[Patrick_Mucci]

Don't they differentiate skill sets ?

As greens get faster don't they require a more deft touch, far more skill ?

Don't slower greens provide far greater margins of error ?

[Connor Dougherty]

Pat,
Yes, I do think there is a case for fast greens. It comes at the cost of many things (pace of play, cost and difficulty of maintenance, greens becoming too fast for current contours, and a slew of things that have been mentioned for years on this site). Playing Camargo in the US Am qualifier, that course was made monumentally more interesting by the greens running at 13 on the stimp. Placement was critical. The same went for Pasatiempo as I caddied for a friend there. With the exception of 1 unfair pin, placement became critical and ultimately turned Pasatiempo into one of the finest tests of golf I've ever seen. While it still plays difficult, it just isn't the same with slower greens, and I can get away with being in a lot more places.

I will comment more on this tomorrow when I have more time.

[JESII]

Absolutely!

The game elevates when the ground is firm, when the wind blows and yes, when the greens are up. The occasions in which all three are found on a good course are fantastic.

[Steve Kline]

Overall a course is harder with faster greens. Generally, I think the increased difficulty comes on the approach to the green and leaving the ball under the pin. When greens are really fast you must always be going uphill.

However, maybe it is because I grew up in an era of relatively faster greens, I find faster greens much easier to make putts on. I find it very hard to make big breaking putts inside 10 feet on slower greens. Again, that could be because I'm just not used to reading them.

[Jon Wiggett]

For good players fast greens are no harder to play than slower ones however it does mean that greens have to be flatter leading to less skill in reading the slopes. Fast greens are therefore often preferred by those with no imagination and less skill in putting. They are also very expensive to maintain and not sustainable in the long term hence so many green rebuilds.

I think that greens stimping at 10-11 with plenty of movement challenges the better player more and strains the lesser player less.

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Flatter greens are also less challenging when chipping or pitching on to them, so whilst faster greens may test putting touch, they require greens that are easier to pitch or chip onto.  I also think it is harder to get very fast greens very firm, without risking the grass.

[archie_struthers]

 

Jon, can't agree that fast greens require less imagination. If anything the more skillful, imaginative players seem to thrive on them . Our superintendent has the greens at my club cranked up,pretty good now that their is no disease pressure and they are quite fun to play, both chipping and putting .

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: Let's get to the heart of what you are asking: Will a lesser play win an event on slower greens? I don't know if that is necessarily going to happen. Is it the skill of the player or his ability to read the putt with respect to speed and break? Do the best players miss a putt because they misread it or because they mishit it - they will tell you it is because they misread it but I don't know that I would agree with that.  I should also parenthetically comment that I don't believe that greens are actually running at speeds that people believe they are.  Most greens I have seen cannot be run at 11 without some really unfair results.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon, can't agree that fast greens require less imagination. If anything the more skillful, imaginative players seem to thrive on them . Our superintendent has the greens at my club cranked up,pretty good now that their is no disease pressure and they are quite fun to play, both chipping and putting .

Archie, that is because you are mistaking feel for distance with the skill of imagination. Being able to judge the strength of a putt has very little to do with conscious imagination and a player who is good at judging distance/pace does it subconsciously. What takes active imagination is reading the amount of break on a green and how the varying slopes will effect the ball as it travels at different speeds throughout the putt.

Hence faster greens (which are by necessity flat) require less imagination. Higher handicappers have trouble on fast greens because they lack the feel for distance. A low handicapper may struggle to begin with on a faster green but will adjust quickly and it will lose its difficulty. What makes the greens at Augusta difficult are the slopes not the speed.

Jon

[archie_struthers]

 

Asked and answered.

However , you can't make imaginative plays without some speed.  For instance a backstop can't be used imaginatively on slow greens. A ridge can't be putted into to kill the speed . Moreover you don't need to think of the kind of play needed from the fairway to allow for the next shot to be easier.

Pine Valley has tremendous slope to their greens for our neck of the world. When the greens are fast  ( and firm)  the thought process to score becomes infinitely more challenging and exciting .  

I agree that it can dumb down designs, this quest for more and more speed, but wont stipulate as to the imagination argument for slow surfaces.

[Chris DeToro]

I totally agree with everything above.  I actually find faster greens easier to play and get a feel for.  I do wonder though, especially with these older courses that tend to have a lot of slope on the greens, by speeding them up to levels of 11+, are we playing the course not as the designer intended it to play?  Greens couldn't run that fast in the era they were built, so the slope was more necessary to add challenge, right?  My home course was built in 1919 and we typically run the greens at 11+ throughout the summer and have "lost" many pin positions over the years because the combination of the speed and slope simply aren't fair anymore

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

 I was taught that a proper putting stroke accelerated through impact.  On fast and very fast greens a golfer can be rewarded if he has a decelerating putting stroke.  

  Interesting that the game caught on and grew greatly in popularity when greens were very slow by todays standards.   Today we have far better conditioning, better equipment and the game struggles?

[Andrew Buck]

Overall a course is harder with faster greens. Generally, I think the increased difficulty comes on the approach to the green and leaving the ball under the pin. When greens are really fast you must always be going uphill.

However, maybe it is because I grew up in an era of relatively faster greens, I find faster greens much easier to make putts on. I find it very hard to make big breaking putts inside 10 feet on slower greens. Again, that could be because I'm just not used to reading them.

Steve,

I agree with you.  It's much easier to make relatively straight putts (because I don't worry about speed) and breakers on fast greens.  For me, I rarely have the opportunity to play on greens above 12'ish, so if I get on something that I a legitimate 13, it does test the nerves more, but that speed I really rare to come by.

[BCrosby]

I've always thought good players adjust their putting to greens speeds, fast or slow.

What make fast greens harder for even good players is chipping and recovery shots from around the greens.

Bob  

[Chris DeToro]

Totally agree with you Bob.  Short siding yourself on slow greens isn't nearly as much of a challenge--most of the slope is often negated by the speed and you still have options beyond lofting it up in the air. 

On the flip side, you could argue that faster greens provide an added element of strategy and playing for better misses in order to avoid those difficult greenside shots that are much tougher

[Michael Felton]

Overall a course is harder with faster greens. Generally, I think the increased difficulty comes on the approach to the green and leaving the ball under the pin. When greens are really fast you must always be going uphill.

However, maybe it is because I grew up in an era of relatively faster greens, I find faster greens much easier to make putts on. I find it very hard to make big breaking putts inside 10 feet on slower greens. Again, that could be because I'm just not used to reading them.

I think that has to do with the speed of the ball as it passes the hole. If the greens are really fast and the ball has enough pace on it to go 2 feet by the hole, but no more, it's rolling pretty slowly at the hole, which means it has a lot of the hole to hit and it will drop. If the greens are much slower and the ball is rolling 2 feet by the hole, at the hole the ball will be moving much more quickly, giving you less of the hole to hit and have the ball drop.

There is probably also a confidence thing. If you see a break on a fast green, you know the ball will take it. If you see a break on a slow green, it's not so obvious that the ball will actually break.

I always hope to see the greens as fast as they can be and still have them playable. If it's windy or the greens are severely sloping, then the greens can be too fast.

[Andrew Buck]

Overall a course is harder with faster greens. Generally, I think the increased difficulty comes on the approach to the green and leaving the ball under the pin. When greens are really fast you must always be going uphill.

However, maybe it is because I grew up in an era of relatively faster greens, I find faster greens much easier to make putts on. I find it very hard to make big breaking putts inside 10 feet on slower greens. Again, that could be because I'm just not used to reading them.

I think that has to do with the speed of the ball as it passes the hole. If the greens are really fast and the ball has enough pace on it to go 2 feet by the hole, but no more, it's rolling pretty slowly at the hole, which means it has a lot of the hole to hit and it will drop. If the greens are much slower and the ball is rolling 2 feet by the hole, at the hole the ball will be moving much more quickly, giving you less of the hole to hit and have the ball drop.

There is probably also a confidence thing. If you see a break on a fast green, you know the ball will take it. If you see a break on a slow green, it's not so obvious that the ball will actually break.

I always hope to see the greens as fast as they can be and still have them playable. If it's windy or the greens are severely sloping, then the greens can be too fast.

The other thing about slower greens, which I define as under 9.5 - 10, is I find myself "Hitting" the putt to make sure I get it there instead of stroking it, which often results in a pull.

[Steve Salmen]

The great equalizer of fast greens is that they can very easily turn downhill putts into undesired uphill putts.

Playing fast greens, if you leave yourself 18 uphill putts, you'll likely make a better than average score because fast greens tend to be smoother and truer.

However, leaving yourself 18 downhill putts could easily lead to a 40 putt round.

[JMEvensky]

What make fast greens harder for even good players is chipping and recovery shots from around the greens.

Bob  

It's even more than just chipping/recovery shots,IMO.

Fast greens make approach shots more difficult--added emphasis on leaving the ball below the hole.

Which then makes driving more difficult--missing a fairway,or even hitting the wrong side of a fairway,adds degrees of difficulty to the approach shot.

Fast/firm greens can have an effect on the way every shot is played.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Is defensive putting a skill set or a method to hope to save par?

We all jump on board with pace of play issues and complain when we cannot get around in less than four hours. How many events do we play in that end up being death marches as folks four putt their way around?

I like them fast but , as pointed out, what was the green built for years ago?

[ChipRoyce]

A bunch of different thoughts come to mind:

1) Its difficult for many golfers to adapt to faster greens / slower greens if they are the inverse of what they're used to playing. I'd agree with your comment with the following modification: ONCE a golfer has had the chance to adapt to the faster conditions.

2) I'd agree with Steve Klein's comment; faster greens are easier to make putts on. think about it; never up, never in. On fast greens more likely to get to and past the hole, so logical that you'll seldom come up short.

3) I tend to enjoy faster greens more; allows the contours to come into play and makes the game more interesting; although not necessarily better scoring.

4) Faster greens, esp. for public play, certainly lead to slower play. I hate slow play. I hate rounds >4 hrs.

[Mark Pearce]

The Open Championship has, over the recent years, as good a record as any other Major of identifying the best golfers.  It does so with greens that are slower than any greens on the US PGA Tour.

[Jon Wiggett]

Asked and answered.

However , you can't make imaginative plays without some speed.  For instance a backstop can't be used imaginatively on slow greens. A ridge can't be putted into to kill the speed . Moreover you don't need to think of the kind of play needed from the fairway to allow for the next shot to be easier.

Pine Valley has tremendous slope to their greens for our neck of the world. When the greens are fast  ( and firm)  the thought process to score becomes infinitely more challenging and exciting .  

I agree that it can dumb down designs, this quest for more and more speed, but wont stipulate as to the imagination argument for slow surfaces.

Archie,

I agree with the above. It is a case of getting the right balance of speed and slope. In too many cases the desire for speed has been sought with little or no consideration for slope. The point when the pin positions become critical is the point when the speed has reached its tactical limits for the green. All too often however we see courses redesigning greens to suit speed when it should be the other way around.

From a professional's point of view on flattish greens it does not matter how fast the greens become from 25 foot and closer.

As Mark points out Open Championship green speeds are quite slow by pro tour standards yet the courses do not get to look silly on the greens as they have plenty of movement on and around them.

Jon

[JESII]

I think there are other reasons dictating quality play in The Open...don't you guys?

[Dwight Phelps]

While I personally like fast greens, I do have dreams of playing on original-style 'wild' greens of the type that have gone nearly extinct or been severely remodeled with the increase in green speeds.  I'd love to play original MacKenzie greens at their original speed, just because my current frame of reference is all imagination in that regard.

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