[Jason Topp]

Do the elevated greens work on this course?  It seems contrary to the idea of a links course in that it makes run ups appear much less viable.

Regardless, does it matter?  It is not often you see run up shots in the Open Championship. 

[Thomas Dai]

After laying up, as Rich pointed out, there is really no good lie and the 2nd shot is a good-luck-mate kind of shot to a front pin from 40 to 70 yards. Most people who would lack the length and want to lay up probably don't have that shot.
I'm still curious how the pros would play the hole.  Even for them hitting the green would be a challenge.  Can't imagine any laying up, though.

This description reminds me of Aberdovey's marvelous 16th (but without the track and train line threatening the LHS) on one of my all time favourite Par 4's.

The 3rd at Cruden Bay would be another similar hole to consider in this respect. But as Frank says above, the Pro's (and better/longer amateurs) "would just whack their drive close to the green and make their up and down 70% of the time, birdie bingo!" I guess probably all 'short' par-4's fall into such a category. Plus, if everyone laid-up to the same general spot, you'd get a divot infested area pretty quickly (whereupon James Braid would signal from the sky suggesting a bunker be placed in the spot........see other recent threads on bunker placement!).
All the best.

[Rich Goodale]

Jason

The courses that most resemble Tiggles in terms of topography are all in Connacht---Carne, Enniscrone and Connemarra.  All were designed (at least orignially) by Ediiie Hackett, who probably had as much GCA talent as Hawtree but 1/1000th of his budgets.  So....when Eddie built these courses he "solved" the massive dunes problem by mostly teeing up high down to a valley and then hitting up to a flat green.  Yo]yu dont get too many run-ups to Eddie's greens.....

Thuat being said, there was one hole on the front 9 of Carne where you drive to the top of a ridge and then hit way, way down to a green in the valley.  I was walking the course that day, carrying a few balls to see how the contours work, and on that hole I took out one of them and with only a modest amount of force bowled it down the hill from the 150 marker and made it to a green side bunker.  I rolled another one, adjusting for the contours, and it finished 10 feet from the pin.  How if only Hawtree could have built just one of those kind of holes at Tiggles (and Eddie built more on a lot of his courses) what a greater Big World of GCA it would be....

Rich

[Frank Pont]

The 3rd at Cruden Bay would be another similar hole to consider in this respect. But as Frank says above, the Pro's (and better/longer amateurs) "would just whack their drive close to the green and make their up and down 70% of the time, birdie bingo!" I guess probably all 'short' par-4's fall into such a category.

The difference is that at Cruden hole 3 there is the real danger of hitting the ball OB with your drive. Also the green is one big bowl, (almost the reverse of the 7th at Trump), so a well hit drive feed into the green. Probably your best chance in the world to make a hole in one on a par 4!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Optimal distance for what player in what kind of conditions?  
I don't know that there is a unitary answer to that question.  
It strikes me that if the distance required a player to hit a fairway wood or a driver and it was playing downwind in the prevailing wind then it would be too difficult a hole given there is no way to run it on nor nowhere good if the ball ran over.

Bryan,

Are you therefore advocating for six sets of tees on every course ?

Absent wind, is there not a range where a hole/green retains both it's challenge and it's fun ?

Do you think the "Postage Stamp" hole at Troon would work at 180, 200 and 230 ?
Or, is there a distance beyond which either the hole's challenge and/or fun are removed ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I answered your previous question as it pertains to the 6th hole at TIGLS, the subject of this thread.  I see you've started another thread on your tangential topic.  Let's keep it on that thread.

Vis-a-vis my views on multiple tees, I'm OK with them at TIGLS (apart from the silly paths).  The tees are generally hidden from each other so the aesthetics are fine for me.  I think the multiple tees at TIGLS allow for some mixing and matching if you want to do that, and provides for some different angles and looks and challenges.  It also allows a wider variety of people an enjoyable challenge on the course.  I, for one, would not want to play the course if there was only one men's tee and it was the blacks or even the golds.  

Now back to the regularly scheduled programming.

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole 8





Continuing the trek north, and on this day into the wind, the 8th is a long par 4 slap in the face after the very short par 4 7th.  I foozled my second shot, so my playing experience is not of much use, other than it was an easy bogey regardless.

From the White tee the fairway is a bit offset and presents, at first blush, a daunting carry over the marram and a smallish (for this site) dune that obscures part of the fairway.  The further back you tee it, the more the angle to the fairway is offset.  In retrospect the carry is not all that long, especially if you are playing it downwind.  The green, in the distance, seems to partly hide behind the encroaching slope of a large dune suggesting that the right side of the fairway is going to be a better option, especially for a left pin.




From near the right side fairway bunker the green opens up for the long second shot.  The fairway is expansively wide but stunningly flat after the severely rumpled fairway on the preceding hole.  I guess I'd prefer a more consistent design motif in the fairways.  I like rumpled linksy fairways.  For flat I can play at home.

From here the green also looks very much like a lay of the land creation compared to previous elevated greens.  It's nice to have some variety in the greens.  This one looks like it's receptive to a long running shot.




From the left side of the fairway and closer in you can see how the dune slope might encroach on a left pin.




From closer in at the front of the green you can see the contours on what might be a mild Redan-like green with a bit of a false front.  The green does extend left, so there are places to tuck pins behind the dune for shots played from the left side of the fairway.  It looks possible that you could run a long shot toward the right side of the green and have it deflected to the left by the slope at the front of the green.  There appear to be some subtle options that would require multiple plays to understand.

[Ally Mcintosh]

8th green - favourite on the course and the only one that doesn't have a plethora of shaped swales around its perimeter.

[Paul Gray]

Just one thought for those that have played it:

With the seemingly atypical lack of sand around the 8th green, would one trap on the right hand side not have suited? It just occurs to me that such a hazard, coupled with a right pin and a green which appears to slope away, would have presented a real hazard in that holding a recovery shot near the pin would have been tricky.  

[Thomas Dai]

The fairway is........stunningly flat........I like rumpled linksy fairways. For flat I can play at home.

Very nicely put. I felt pretty much the same playing the Glashedy after the Old at Ballyliffin. Work undertaken by big machines can reduce the uniqueness/charm/interest/enjoyment/fun factor.
All the best

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is just a wrong image.

Brian,

What would you replace it with ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Paul,

A bunker in front of the right side of the green would indeed make a right hand pin hard to get at, but the I think the hole plays difficult enough as a long par 4 (500 yards from the tips) that it really doesn't need to protect right pins.  Putting a bunker there would also ruin the possibility of running in a long second shot.  That would not be good in my opinion.

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole 9





The front nine closes, still heading north, with a second long par 4 in a row.  The 8th and 9th are a challenging pair of holes, especially into the wind.  

From the tee the hole presents as a bottle neck much more than would appear to be the case in the yardage guide.  Again, the fairway is relatively flat and is framed by the dunes.  At first I wasn't sure in the mist where the green was and then thought that it was possible to reach the bottle neck.  Into the wind it turns out the bottleneck wasn't nearly reachable with the drive.  Sadly, the roof of the clubhouse and hospitality tent get ever more obtrusive in the background behind the green the closer you get to the green.







From the fairway, the second to the green looks pretty narrow.  Turns out it was.  I leaked a hybrid a little right but thought I'd find it easily.  Noppe, another lost ball.




Zoomed in from the fairway we have another raised green protected front right by a menacing pot.  Running a long second shot in here is going to be tough.




From off the right front corner of the green you can see that contouring on the green.  It turns out to be both narrow and long (54 yards).  I'd guess this hole is going to be a medal round wrecker although it is only the 5 handicap hole.




And, another view from just short of the green and the front pot bunker.




Looking back you can see the frequently used elevated side of the green and the ridges and hollows that, in my opinion, are probably overused on the course.  You can also see that they used the way, way back pin on this day, which made the hole another 20-odd yards longer.

And, what's this, two other golfers on the course behind me?

[Mark_F]

Bryan,

I like this thread and appreciate the comments you are putting up, but there is nothing I have seen so far that would make me want to make a booking next time I am in Scotland.  The course appears somewhat disjointed, with a lot of similar features and ideas.  Maybe at £50, but not at £195.  

What makes it worth playing?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Quite liked the 9th green - Although it is the same elevated with surrounding swale style, it is unique to the course in its length and narrowness (about 50m long I think I paced).... It is situated in a narrow pocket so anything wide is severely punished but its not pushed right back against a dune giving space at the back... One thing they could definitely do here is extend a long short grass run-off to the rear of this green site.

[Adam Lawrence]

During both my rounds in opening week, July 2012, the wind was broadly from the north. Last month, it was more southerly, though on neither occasion was it more than a fairly gentle breeze. It's remarkable how much even a small amount of wind changes these holes. Into any wind, eight and nine are brutal; with a little bit of help, one of my playing partners reached the eighth, from the 463 yard blue tee, with a drive and a very short iron. But if there's a strong wind from the north, play both holes as far forward as you can!

[Sean_A]

OK, I guess we all agree on hole 7, ready for hole 8!

Not quite.  I thought this to be one of the more interesting holes on the course.  Par is a non-issue and the raised green actually makes sense  this time.  Many of the rest of the greens are raised and over its one of the big issues I have with the course.  I think the goal is to get just shy of the green or pin high either side depending on the wind.  This hole is far more interesting than any of the par 5s except perhaps the 10th.  Getting up n down is difficult, but securing a four isn't overly difficult in the least.  What is we all say, ignore length and create the difficulty at the green?  Thats exactly the 7th.  One of the best holes on the course.

Surely the worst has to be the 18th?  Wrong hole at the wrong time.  

Brian - I am with you, road signs are not a good sign on a golf course!

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Paul,

A bunker in front of the right side of the green would indeed make a right hand pin hard to get at, but the I think the hole plays difficult enough as a long par 4 (500 yards from the tips) that it really doesn't need to protect right pins.  Putting a bunker there would also ruin the possibility of running in a long second shot.  That would not be good in my opinion.

Thanks Bryan.

I actually had side right (as opposed to front right) in mind to catch the miss hit slider but I fully appreciate your comments about it already being tough enough.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mark,

I can't really give you any good reason to play it at full price.  If it turns out to be one of a consensus top ten in the world or some such, then maybe you'll find a few quid to give it a go.  Otherwise, maybe at £195 (higher on weekends) it will be the playground for the well-heeled tourist golfer (and the local residents and off season golfers).


Adam,

Maybe that experience demonstrates that the course plays firm and fast despite the rye fairways.  A good thing I think.


Sean,

Let's see - you have the 7th as one of the best and Tom D and Frank have it as the worst, and I don't think it is either the best or worst hole on the course, but somewhere in between.  Is it going to turn out to be a polarizing hole?  If it is one of the best, how does that speak to the overall course, or conversely, if it is one of the worst?  Those bunkers on 18 really got to you I see.  

[Adam Lawrence]

Adam,

Maybe that experience demonstrates that the course plays firm and fast despite the rye fairways.  A good thing I think.

Not quite sure I agree. If it's running, it's running. The wind affects rollout far less than it does carry.

[Thomas Dai]

And, what's this, two other golfers on the course behind me?

I had spotted in the previous photos the lack of other players on the course, and, at a members club they'd indeed be fellow golfers, but at a resort/P&P they arn't two golfers, their £390 on legs (sic)!
Shame the buildings couldn't have the roofs coloured to blend in more with the surroundings and be rather less conspicuous, maybe green, like some cricket pavilion roofs are (eg SCG).
Damn good photo tour. Really pleased to see the photos taken from the rear and sides of the greens.
All the best.

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole 10





Ah, the 10th hole.  There were some threads on this hole back when all we could see were the plans.  I questioned the sanity of the split fairway then.  Having now seen and played it, I'd still say that the split fairway really doesn't work.  There is no earthly reason to take the right hand path.  As the weather worsened and I was snacking, I let the two ball behind me through.  (All day that I was there, I only saw a foursome go out about a half hour in front of me and two twosomes that followed me).  The twosome I let through appeared to be one of the pros and his guest.  The pro was describing the holes as they went, it seemed based on the discussion on the 10th tee.  The discussion went something like this.

Guest: Were should I play this tee shot.

Pro: There's a split fairway but you'd have to be an idiot to play the right fairway.

Guest: Well, I'm not an idiot.  You hit first.

The pro teed off with a long iron and hit it well left of where I thought it looked like the line should be.  When they cleared, I hit it on the same line and it turned out to be a fine, albeit leaving a semi-blind second shot.  I can see no reason to challenge the barrow neck.  It would take an awesomely long second shot with a late draw to reach the green and the risk of losing a ball in the flanking dunes is too great.

The hole was playing into the wind still and is gradually uphill so it played longer than its stated yardage. From the tee, it was hard to discern where the fairway was and certainly where the green is.  The look is very low profile unlike so many of the other elevated tees on the course.  The picture shows the location of the fairway better than I could see it in person.  Perhaps on a clearer day the view would be better.  Zoomed in, the second picture shows things a little more clearly.







From the centre of the fairway near the bottleneck, some decisions need to be made about where to lay up to avoid the bunkers and have a view of the green on the third shot.  The far right of the fairway seems best.  The green is more or less behind the dune on the left where the dark green patch is.  Not very appetizing if you're trying to get home in two.  My tee shot was somewhat left of this position and shorter.  From there the second is partially obscured by a low dune.




My second ended up here, just short of the fairway bunker.  It's only 107 yards from here, but the green is completely hidden behind the dune.  A second shot further right would be preferred.




From further right and a bit closer you can see some of the green surface in a dell amongst the huge dunes.




From a bit closer in you can see more of the green and some more of the ubiquitous ridges and hollows in the surrounds, although this green is not as elevated as some of the others.  Some patching of the rye fairway grass is visible in the foreground.




From the right front of the green the hollows and ridges are very clear as is the three tier nature of the green.  As I recall there are some small folds and ledge within the tiers and near the edges.  It looks like they are cutting the marram back a bit behind the green here as well as some other places around the course.  

[Rich Goodale]

I agree with most of the comments above, Bryan.  It's a long slog uphill, particularly in the wind and has interest off the tee, as left is safe but the wrong angle for the 2nd, while right is full of potential danger--bunekr, dunes, wetlands, etc.  In the name of research, I chose to explore the explore the tea party line (i.e. far right) and lost my ball in the boggy bit well right of the short grass.  That ball deserved a rest, as it had accompanied me through 18 holes atg Pebble Beach a few weeks previous and 7 holes on Tiggles.  Whoever finds it will probably throw it back, wondering where in hell the scars of combat that covered that ball (cart path contusions, bladed lob wedge gash, etc.) came from....

I dropped out onto the fairway where a good drive of mine might have ended up and hit a low running 3-wood that ended up 30-40 yards short of the green.  None of my playing partners, all of whom hit good drives down the left came close to the putting surface, one through the fooozle route and the other two due to the wind and the elevation change.  In calm or downwind conditions the hole is reachable, but probably through the ground route only for most mere mortals.  As such, the lack of fronting hazards on the green is appropriate, IMO, as is the relative subtelewty of the green.  It's a hard to score on hole, but also hard to get a bogey (unless you take t he tea party route or execute a double foozle).  It's not a pretty hole but a challenging one.  The way it plays and loooks reminds me a bit of the 18th at Dornoch, and gets the same rating.  One *.

9 is even more of a brute, again virtually unreachable into the wind, but with a much more interesting green complex than 8.  The pros will find it a fairly hard par=4 whilst most of us will gladly walk away with a 5.  I hit a good drive and an only slightly less good 3wood that settled into the marram grass 30 yards short of the hole.  A hack out to the front of the green left me with a 40 yard putt to the back pin position.  Given all the 5 -10 putts I had already missed in the preceding 8 holes, the fact that my smash up the hill dropped softly into the front of the cup for a 4 was poetic justice.... 2*

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

I suspect that I'll get shot down for this, but another hole with a basically flat fairway and complex green surrounds.  I need to get up to TIGLS to play it but so far, most of the pictures I have seen jar just a little.

[Rich Goodale]

Burning the mid-night oil tonight in Vancouver, Bryan?

As you (and the pro) say, going down the left hand side off the tee is the only sane play, but from there, even the pros will lay up 98% of the time, even if they manage to thread a 330 yard drive through the gap, as any position on the left leaves a long blind up hill shot to a wild green complex.  The shorter hitters will have to tack their way up the hill in a series of increasingly narrow shots.  Not much fun I would guess (and did witness in a couple of my playing partners).  I managed to hit a good drive to the bottleneck then a good 3-wood that just carried the bunkers on the left and ended up just short of the bunkers.  Stupid shot that I got lucky on, but it did give me a really good look at the green.  That being said, there's too much risk in that 2nd shot, so I would play the hole next time (lay up driver/3 wood, lay up 5-iron, semi-blind 7-9 iron)--not a recipe for a fun golf hole, IMO, but enough quirkiness for me to give it 1*.

As for the right hand fairway, what was Hawtree thinking?!  For the good player it is just a lay-up, lay-up hole with a better line to the green for your third shot, but with too much risk on the drive to make it a reasonable alternative.  However......if they could have cleared out the area straight over that circular bit of gunge on the line towards the "1-299" note on the yardage chart, maybe they could have made an alternative fairway which could tempt the pros to take a bit more risk on their 1st and 2nd shots, maybe even making the green reachable in two.  Maybe the land over there was/is not suitable for that (can't remember), but if it is, why not use it?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()