[Bryan Izatt]

Brian, Mark, Mark and others,

Let's not engage with Patrick on this topic in this thread.  It will only go downhill.  If he and you want to debate environmental restrictions and other ways to design the course, let him start his own thread and you can debate it there.  Let's stick to the course as it's presented now and its merits or shortcomings.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

I complimented you on your photos and commentary, but, how is my question to the two Mark's diversionary.

They complained about the unnatural or manufactured look of the green surrounds, so I asked them how they would have avoided that "look" given the constraints on the site.

It remains a valid question.

[jeffwarne]

Very nice thread so far Bryan, but this picture... Typical Hawtree overshaping a green complex so that it bears no relationship to its surrounds.  The whole image makes it appear as if some fantastic ground was sacrificed to build a pre-determined concept.

Mark,
It's funny.
I was looking at this picture of hole #3 last night and I was admiring the shaping and smaller contours around the green.
Looks like a lot of short game options, and it's hard for e to understand why you think the many and random bumps and rolls are out of place in the middle of a dunnescape?
Wish we had a bit more greenside shaping like this.

That said, the pictures of #4 make me dizzy and make me wonder why one would clutter the hole up with 11 unattractive pot bunkers in such a stunning dunescape so loaded with beautiful natural features including an attractive wetland feature, when one-or two bunkers would have achieved the same strategy purpose.

or, even better

Seems to me, the wetland side, where there's an attractively sized fairway area,could have been made the preferred approach angle, by simply tilting the green from left to right, and making playing safe and left its own subtle penalty, and eliminated the need for any centerline bunkers on this particular hole.


That said, I'm clearly a moron, as I haven't been there.

Beautiful pictures Bryan

[Mark_F]

There isn't a hole I can think of where you would come away saying that a hole or feature was just lying there in the natural state waiting to be uncovered.  I don't think the site actually lent itself to that kind of "natural" golf course.  The dunescape is too large and too abrupt in my opinion.

Thanks Bryan, that's an interesting viewpoint.  Enniscrone has some very large dunes with a similar - although not quite as abrupt- problem with overshaped green complexes.  Theirs are probably just on the right side of being okay.  Narin and Portnoo is another course with some very modern, well-shaped greens complexes, but I didn't mind them at all, even if they don't really "fit" in with the otherwise ancient feel of the course.

Mark,

Interesting observation.  It's pretty much what I thought when I saw Bryan's pictures of the 2nd green surrounds.  Over-worked, over-complex contours which simply don't fit the land.

Mark,

It just looks like some of his work at Lahinch, like the 6th green complex, which is quite good in a way, but is overdone, to the ultimate detriment of the hole.

How convenient of you to overlook Mark F's and Mark P's attempts to move the thread away from it's original purpose.

Could you remind us, what was the original purpose of this thread and how do Mark F's and Mark O's comments differ from mine?

Patrick,

You are prescribing an ulterior motive to me that doesn't exist. You should know that if I am going to say something, I will, and damn the consequences. Bryan's thread is an excellent photo tour - I am merely commenting on my impression from those images like I would of any other tour.  You, on the other hand, believe anyone that says something negative about the course does so because of the persona of the developer.  He is fair game for this type of comment if this was the type of course he wanted.

I was in Scotland late last year and probably would have played Trump Scotland if it had been open, even if opening my wallet to hand over £195 goes against everything I would normally do.  If I had played it and liked it, I would have said so.  If I hated it, I would have sent him a personal email with my thoughts.  

[Mark_F]

I was looking at this picture of hole #3 last night and I was admiring the shaping and smaller contours around the green.
Looks like a lot of short game options, and it's hard for e to understand why you think the many and random bumps and rolls are out of place in the middle of a dunescape?

Jeff,

It's probably one of those beauty is in the eye of the beholder situations.  I agree that it does look like there might be some fun short game options, but the whole thing just doesn't look right to my eye.  I don't like the right hand bunker at all, it's completely out of place and just weird to me eye.

To me it kind of looks like they just made a massive cut to scythe a dune away where the green is, then had to recreate everything to make the hole look good and have some short game interest, but they just overdid it and created from a preconceived notion, not trying to fit in with the surroundings.

That said, the pictures of #4 make me dizzy and make me wonder why one would clutter the hole up with 11 unattractive pot bunkers in such a stunning dunescape so loaded with beautiful natural features including an attractive wetland feature, when one-or two bunkers would have achieved the same strategy purpose.

or, even better

Seems to me, the wetland side, where there's an attractively sized fairway area,could have been made the preferred approach angle, by simply tilting the green from left to right, and making playing safe and left its own subtle penalty, and eliminated the need for any centerline bunkers on this particular hole.

I was thinking almost exactly the same thing.  I too wonder why the right hand side of the fairway doesn't have a green oriented to favour an approach from near the burn/wetland.  Maybe Bryan or Rich might chime in with a thought?

Beautiful pictures Bryan

Indeed.  A fabulous effort on what looks a dreary day.

[Greg Taylor]

Can I thank the original poster for taking to post the pictures and commentary.

Reading as I have about this course, it's bizarre but for the wrong reasons I am going to have to play "tiggles"...

Like everyone else I can see that the raw material in terms of the site is unquestionably there.

Thanks again.

[Rich Goodale]

Bryan

1.  I never throw away my blingy bag thingies!  My Tiggles blingy thingy now resides proudly on my "golf mess" table in my "office" next to my Pebble Beach, Castle Stuart, 1990 Sawgrass Country Club Men's Championship and FOB (Friends of Barney) blingies, each of which I lift in separate 25 reps of "golf elbow" physiotherapy inbetween GCA.com posts.

2.  As for holes 3 and 4.  Three is a man-sized par-3 from the blacks, with a nice Scylla (bunker right) and Charybdis (hollow left) touch to it.  When I played it, the white tees were on the right (seems they have two white tees on this hole), and from there it was a really nice downwind 8 iron which I (luckily) hit a teeny bit fat, raising a puff of sand as it landed just over the RH bunker, settling down 8 feet pin high to the right.  One of my playing partners ended up in the hollow to the left but got up and down with a canny bump and run.  Standing on the green and looking backwards to the right, the views of the sands and the North Sea were as good as any course in Scotland (including Dornoch!).  Interestingly, the sliver of blue to the left of the green (from the tee) is in fact a tidal burn which is out of play on this hole but very much so on the next.  I missed my birdie putt (of course), but I still give the hole 2**.

3.  And yes, Mark F, the green looks like almost nothing at nearby Royal Aberdeen (or Cruden Bay or Dornoch or name your auld course....) but it does have a bit of Murcar in it and a lot of most of the new courses I have played over the past 10-15 years (e.g. Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Pacific Dunes, Applebrook, Old Macdonald and Dallas National).  Unnatural movement seems to be the big thing, these days, and if you think about it, why not?  The movement at the green and surrounds on these modern courses makes every player think, even the elite ones hitting 7-iron from the 205 black tees at this hole.  Is not making them think not a bad thing?

4.  Now we are on the 4th, and confronted by the most non-linksy feature of the course, an inland tidal burn running down the non-ocean side of the hole (the right, as we are heading south).  It dominates your thinking on the tee, and even great thinkers such as Bryan I. can overthink and yank it left towards the seaside dunes.... .  I managed to drive the ball straight and reasonably long (for a 67-year old geezer) and had a 5-iron to the green.  My partners (alll solid 10-15 HCP players) all did something wrong either off the tee or on their 2nd or 3rd shots and it seemed ages before I was allowed to semi-shank my 2nd into the RH greenside bunker.  My compadres grumbled about the phalanx of LH 2nd shot fairway bunkers, but they were eminently carryable and if you hit it left (as I had failingly tried to do) the contours would have brought their balls to the green.  I hit an amazing bunker shot from a down hill lie to 5 feet, but yipped the birdie putt and walked smilingly shocked   to the next green....  Overall, too many bunkers, but still a 3*** hole.

Rich

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

It's a valid question, but not on topic for this thread.  Given your penchant for turning valid questions into argumentative free-for-alls. I'd prefer that that happen on one of your threads, not mine.  Start your own thread on your question and I'll be glad to comment.

  

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

Re the 4th hole, I am going to guess that Hawtree designed the hole to favor a drive down the left side.  The green is angled to the back right a bit and to a back pin the angle is better from the left side.  To me the risk on the left is greater (stroke and distance lost ball) than that on the right (1 stroke lateral haard).  Getting to a back pin from the right side, even if the green was tilted right, would be difficult.  I'm left wondering who this hole was designed for - was it for ancient hacks like Rhic and I playing from forward tees, or for professionals playing from the tips.  How different would it play?

[Bryan Izatt]

Rich,

Can you remind me how many *'s are in the Rhichelin scale?  I will respectfully disagree with your *'s for the 3rd and 4th.  I would reverse ratings of the two holes.  The 4th just didn't fit my eye and those bunkers are just too much.  The green was really cool though.

So, where is the photo of the blingy bag thingy for the inquiring minds?

Although I'd agree that the view of the beach is pretty nice from the 3rd green (here's how the beach looked in 2010)




I think Cruden Bay gives it a pretty good run from the 9th tee.




I agree that the greens are modern looking and not like TIGLS auld neighbours, but in their own right there are an excellent set of interesting and challenging greens.

That's pretty impressive on the 4th - a 275 yard drive and a 185 yard 5 iron up the hill (or some such combination) - for a 67 year old geezer.  Bragging is allowed in these circumstances.    I guess it was playing firm and fast.

[Steve Lapper]

Bryan,

   Having gone 'round TLGC a few times, I'm enjoying your excellent photo essay. I don't necessarily agree with all you conclusions, however I do respect them. On the shot value off the tee on #4, I'd argue that reasonably well-struck shot down the right (without a slice or fade) would leave the player with vastly more room to cover the bunkers with a fairway wood, thus allowing for getting to a back pin. In fact, the only time I had any try approximating an eagle (missed), and/or a birdie (made one and missed the others), I'd used the right side of the fairway off the the tee.

  Like you, I didn't like trying to thread the needle up the left (after trying that the first go'round   ) and finding that spit of Marrum. The stacked nature of those two left bunkers also didn't look too appetizing. Cheers.

[Bryan Izatt]

Steve,

If you don't agree with my "conclusions" please feel free to give an alternate opinion.  I'm basing my opinions on one play and observation while I was playing and taking pictures and trying to stay dry and my views are obviously biased by how I played it and the weather conditions.  I take your point, you having tried it, that you can get to the back pins from the right side of the fairway.

[Rich Goodale]

Steve

One of the cool things about 4 is that off the tee you have to flirt with the tidal burn on the right if you want to reach the green in two, but if you wimp out to the left it might take you 4-5 strokes before you get a chance to putt.

Rich

PS--hope all is well.

rfg

[Steve Lapper]

Bryan,

   Unlike the opinion that the course was "forced in" and unnatural" amidst those giant dunes, I just hold the alternate opinion (right or wrong ) that Hawtree did a good job of placing tees and greens in areas that fit the terrain very well...or certainly as best as good be asked for among such towering and steep dunes. When I look at nearby Murcar and Royal Aberdeen, I think it hard to imagine that 100+ years ago their architects found easy "natural" sites.

    Just on the frontside, I thought the placement of greensites at 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 all fit naturally into the dunescape. I don't disagree that the scale of the dunes may have been nearly too steep to fit a perfectly natural golf course as compared to flatter links found throughout the Auld Sod. I also agree that there are a few too many bunkers, especially on some of the par 5s.

    I love your photo essay and think it's quite valuable for many here to see and feel what they've yet to experience for themselves.


Rich,

   Exactly as two of my power-hitting friends quickly found out!!

   All is good here...just counting down the days until I receive a brand new "artificial" knee!!! Look forward to teeing it up with you someday soon!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

It's a valid question, but not on topic for this thread.  Given your penchant for turning valid questions into argumentative free-for-alls. I'd prefer that that happen on one of your threads, not mine.  Start your own thread on your question and I'll be glad to comment.

Interesting that you seek to disrupt my threads but take exception when a valid question is posed on one of your threads.

Certainly, even a moron such as yourself sees the disingenuous double standard you espouse.

  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Patrick,

It's a valid question, but not on topic for this thread.  Given your penchant for turning valid questions into argumentative free-for-alls. I'd prefer that that happen on one of your threads, not mine.  Start your own thread on your question and I'll be glad to comment.

Interesting that you seek to disrupt my threads but take exception when a valid question is posed on one of your threads.

Certainly, even a moron such as yourself sees the disingenuous double standard you espouse.

Pure (cl)ass.






There is a definite Hawtree styled (links?) Green with the edge contouring as shown above. I have had a lot of fun playing them.  They attract criticism when one or two are dropped in on a course where the movement on other greens is not so obvious e.g. Hoylake.  But that green pictured, would fit in happily with his others at Dooks and maybe it’s because the ground there is not so extreme that they didn’t jar at all with me.   (Echoes of the Raynor thread here?).


I haven’t seen Trump but the Dunes at Lahinch are pretty extreme and yet the greens seem to fit the land there pretty well. However a lot of the interest there comes from the long game and the fairway lies you get, so maybe it’s not a good comparison.

Good thread please continue.

  

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole 5





After four holes proceeding more or less due south along the coast, the 5th reverses direction and heads back north on the inland side.  The front nine is your basic links out and back routing.  The 5th is a shortish par 4, playing into the wind on this day.  Playing with the prevailing wind it would play even shorter.  For a major championship, I'm not sure where the challenge of the hole would be.

From the tee with a wide view, the fairway looks miniscule, but is reasonably generous.  On first impression the carry looked daunting, but it turned out to be manageable even into the wind.  The rough on the left side wasn't the punitive marram grass, so it was possible to find a ball and hack it out.  

The heathery area left of the fairway is the site of three or four holes of the new MacLeod course.  Perhaps they will find some interesting micro dunescapes that they can incorporate into the new course that will make it more low profile links-like.  We shall see.  

The second tee photo is zoomed in on the 5th hole.  There appear to be three options, created by the centreline bunker, for the drive - left, right or carry.  The carry wasn't an option for me, but likely is for longer hitters, especially with the prevailing wind helping.  I suspect that laying up to a favourite distance is probably a good option too, given that the green is elevated, shallow and angled away to the left.  On one playing, it looks like the right side gives a better angle to all pin positions.







From the left rough short of the centreline bunker you can see the rumpled nature of the fairway.  This is looking more traditionally links-like.  Also, the centre-line bunker is unique on the course as it is surrounded by rough and eyelashes.  Not sure Hawtree built this one bunker like that.  It certainly stands out.







From past the bunker, a picture of some more of the rumpled fairway.  I imagine there will be some funky lies out here for the long hitters.




A small patch of more benign rough to the right of the green that I found leaving a delicate pitch to an elevated green with the ubiquitous runoffs.  And from short right when you don't execute the delicate pitch.  Notice the hollows and ridges to the back side of the green.







From behind the green looking back, the green surface is pretty benign, or is that subtle.  The MacLeod course will be off to the right.   Looks like you might be able to make an awesome Alps hole over the sand blow out behind the flag.  

[Thomas Dai]

This photo of the shaggy grassed fairway bunker in the middle of the 5th fairway is interesting. Other links courses (sometimes) have them as well.

What do folks herein think of shaggy grass around bunkers? I can understand it if you physically can't get a mower into that area or you wish to go minimalism/low maintenance but otherwise I'm not convinced of the features worthiness - you miss the hazard by a couple of inches and you're in a worse place than if you'd been in the hazard. Have a grassy mound maybe, be combining it with a bunker?

What do other folks reckon?

Great photo tour and narrative Bryan. Really enjoying it and looking forward to seeing the rest.

All the best.

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,

I think it depends on how thick the shaggy grass is. If you can play a shot with a certain degree of control then I do not see a problem. The cases for them apart from aesthetical ones which are subjective are better definition from a distance, ease of maintenance and sand retention. I do not think that the shaggy grass should be harder to play from than the bunker itself which is why I am somewhat sceptical about heather surrounds.

In this particular case I do think that the shaggy grass helps to compliment the same effect on the mounding closer to the green and to the right.

Jon

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole 6





The 6th hole is a mid-length par 3 and the second of the excellent set of four par 3's.  The setting is all world carrying from a dune across a ravine to a green nestled in amongst another grouping of dunes.  All the tees are stacked so the angle of the hole is the same for all tees.  The tee shot really calls for a draw to most pins (except perhaps a front right position behind the bunker where a fade might work) as the green angles slightly in behind the massive dune on the left.  The shot is all or nothing - there is really no good place to miss.




From in front of the green you can see the steeply sloped bank that will draw short shots away from the green, and the very penal looking revetted bunker.




From short left of the green here here is a pictures of the surrounds on the left and the left side of the putting surface.




From back left when exiting the green site you can see that there is one little saving hollow back left of the green and there is a nice view over the dunes to the sea.




From behind the green looking back to the tee, the contours of the green are visible. No easy putts here.

[Rich Goodale]

Bryan

Just keeping up with your refreshingly casual pace.....

As for my bling, as Eli Wallach once famously said "I don't need no stinkin' photos of my badges!"

As for (nearly/effectively) reaching the 4th with a drive and a 5 iron, it was downwind and ground was fast and firm and from the whites the hole was only 460.  Into the wind from the blacks I am sure it would be driver, please rescue me, please rescue me, and the rest....)

As for the Richelin (rhymes with Michelin) Scale, 3*** is the the max and I reserve my right to change these hole by hole ratings after we finish this dialogue.  As for the 4th, too many bunkers yes, but as most of them are superfluous, no real effect vis a vis the "Rules of Richelin."

As for 5.  Turning into the wind I aimed at your favorite hairy arse bunker on the left, assuming rightly that I couldn't reach it, but assumingly unrightly that I could carry the gunge....  I was ~ 160 yards from the green, but in no position to try to get there so I hacked out, hit a good lob wedge into the wind to 8 feet and again missed the putt.  Very interesting hole.  Into the wind the play off the tee is obviously (now, too late...) to the right and then hit and hope to a very wild green.   Even downwind, I see no reason to take that hairy left bunker on.  Careful drive to the right, careful shot to the green, two putts should be the mantra, but I'm sure that testosterone will overtake many players brain cells, leading to misery and consternation...  2**.

Rich

[David_Tepper]

Bryan -

I am enjoying your comprehensive tour. Thanks for the excellent pics.

I seem to recall the course being criticized in prior threads for the bunkers being uniformly circular in shape. You pics reveal there are a good number of bunkers that are not.

DT  

[Rich Goodale]

6.

What a really good hole!

As my playing partners and I walked to the tee we saw one of the 4-ball in front of us at the apex of one of Tiggles' out-of-play massive dunes off to the left, but it obviously wasn't out-of-play as he was looking for his ball up in Yeti country.  We giggled (or should I say "tiggled"?) as he eventually disappeared towards the next tee, but stopped tiggling after one of us (not me) hit it in exactly the same direction and then another of us (not me) carved two off to right into the wetlands and then another of us (not me) took out driver and hit his ball 20 yards through the green into the marram grass plantations and then I heeled a "rescue me" that slided low and left to right no more than 10' high into the wind, then must have kissed the flag on the way by before stopping 20 feet from the hole.  The two that were hors de combat picked up, my driver wielding parnter made a a great up and down and I 3-putted down the hill, leaving my first wimpish effort 8 feet short.....

I give it 2** but reserve my right to raise it to 3

Rich

[Bryan Izatt]

Rich,

On 5 it sounds like we had matching drives.  After that you clearly outplayed me to the green.  But, then I sank my putt.    Sounds like you were having a good ball striking day so far.  

How do you think pros would play the hole in a serious championship?


David,

I don't recall complaints of the pots being circular, just that they were all, well, revetted pots of the same style.  They are definitely not all circular.  The hairy one on the 5th is unique on the course in being hairy (I think).

[Bryan Izatt]

6.

What a really good hole!

As my playing partners and I walked to the tee we saw one of the 4-ball in front of us at the apex of one of Tiggles' out-of-play massive dunes off to the left, but it obviously wasn't out-of-play as he was looking for his ball up in Yeti country.  We giggled (or should I say "tiggled"?) as he eventually disappeared towards the next tee, but stopped tiggling after one of us (not me) hit it in exactly the same direction and then another of us (not me) carved two off to right into the wetlands and then another of us (not me) took out driver and hit his ball 20 yards through the green into the marram grass plantations and then I heeled a "rescue me" that slided low and left to right no more than 10' high into the wind, then must have kissed the flag on the way by before stopping 20 feet from the hole.  The two that were hors de combat picked up, my driver wielding parnter made a a great up and down and I 3-putted down the hill, leaving my first wimpish effort 8 feet short.....

I give it 2** but reserve my right to raise it to 3

Rich

Thanks for that - very entertaining.  Exactly how strong was the wind that day.  Hard to fathom a driver or even a hybrid on a 165 yard hole?  This hole could definitely be a score wrecker.  

Are your star ratings coloured ever so slightly by your putting experiences?

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