrap, and have CD winning the clumsy match play 5 up.  It's not that I'm "wrong" but it's likely that I am bringing a closed mind (something altogether different than "bias") to the treehouse.

Regardless of our opinion on the relative merits of the two courses, I think it is extremely beneficial to view golf course architecture through the eys of this generation.  Maybe they're the ones that really "get it" after all.

FWIW, you'd think my 20 year old son would have effectively taught me this lesson.  I foolishly tried to raise him to be like me, finally capitulating and embracing his uniqueness and supporting his decision to attend  art school in LA.

My thanks to the Kingsley apologists.  

Bogey

[Jason Thurman]

Michael, I hope you're right. It's probably not fair to put me in a group with the Kingsley Apologists. I think it's a very good course, but must admit that I don't think it measures up to Crystal Downs. Few courses do. However, it is my favorite club that I've visited and I can't think of anywhere that I'd rather be a member. The golf is just a small factor in that assessment for me, and it does rank easily inside my 90th percentile for golf courses played. More than that though, I love the vibe of the place. I love the cottages and especially the River Camp. I love the general feeling of being "out there" and the simplicity of the operation. And honestly, I love the members, or at least the ones that I've met. Because I love the club so much, I've been openly stating that I'm trying to be a bit biased with my judging in the other thread. Not only will it make the match between the two courses more interesting until the later stages, but it also hopefully shines a light on some of the things that get glossed over in a hole-by-hole scoring format.

I do think, though, that conventional wisdom is often wrong, and I have to admit that when I hear younger guys using the words of the ODGs as anything less like a rule of thumb and more like a law, I get a little bit mortified. I also want to puke when I hear friends of mine raving about "real music" like classic rock. Loving classics is one thing. Believing that they are the cosmos is another.

I love Crystal Downs just a little bit less than I love the Dunes course at The Prairie Club (as we've discussed before). I've never played a Ross course I didn't like, nor have I ever played a Keith Foster course I didn't like. I once found one of my Merle Haggard cds left in the case for Outkast's Stankonia. In the last week I've listened to whole albums by Skrillex, Frank Sinatra, Bob Dylan, Pusha T, and The Stone Roses. I don't believe in genres, consensus, or the downward spiral of modernity. I just love what's great.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

I was wondering when you would get to your point, and not too surprised to see what it is.

However, it does hit close to home, since it is not that long ago that I was considered one of the principal guys to Question Authority -- some people think I still do .  And, it's intriguing that when I was their age, Crystal Downs was on the outside of the club of great courses looking in, as far as conventional wisdom was concerned.

So, I do value the opinions of guys who question the conventional wisdom, and I try to have a couple of them on site for every new course we are building.  By the same token, there are probably some other Gen X developers out there who are NOT such profitable clients for your bank .  So, I'm not going to change everything I do, just because a new generation of guys think they know better.  I do feel a responsibility to all of the people who taught me what golf is supposed to be about, and I hope that I can impart some of that to this new generation, through my work.

[Steve Kline]

Bogey - you could have sufficiently described your clients as Vandy grads as it would have accounted for everything else you included.  

[Mike Hendren]

Steve, you momentarily forgot that The Big Ward is a Vandy man, so your premise is faulty to say the least.   Besides, I'm not talking about those who were admitted to Peabody back in the day.

Vol For Life

Mike

[Mac Plumart]

Personally, while I like Kingsley Club a lot, I don't think it can carry Crystal Down's jockstrap

Man, really?!?

Bogey...in your mind what was so amazing about Crystal?*



*Sidenote, I am not saying your are wrong at all.  I'm simply curious as to what makes Crystal so head and shoulders above Kingsley in your mind.  

I loved Crystal.  I thought the way you stood out on the back of the clubhouse and could see large portions of the course set an amazing tone (reminded me of Shinnecock a bit actually).  I thougth the stretch of holes on the front 9 was as good as golf gets.  And I really loved that transition from the front nine to back nine.  I do think if the maintnenance practices were tweaked it would be even better...and that is my biggest issue with the courses in its current state.

The boldness of Kingsley and the uniqueness of it is what made it special to me.  Along with many other things.

  

[Lou_Duran]

Regardless of our opinion on the relative merits of the two courses, I think it is extremely beneficial to view golf course architecture through the eys of this generation.  Maybe they're the ones that really "get it" after all.

FWIW, you'd think my 20 year old son would have effectively taught me this lesson.  I foolishly tried to raise him to be like me, finally capitulating and embracing his uniqueness and supporting his decision to attend  art school in LA.

Bogey,

A good number of perspectives are worth considering.  I don't know if gca is something that some "get it" while others don't.  If something is meaningful to you, as far as I am concerned, you "get it".

While I may not be the most observant guy in the world, I have noticed a few things.  1) while fads and some customs change, human nature does not very much; 2) fundamentals are inherent in nearly all things; 3) because of (1), the laws or fundamentals of economics are immutable; 4) the argument of nature vs. nurture will not be settled.

Perhaps your young clients have discovered a niche (supply begets its own demand).  The questions are its depth and duration.  I've seen a number of developers rocking and rolling until others jumped in the market or the product was no longer hot (e.g. high-rise condos).

As to your son, I would bet that you will find a number of aspects about him that supports the adage of the apple not falling far from the tree.  To my horror, sometimes I see my son doing some of the things I did at his age, which goes to show that the best lessons are experienced as opposed to taught.

For the record, I am a huge fan of CD.  I think highly of Kingsley, but I don't "love" it (a term I learned from my son after walking a few holes on a Dallas classic course on Sat.).  I am also old.
 






  

[Jud_T]

As the old guy outlier in this statistically insignificant study, given that the old guard at Golf Magazine sees fit to have Torrey Pines in their Top 100 and not Kingsley and the old guard at Digest has Rich Harvest and no Kingsley, I'm glad I've never grown up and am proud to be lumped in with the rest of the young whipper snapper Apologists...

[Mac Plumart]

You certainly make some great points, Jud.

I've never played Rich Harvest or Torrey Pines...so maybe there are something special.  I don't know.

But I do know that Kingsley IS something special.

[Tom_Doak]

As the old guy outlier in this statistically insignificant study, given that the old guard at Golf Magazine sees fit to have Torrey Pines in their Top 100 and not Kingsley and the old guard at Digest has Rich Harvest and no Kingsley, I'm glad I've never grown up and am proud to be lumped in with the rest of the young whipper snapper Apologists...
[/quote

Jud:

Don't blame those results on the old guard.

Torrey Pines was never in the GOLF Magazine rankings until they got a U.S. Open there.  Quick quiz:  name the last U.S. Open course that's not in the top 100.  [I don't know the answer.  Bellerive 1965, maybe?]  Those Opens impress even the young dudes ... probably more than this old dude, anyway.

Rich Harvest Links is in the top 100 because ... nobody can tell me why.  Everybody loves Jerry Rich?  Raters are impressed with courses they can access and others can't?  Maybe Ed Walker should dump all you guys as members and just invite the raters    but what would that do for you?

My advice is the same to you as to certain clubs where I consult ... and the same advice I was given less than a month ago in another thread ... stop worrying about the *#^&ing rankings and just go do your thing!

[BHoover]

I'm sorry, but I just don't follow the point of this thread. I recently played Kingsley and absolutely loved it. But my favorite courses are two old classic designs by Ross and Allison--Brookside and Kirtland. How is that a factor of my age? I don't have a damn clue.

Tom, I was going to write, in response to you advice about ignoring rankings, that you should follow that advice in light of your recent thread about ranking your courses. But then I realized that you conceded the same. Instead, I would like to ask when you're going to come down to Ohio and build a course? Are you a UM fan or something? Do you hate Buckeyes? If that's the case, I can assure you that not all of us Buckeye alum are UM haters.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Old guys are forever looking to objectify and quantify and identify (truths, numbers/money, and patterns respectively), and have experience to bolster their claims, for better or worse; young guys couldn't give a shite about anyone else's opinion/truths or about how the numbers will work out or about historical patterns, and they have overflowing self-confidence to rely upon, for better or worse. Bogey's young clients are out there doing it; Bogey and I and the rest of us are in here, discussing it. The young dance, the old tap their toes -- it's all in the natural order of things. Of course, there are exceptions, just as there are with that old saying: "If you're not a socialist when you're young you have not heart; if you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no head". And it seems to me that, while there's no reason in the world for any under-30 to love Crystal Downs (their fathers' course) more than Kingsley (their course), it would be just like an under-30 year old to love best whatever it is they love best and not give two hoots about any old guy's analysis - regardless of whether it pegs them as old school or uninformed or not. That's my banal old guy analysis of this old guy's thread about an old guy's course holding its own.

Peter

[JC Jones]

However, it does hit close to home, since it is not that long ago that I was considered one of the principal guys to Question Authority -- some people think I still do .  And, it's intriguing that when I was their age, Crystal Downs was on the outside of the club of great courses looking in, as far as conventional wisdom was concerned.

I was hoping you'd bring this up.  Crystal Downs was once the bold course being championed by the young man.  It is only an old man's course in some people's eyes now because it's champion is old  

Crystal Downs remains a bold design and I'm glad Tom said what he said and did what he did because it deserves every accolade it gets, whether from old guys or (relatively) young ones, like me.

[Steve Kline]

Steve, you momentarily forgot that The Big Ward is a Vandy man, so your premise is faulty to say the least.   Besides, I'm not talking about those who were admitted to Peabody back in the day.

Vol For Life

Mike

Oh...I didn't forget as I just had a lovely round with Wardo at Dormie during the Dixie Cup. Team Vandy was quite successful that day.

[Jud_T]

 Quick quiz:  name the last U.S. Open course that's not in the top 100.  [I don't know the answer.  Bellerive 1965, maybe?]  

Atlanta Athletic Club '76

[Mike Hendren]

Old guys are forever looking to objectify and quantify and identify (truths, numbers/money, and patterns respectively), and have experience to bolster their claims, for better or worse; young guys couldn't give a shite about anyone else's opinion/truths or about how the numbers will work out or about historical patterns, and they have overflowing self-confidence to rely upon, for better or worse. Bogey's young clients are out there doing it; Bogey and I and the rest of us are in here, discussing it. The young dance, the old tap their toes -- it's all in the natural order of things. Of course, there are exceptions, just as there are with that old saying: "If you're not a socialist when you're young you have not heart; if you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no head". And it seems to me that, while there's no reason in the world for any under-30 to love Crystal Downs (their fathers' course) more than Kingsley (their course), it would be just like an under-30 year old to love best whatever it is they love best and not give two hoots about any old guy's analysis - regardless of whether it pegs them as old school or uninformed or not. That's my banal old guy analysis of this old guy's thread about an old guy's course holding its own.

Peter

P2, I wish I'd written that.

[BCrosby]

Well done Peter.

It seems to me a generational change is in the offing. There have been too many really good corses built since 1990 or so. They want a bigger presence in the top 50. Frankly, I don't see any reason why many of them shouldn't have it.

But it will take the votes and voices of mostly younger golfers to make that happen.  I say more power to them. I'm looking forward to watching the fireworks.

Bob

[Chris DeToro]

I think there's a couple things at work going on with this thread and the overall idea of the generational bias.  

In general, I think impacts to our world and the way things are today are drastically different than in the past.  We live in a much different world with technology, speed and access to information and a different consumer mindset today than has ever been experienced in the past.  I think 20 years ago, there were ebbs and flows, but in today's day and age, there are still ebbs and flows, but it's on a totally different wavelength because of the impacts of technology, economy, etc.  It's not that we don't care about the prior generation, but I think it's more a realization that things have drastically changed and won't be going back to "the way they were" any time soon

In terms of golf, I think access to the great courses may be at play.  I think many of the modern courses are a bit more accessible than many of the old guard at such an early stage of our golfing lives.  I'm not necessarily saying that those courses are better or more revered because of that, but we just generally have more experience with them.  

That being said, most of my favorite courses are the classics--RCD, TOC, Prairie Dunes, and the course that started this thread, Crystal Downs.  The boldness and ingenuity of these designs are what made them great in their day and able to still be relevant and influential today

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