[Lenny Polakoff]

I know there have been numerous threads on Hidden Creek but I just played in the MET PGA Pro-Am at ACCC and Hidden Creek this past week and felt the need to discuss once again.  I had played ACCC many times before and I am a huge fan, but had never played Hidden Creek.

Despite the fact that the course was not in optimal playing conditions, very very soft, some rough spots on the greens and all the fescue had been cut down, I was absolutely blown away.  The golf course was incredibly fun to play and required quite a bit of strategy, especially off the tee.  The course has plenty of width, but marries the perfect combination of risk / reward in selecting your lines off the tee.  Being able to challenge the optimal line gives you clear advantages for your approach shots into some really neat green complexes.  Our group consisted of 3 very low hcp amatures and our pro Steve Scott (who sealed up low pro for the event with a 67 at HC) and I cannot recall a time where so much thought went into each shot.  Really a course you have to think your way around which to me equates to fun!  The golf course has incredible variety, short holes, longer holes, and a wonderful collection of par 3's.  

For me, NGLA is the ultimate in this "fun and strategic" category but Hidden Creek is not far behind.  Looking forward to seeing this golf course in full fescue bloom as it is one of the most visually appealing courses I have ever set foot on.  From what I have read on GCA, I know Hidden Creek generally gets wide praise but in my opinion it's vastly underrated.  Not to mention the driving range and practice facility is in the league of Pine Valley and Friars Head.  Now I just need to convince my wife on why we need a national membership!  

[Rick Sides]

Lenny,
I finally got to play it a month ago and couldn't agree more!   How this is not one of the top 10 courses in NJ is beyond me.  The course is both fun to play, challenging, and visually beautiful!  I can't wait to play again if I ever get the invite!

[Tom_Doak]

Lenny:

How was Atlantic City looking and playing?  It's been a while since I've been there.

[DMoriarty]

Lehnny,

Do you have any sense of whether the soft and rough conditions are the norm, or are they possibly going through a rough patch weather/conditions wise?     I only played the course once and enjoyed it very much.  The conditions were fine and the finishing details were among the more artistic of any newer course I've played, so it is hard to picture the rough conditions.

How was Atlantic City looking and playing?  It's been a while since I've been there.

Tom,  Instead of diverting this one, maybe you should start a "Rank My Renovations" thread?

[Lenny Polakoff]

Lenny:

How was Atlantic City looking and playing?  It's been a while since I've been there.

Tom
ACCC was great. Such a neat place.  The course is also a blast to play and was in very good shape. Fairways were firm and the greens were really good.   There is not much to not like at ACCC. Another course I could walk off of 18 and head right back to the first tee.

[Lenny Polakoff]

Lehnny,

Do you have any sense of whether the soft and rough conditions are the norm, or are they possibly going through a rough patch weather/conditions wise?     I only played the course once and enjoyed it very much.  The conditions were fine and the finishing details were among the more artistic of any newer course I've played, so it is hard to picture the rough condition





I really have no basis for assessing the "normal" conditions at HC but my senses tell me that the conditions are usually pretty good.  Don't get me wrong it was in fine shape, just much softer than I suspect it normally is and was designed to play. A couple greens, most notably 11 were in really rough shape. Our caddy had mentioned something about some vandalism to some of the greens so that may be a contributing factor as well.   Regardless I think it's something really special

[Phil Lipper]

I played Hidden Creek today and the 11th green was certainly in awful shape. It didn't look like vandalism it had the pattern and look of a fungus,number 12 also had the same look although not nearly as bad.

[DMoriarty]

I agree it is really special. I know you mention it has come up a lot here, but I am actually kind of surprised we don't here more about it.  Hopefully someone will chime in and confirm that the conditions you experienced weren't typical.  To bad about the vandalism or fungus or whatever it was. No. 11 is really a fun hole.  Good uphill par 3s are such a rarity.

[Steve Lapper]

Lenny,

   A Big CONGRATS on you and Steve Scott, et.al. winning the tournament for Team Paramount. We are indeed proud to have you all representing the club!!

    Like you, I love Hidden Creek and think its one of NJ's sportiest courses. It's surprising to learn it had some conditioning issues as I've played there in the middle of humid Summer days and found fast and firm where few other nearby venues could make such claim. I hope whatever vandalism they've experienced was a one-time problem and won't occur again.

   What always fascinated me with HC was the wide variety of shots it encouraged and permitted. Unlike so many other NY-NJ courses, both the ground and aerial games have near equal weighting there. The angles of the fairways and their immediate hazards also served to give the golfer so many options for play. Great width and strategic value.

   What a pleasure you, the Steve's, and Gerry must've had to play two days at ACCC and Hidden Creek! And to have run away with the event must feel even better! Hope you left a little in Steve's tank!

[Lenny Polakoff]

Thanks Steve

We had a great time, great company on two fantastic courses.  Not to mention perfect weather.  Winning the event was certainly the icing on the cake.  I think we made something like 20 birdies between the 4 of us over 2 days and Steve Scott stared us out the first day with an eagle on our first hole, the par 5 tenth at ACCC.  

Hidden Creek has it all, that's for sure. Really looking forward to seeing it again

[Tim Martin]

I agree it is really special. I know you mention it has come up a lot here, but I am actually kind of surprised we don't here more about it.  Hopefully someone will chime in and confirm that the conditions you experienced weren't typical.  To bad about the vandalism or fungus or whatever it was. No. 11 is really a fun hole.  Good uphill par 3s are such a rarity.

I was told by a caddie when playing that the issue on 11 green was a result of vandalism and it was scheduled to be resodded.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lenny,

The "Softness" is due to recent aeration.

Phil,

The condition of the 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th and 17th green is due to vandalism.

Those greens are being redone this winter.

[Jim Briggs]

I wont call Pat the "m" word just yet, but unless he knows something I don't, the greens at HC are getting aerated this coming Monday and Tuesday (is this the only time he has ever been wrong regarding anything??).  The softness I suspect is a function of mother nature not cooperating recently.  They seem to have gotten more than their fair share of any of the rain that has been in the region lately, rain that has missed us further north and in met area.  I was last down at the very end of September and I had honestly not seen the course as fast and firm in our four years there as we did that day.  Came back in to the pro shop after 18 with an ear to ear grin that I could not wipe off my face because of how alive the course became as a result of the conditions.  After knowing looks from the staff regarding the conditions, we quickly made our way out to 1 tee to keep soaking in.  Clark since coming on a couple of years ago has really made an effort to get it firmer and faster and when mother nature cooperates the results have been special.  Well done on his part.

As Pat and others has mentioned, the conditions of some of the greens on the back are the result of vandalism.  That vandalism occured back in 2005 when vandals sprayed roundup on many of the back nine greens.  The greens were reseeded and when reseeded the mix contained a bent grass species called Velvet which was meant to give the greens a bit more of a mottled, patchy look characteristic of an older course (i'm just a hack golfer, not a greens guy, keep that in mind with any follow up questions).  The Velvet germinated more prominently in the damaged area of the greens than the other creeping bent species, which led to its dominance on those revenvated greens.  It is the Velvet that has been an issue on those geens in terms of their growth this year.  I understand a lot of lab work has been done on samples, including with folks considered to be experts on Velvet and it has left everyone puzzled.

As Pat mentions some of the back nine greens are getting resodded next week (though not all the ones he has mentioned).

Jim

[Lenny Polakoff]

I wont call Pat the "m" word just yet, but unless he knows something I don't, the greens at HC are getting aerated this coming Monday and Tuesday (is this the only time he has ever been wrong regarding anything??).  The softness I suspect is a function of mother nature not cooperating recently.  They seem to have gotten more than their fair share of any of the rain that has been in the region lately, rain that has missed us further north and in met area.  I was last down at the very end of September and I had honestly not seen the course as fast and firm in our four years there as we did that day.  Came back in to the pro shop after 18 with an ear to ear grin that I could not wipe off my face because of how alive the course became as a result of the conditions.  After knowing looks from the staff regarding the conditions, we quickly made our way out to 1 tee to keep soaking in.  Clark since coming on a couple of years ago has really made an effort to get it firmer and faster and when mother nature cooperates the results have been special.  Well done on his part.

As Pat and others has mentioned, the conditions of some of the greens on the back are the result of vandalism.  That vandalism occured back in 2005 when vandals sprayed roundup on many of the back nine greens.  The greens were reseeded and when reseeded the mix contained a bent grass species called Velvet which was meant to give the greens a bit more of a mottled, patchy look characteristic of an older course (i'm just a hack golfer, not a greens guy, keep that in mind with any follow up questions).  The Velvet germinated more prominently in the damaged area of the greens than the other creeping bent species, which led to its dominance on those revenvated greens.  It is the Velvet that has been an issue on those geens in terms of their growth this year.  I understand a lot of lab work has been done on samples, including with folks considered to be experts on Velvet and it has left everyone puzzled.

As Pat mentions some of the back nine greens are getting resodded next week (though not all the ones he has mentioned).

Jim

Jim - I believe Pat was referring to the fairways as was I when I talked about soft.  The fairways were in fact just aerated prior to us playing. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wont call Pat the "m" word just yet, but unless he knows something I don't, the greens at HC are getting aerated this coming Monday and Tuesday (is this the only time he has ever been wrong regarding anything??).  

The fairways were just aerated, hence, the course played soft

The softness I suspect is a function of mother nature not cooperating recently.  They seem to have gotten more than their fair share of any of the rain that has been in the region lately, rain that has missed us further north and in met area.


The softness is a result of over seeding with too much German Bent or Velvet gras combined with the prior vandalism.

I was last down at the very end of September and I had honestly not seen the course as fast and firm in our four years there as we did that day.  

I was there for several days last week and the fairways didn't roll out as they normally do.

Came back in to the pro shop after 18 with an ear to ear grin that I could not wipe off my face because of how alive the course became as a result of the conditions.  After knowing looks from the staff regarding the conditions, we quickly made our way out to 1 tee to keep soaking in.  Clark since coming on a couple of years ago has really made an effort to get it firmer and faster and when mother nature cooperates the results have been special.  Well done on his part.

It's a fun course to play

As Pat and others has mentioned, the conditions of some of the greens on the back are the result of vandalism.  That vandalism occured back in 2005 when vandals sprayed roundup on many of the back nine greens.  The greens were reseeded and when reseeded the mix contained a bent grass species called Velvet which was meant to give the greens a bit more of a mottled, patchy look characteristic of an older course (i'm just a hack golfer, not a greens guy, keep that in mind with any follow up questions).  The Velvet germinated more prominently in the damaged area of the greens than the other creeping bent species, which led to its dominance on those revenvated greens.  It is the Velvet that has been an issue on those geens in terms of their growth this year.  I understand a lot of lab work has been done on samples, including with folks considered to be experts on Velvet and it has left everyone puzzled.

Velvet or German Bent is a great grass for cooler temperatures, like New England and Northern NJ.
Not so sure how far south it retains superior putting surfaces.

Some areas of the greens have no grass on them.
Whether that's a residual result of the vandalism, the introduction of less than an optimal grass, Mother Nature, other factors or a combination of the above I don't know

As Pat mentions some of the back nine greens are getting resodded next week (though not all the ones he has mentioned).
I'm not sold on sodding, but understand the urgency to bring the greens back into play

[Bryan Icenhower]

they are aerating the greens on Mon and Tue of this coming week (28/29) and at that time will be resodding the 11th and 15th greens and playing temp greens on those through the winter.  They will do 2 more greens next winter as well, but can't remember which two.

Great place with a great golf course that is lots of fun to play.   

[Tom_Doak]

Velvet or German Bent is a great grass for cooler temperatures, like New England and Northern NJ.
Not so sure how far south it retains superior putting surfaces.

South German bentgrass works fine as far south as Melbourne, Australia  ... that's the grass they saved from the East course at Royal Melbourne and propagated and restored to the West course, when they got sick of the Penncross they'd planted in the 1980's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

"As far south as Australia".   That's cute.

Over the last decade or so I've heard about a "newer" strain of German or Velvet Bent.

Have you used it on any of your courses ?

On a course I've been playing since the 50's, they had spectacular greens in terms of the quality of the putting surface and they were German/Velvet bent.  Unfortunately, over time, they've been reduced to probably about 15-25 % German/Velvet bent as of today

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom Doak,

"As far south as Australia".   That's cute.

Over the last decade or so I've heard about a "newer" strain of German or Velvet Bent.

Have you used it on any of your courses ?

On a course I've been playing since the 50's, they had spectacular greens in terms of the quality of the putting surface and they were German/Velvet bent.  Unfortunately, over time, they've been reduced to probably about 15-25 % German/Velvet bent as of today

Don't they have it at Shelter Harbor?

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