[Bryan Izatt]

Hole 16





The 16th reverses direction and once again goes south, heading home for the last three holes.  It is the last of four very good par 3's, although this one is no doubt the least spectacular of the four.  As you can see in the yardage guide above the different tees give quite different angles to the green.  The gold and blue offering quite different looks for instance.

From the tee the hole reminds me of the principles of the 12th at ANGC with the angled green and the pots standing in for Rae's Creek.  The hole is of medium length for a par 3 reminding me that all the par 3's, from the White tees, are of a similar length.  None are real short, nor are any real long.  Even from the tips, the par 3's will be quite manageable for big hitters and professional players.  High winds could of course change that view.

I'm not sure about the two pots out to the right - maybe they protect a right pin from the gold tees?




From the front right corner of the green you can see the relative flatness of the green.




And another look at the green from behind looking back toward the tees.  There is a little crease to the left and just in front of the hole from this angle.  A relatively unique low profile feature I haven't seen before.




And, a look across the green on my putt track where the track illustrates the fold in the green.  Sadly the birdie putt lipped out.  I did learn that long was OK on this green.  The surround is level with the green.

[Jon Wiggett]

Again, when I first saw it I thought a very good par 3 but hopelessly over bunkered. It would be better for the removal of the two right hand bunkers and the first, third & last bunkers could also go.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Using sod wall bunkers on British links courses didn't initially arise as some fashion trend. The style came about through functional reasons alone. That's a point worth remembering.

That all said though, I agree with the general premise on bunkers stated in the last few posts.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I thought the 16th was an excellent par-3.

No doubt it had the least drama in terms of visuals and for that reason I think the bunkers were used (and I agree over-used) to jazz it up when more short grass run-off to the left would have worked fine.

But the green (plus green site) and angles worked superbly.

[Tom Kelly]

I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with The Open rota 'traditional links' style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in-between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.

I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?

[Frank Pont]

I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.

I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?

Util the next R&A director decides to back to a more historic and natural look for the Open bunkers .......

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.

I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?

Util the next R&A director decides to back to a more historic and natural look for the Open bunkers .......

Always possible, of course. But not exactly a foregone conclusion!

[Frank Pont]

Sure

[Steve Lapper]

I don't want to take this off topic by mentioning him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the revetted bunkers were at the request of The Donald to tie in more with the Open rota traditional likes style courses rather than go for the natural blow out bunker look. Personally I like somewhere in between, I think the guys at Castle Stuart did a great job.

I'm sure that's correct. Trump wants to host major events, why would you do any other style of bunker than those that exist on the overwhelming majority of links that host major events?

Actually, I believe both Tom's presumption and your follow-up affirmation are false. I recall asking Caspar Graubelle and some of the contractor folks from SOL exactly that question and their answer was that "Martin wanted continuity of aesthetic, and Trump did like them, but didn't "request" them all to be revetted pots.

Sure, The Donald definitely wants to host major events. Heck, he even put Cat-5 wiring out across the course to facilitate just that, but I don't believe it's fair to tag him for the similarity of all the bunkers.

Cheers!

[Sean_A]

For my time, despite the once again jarring bunker numbers, the 16th was the best short hole.  No reinventing the wheel, just solid golf allowing wind to play a maximum role.  My only issue other than sand is the similarity to the angle of the 17th green.  

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Oh, don't get me wrong Steve, I doubt very much that Trump said to Martin 'I want revetted pots'. But I am certain he said 'Design me a course that could hold an Open Championship' and from that the decision to build bunkers that way is basically automatic.

[Jason Topp]

This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall.  I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.

[Steve Lapper]

Oh, don't get me wrong Steve, I doubt very much that Trump said to Martin 'I want revetted pots'. But I am certain he said 'Design me a course that could hold an Open Championship' and from that the decision to build bunkers that way is basically automatic.

Adam,

   I concur 1000% when put that way. My belief is that Trump had less to do with the design outcome here than other's in his portfolio. Hawtree, et.al. went at it with smooth hand of listening to Trump, then going ahead and doing pretty much what they intended. What I do think is most interesting is that Trump seems to be highly responsive to those who make constructive criticisms of this course, i.e. the implantation of fescue replacing ryegrass. Ultimately, I'd hardly be shocked to see a small # of pots filled in or slightly repositioned. This property is Trump's golf legacy and people close to him believe he'll do most anything reasonable to get it "perfect."

  At Doral, sources close to the project tell me that Donald got along wonderfully with Gil & Jim and didn't try to impose any personal will on their redesign. Some knowledgable fans, familiar with original Dick Wilson design think the result looks spectacular.

   It'll be quite interesting to see what occurs over the next few years at TS. In the hands of John Bambury, I'll wager only good things.

[Howard Riefs]

This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall.  I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.

Indeed. Bryan's photo thread of Kiawah Ocean, while shorter in length/pages, is also a favorite of mine:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51074.0.html

[Brian_Ewen]

This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall.  I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.

+1

[Michael Whitaker]

This is one of my favorite photo threads I can recall.  I appreciate all the commentary pro and con without the flamethrowing or pandering that is so common.

I agree, Jason. It is very refreshing.

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole 17





The 17th is a longish par 4 that continues southerly and uphill towards home.  In retrospect, it seems to me that one design attribute that is consistent with holding important tournaments on the course is the ordering of the holes. The first two holes on each nine are a relatively easy par 5 followed by a relatively easy par 4.  It sort of reminded me of TPC Sawgrass in regard of being an equal start for a split tee event. At the same time the last two holes on each nine are real testers.  It would be interesting to see how the 17th and 18th might separate the leaders coming down the stretch.  In the prevailing wind, 17 and 18 would be into the wind, adding to the challenge.  The 17th is totally manufactured, residing a sit does on what was the moving dune.

From the tee the green is set off to the left (right at the edge of the first picture) and the two fairway pot bunkers seem to be saying "carry me" to get the short way home.  The carry yardage seems on the edge of doable.  But, I think it is a sirens' song.  Tug it even a bit left and you'll be down the embankment into nasty stuff.  The second shot will be manageable for most even if you goto the right edge of the fairway and the angle from there is arguably better.  The fairway is a generous 60 yards wide just short of the bunkers and narrows to a still reasonable 40 yards to the side of the bunkers.

Having snapped a hook down into the low area left off the tee, I am happy to report that there is at least one area of the rough where you can search for your ball, find it and gouge it back out.




Zoomed in from the tee gives you a better appreciation of where the green is.  I can just imagine the prevailing southerly wind coming ripping off the North Sea, over those low dunes in the background, and in your face trying to play up this hole.  Looking at the pictures now, I can't help but wonder if an awesome skyline green could have been created here.




From the middle of the fairway you can see the undulations built into the fairway and the use of a menacing pot bunker in the face of the green.  The runoff up the left side of the angled green is obviously threatening as well.




Zooming in from the left side and then the right side it is apparent that approaching from the right is preferred.  You can see more clearly here some more of the repetitive ridge and hollows on the green runoffs.







From the front right corner of the green you can see the tilt and movement of what looks like it will be a difficult green.  And, more ridges and hollows up the right side of the green.




Looking back across the green to the tee gives another perspective of the green contours, including another little crease running across between the flag and the camera.  The uphill nature of the hole is more evident, as is the proximity to the fairway of the gully along the left edge of the fairway (right side of the picture).

[Jon Wiggett]

Finally a hole where I think they got the bunkering right and at the very least didn't over bunker. Bryan, I think you are correct to wonder how good a skyline green might have been created. Once again we see a lack of imagination in the green surrounds.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

The 17th is another really good hole.

The gully down the left is well received, the bunkering is good, the sweeping dogleg gently uphill works nicely and the created swales and hollows to the right side of the green are less sharp with more space. A really strong penultimate hole.

I think you are splitting hairs focusing on a "skyline" green. In essence, the dunes at the back are very low lying and don't really detract from the visuals. I suspect they are there mainly to create some separation from the 13th green (especially whilst playing 13) which is sited close behind this one.

Interestingly, whilst walking with Caspar Grauballe through construction, he was questioning whether he would leave a skyline fairway or not (on the far right side from the tee). At the time I though he should as it would have created a long view and something different. That view would have been to the Aberdeen cityscape beyond. Upon reflection, I think the architects made the right decision in building some low dunescape in its place.

[Steve Lapper]

Finally a hole where I think they got the bunkering right and at the very least didn't over bunker. Bryan, I think you are correct to wonder how good a skyline green might have been created. Once again we see a lack of imagination in the green surrounds.

Jon

Jon,

  This hole, like Brian says, might well have turned out better with a skyline green....it's wishful, yet insightful, thinking.

  You make a consistent criticism of "lack of imagination in the green surrounds." I've played the course a good number of times and couldn't disagree with that statement more fervently. I don't know how many times you've gone round, in what different conditions, but a decent eye can't help but notice all the rolling with abandon movements aside most of the greens. What sort of imagination is missing? Please elaborate for us.

   There are plenty of hillocks, humps and crowned off sections that present enormous doses of challenge and fun for a recovery from a missed approach. What else did you expect Hawtree to put in there, windmills, clowns mouths , tombs?? It's a ridiculous claim to make especially when the Bryan's camera reveals all the movements surrounding a preponderance of greens. Much more would have been borderline silly.

  Others have chimed in that they like some features at Castle Stuart better and I respect that, however, while some holes there have wonderful greenside movements, quite a few have near zero! I think what you may be revealing is your distaste for greens set beneath or aside the dunes. While some holes do accomplish this, many are indeed set down into a dunes-like amphitheater so as to allow for play in the harsh North Sea winds.

  Interestingly, a good deal of others with notable eyes took a completely different positions. The likes of Brad Klein, Golf's Most Beloved, Geoff Shackleford, Joe Passov and others all disagree emphatically with your bias to dislike this course. Are you a superior critic to them?? I know I'm certainly not. We all know by now what distaste you have for this project, but aren't we all better off encouraging others to decide for themselves?

   This photo thread has been terrific for informing many who'll make a decision to play here. Having an opinion without the basis of fact to back it up is little more than naked disparagement and this thread should remain marvelously free of such.

[Niall C]

I think you are splitting hairs focusing on a "skyline" green. In essence, the dunes at the back are very low lying and don't really detract from the visuals. I suspect they are there mainly to create some separation from the 13th green (especially whilst playing 13) which is sited close behind this one.

Interestingly, whilst walking with Caspar Grauballe through construction, he was questioning whether he would leave a skyline fairway or not (on the far right side from the tee). At the time I though he should as it would have created a long view and something different. That view would have been to the Aberdeen cityscape beyond. Upon reflection, I think the architects made the right decision in building some low dunescape in its place.

Ally

Interesting comment. I was thinking of this hole when previous threads were talking about the views on the course and how a few "windmills" miles out to sea were going to spoil them. I remeber well the view of the skyline and while not offended by it, its certainly not the prettiest. There might have been merit in a skyline fairway to put uncertainty in the mind of the first time golfer at Balmedie as to whether there was trouble over the skyline or whatever. Either way they kind came up with a half way house, neither skyline or hidden view.

Niall  

[Niall C]

16th hole - late to the discussion but basically agree with most comment. A very good solid golf hole thats oer bunkered. If it was me I would lose the back two bunkers on the left, keep the middle two but morph them into a single bunker, and turn the front left bunker into a bank that allowed a strong running approach but deflected a weaker shot into the single bunker. I think that would not only be aesthetically more appealing but also makes more subtle rather than the boom or bust shot at the moment.

The two bunkers on the right I'd keep as they give those looking to play safe to the right something to think about. And again some very nice internal green contours. Now who do I send my design fee to ?

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Rhic,

Thanks for the continuing commentary.  I love your take on these holes, but, 2** for the 11th?!?  Oh well, different strokes for different folks.

I wonder if you played a different 12th than I did.  I could see the sea from the tee, so kind of thought it was a little downhill and, there didn't seem to me to be a hidden fairway to the right.  Perhaps your partner was having you on about cutting the right side.  Having bailed out left I can confirm that the angle was worse over there but the distance was not so great and the shot was downwind.  Did this hole not attract any Rhicelin *'s?  I thought it was more interesting than the previous hole.

  

Hi Bryan

Vis a vis the 11th, I really liked the fact that I could hit two reasonably good shots, get my ball pin high and then wonder how the hell I was going to get up and down in 3.  I think it is a fascinatingly complex hole which would probably play very differently from the left hand side of the fairway.  I'll stick with 2** but reserve the right to change after my next play.  As for the 12th, the 2nd shot is definitely downhill, but the tee shot demands height, particularly if you are trying to dut the right corner.  There was no "hidden fairway" where my high fade landed which was near the top of the right hand dunes in land that the architect never considered to be part of his design.  The fact that I hacked it out of the high dunes to 25 feet or so makes it a memorable hole to me, but overall I'd stuggle to give it 1* even if I had played it as designed.

Now onto the finishing holes.  Firstly *SENIOR MOMENT ALERT*!

My brief discussion of what I called the 14th was in fact my recollection of the 15th.  The real 14th is a brute of a hole that reminds me of the best holes at Murcar and Balgownie.  I probably forgot about it because my drive went right into Pro V1x heaven and I had to chuck a ball into the light rough and then hack my way uphill to something resembling a 7.  That being said, the demands off the tee and the rolling fairway and the simple complexity of the green make me want to give the hole 2**.  As the Dodgers used to say, Wait 'til Next Year!  But now onto the finish...

I've discussed 15 above (while thinking it was 14).  It's a hole you can think of birdie but struggle for par.  A nice medium length hole that gives you a break from the driver/3-wood experience.  16 is a hole that really suits my eye.  Again over-bunkered, but the pits serve to focus your mind on task at hand, which is to deal with the offset green though either a soft draw or a high fade.  To me it's a bit redannish, and would be a beast from the back tees into a south wind.  Bryan and I were fortunate enough to hae a north wind on this hole, and from the front tees it was a doddle.  Nevertheless, I give it 2**.

17 downwind is manageable--drive it down the right and then take advantage of the good angle to the green--,but if they put the pin directly behind the solitary greenside bunker to the left, pin point accuracy is required to get your ball near the hole.  One of my playing partners landed pin high but ended up with an 80 foot putt from the back of the green.  I hit a wedge that hit the top of the bunker and then spun back into the sand.  We both took 5s.  This green is long and undulating, and into the wind, particular from the black tees (466) it would be very difficult to get your bal close.  Another 2**.

As did Bryan, I played the 18th from the whites and downwind, but it was still 586 yards, and off the tee you had the choice of laying up right or going down a left channel and hoping you do not overdraw your ball into reeds and wetlands.  If you do either thing safely, your next shot is facing a phalanx of bunkers, separated by not completely obvious safe zones.  As a newbie I whacked my driver and ended up in light rough just outside the far right bunker.  From there a very good 5-iron (best of my past 3-4 years--where did that come from?) left me with solid 7-iron distance to the middle of the green.  I personally can't see why anybody would not play short of the driveable bunkers, then short of the nest of bunkers starting at 130 from the front, but I am not a pro.  I'd love to see a real player play this hole, even from where I played it and in my wind.  As for the back tees, which are a 50 foot climb from the 17th green, and measure 651, I wonder what the best players in the world would do from there, particularly in even a moderate south wind.  Holes like this that make me wonder, get 3*** as does Tiggles 18.

Rich
 

[Sean_A]

For mine, 17 is hands down the best hole on the course.  We cxan quibble about skyline stuff, but that would be another raised green - no thanks.  As it is, this green sits quite naturally on a ridge - superb and sublime.

Ciao

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