[Bill_McBride]

I chose to play the Eden instead of the Jubilee, based mainly on review from The Confidential Guide. Sadly, the Eden has changed for the worse since those reviews were authored. I was quite pleased for the first dozen hole or so... The finish was quite disappointing.

Its a pity the plot for the Strathtyram course was not used as a practice facility in order to spare the original Eden.

IIRC some of the four holes went to the Old Course hotel grounds.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

Thanks for posting those pics of St. Cloud and Sunningdale.  The present 4th green at Sunningdale is one of the most boring there, I guess someone decided to neuter it, sometime well before I saw it in 1982.  And the St. Cloud green is unreal.

I do have one slide of the old 16th green on the Eden.  It was surely the fourth best of the four par-3 holes, but it was still an interesting hole ... a fairly flat par-3 with a very wavy green as I recall, it swelled up and down though probably not more than a foot and a half.  I will look to see if the slide is still in my collection, I remember digging it out for someone else a couple of years ago.

[Niall C]

Paul

We do indeed go round in circles. The photo of the Sunningdale green you posted was the one I was referring to in an earlier post. That and the green at St Clouds remind me of the 1st (originally the par 3 third) and the two crossing par 3's on the Eden in the way that Colt sectioned the green internally, at least to my eye. Interesting that he did that on the par 3's at the Eden. Were the 4th at Sunningdale and the 6th at St Cloud also par 3's ?

The Meiklejohn article is interesting as part of the criticism is the green surrounds, which echo Hilton's comments on St Georges Hill. His Madrid course also got similar comments. I wonder how much these courses have been softened and how much they changed perceptions and the standards in degrees of challenge that were acceptable. It seems to me that Colt and others were definitely pushing the boundaries.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

The Repair of Eden’s 1st Tee from 1937 – courtesy of the Uni of St Andrews

[Frank Pont]

Paul,

Other Colt greens with a similar side strong side slope to St.Cloud are Kennemer B4, Eindhoven 2 and Alwoodley 3.
I also  just played Simpson's Chantilly, where the second green has a very simiar shape.

[Neil_Crafter]

Frank
Alwoodley's greens are not by Colt but Mackenzie. Colt was called in to give advice early on and basically to settle a dispute between Mackenzie and other members of the committee. To the best of anyone's knowledge he did not do any actual design work there.
cheers Neil

[James Boon]

Peter,

Many thanks for the photos of the Eden course.

I think it was only my first year playing golf, I was about 14 or 15, and we had a family holiday in Scotland were I managed to convince my parents we should stop off near St Andrews. We booked for The Old Course and they said we needed to book one of the others, so I went with the Eden, knowing nothing about it. The Eden was therefore my first experience of links golf, and one I instantly fell in love with. However, when I got to those new holes, I could clearly see how out of place they were. It was obviously so bad, it gave me a migraine  which meant I missed the round on The Old Course that afternoon, and all these years later I still haven't managed a round there!

I love the crossing 5th and 8th, both great greens and surrounds, made extra special by their proximity to each other.

Cheers,

James

[Niall C]

James

In fairness it should be pointed out that they are making some changes to those new holes. For instance when I played there a couple of years ago with some locals they mentioned changes being made to the hole after the par 3 (sorry, rubbish with hole numbers), and sure enough the bloody awful mounding wasn't quite as bad. I think they had also done some tinkering with the green. Whether they used an architect I don't know.

However the two holes that stand out, literally, as not being in keeping with the rest of the course are clearly the par 4 and par 3 that skirt the pond. In one sense I can understand why he maybe used a pond given how tight it is in that corner that it helps seperate the holes but no doubt one of the professionals on here can put me right on that one  .

Niall

[Tom Kelly]

Just speculating but is the pond there as a result of the drainage problems that area of land has?

It does seem to get very wet down that way and I know the estuary broke its banks and flooded that area of the course last year so does it have a history of doing that?

The pond does look completely out of place on the course though and surely they would have been better off using some of the land the Strath was built on for the Eden and given this parcel of land to the Strath? Were the alterations made before or after the Strath was built?

[Niall C]

Thomas

Undoubtedly others are more qualified to answer but I think the changes to the Eden pre-dated the Strathtyrum. As for whether the pond is there to help drainage, I'm not sure. I feel certain it won't be there to mop up any water bursting through the bank. I wonder if it was a borrow pit for dirt to raise the ground on either side above the water table. Even with there being a good reason for its existence, its how its used that causes offence IMHO.

Niall

[Tom Kelly]

I thought if the area did flood regularly in the past before the course was there (they have done a lot of work building up the flood defences on the estuary side of the course so there maybe a history of it) then the land would have almost been marsh or wetlands before the coruse was built. If so by building the pond, like you say they can raise some of the other land and also provide a point to drain any water away from the golf holes?

I have no idea if technically this would work or if what I am saying even makes sense...I have a tendency to babble a bit sorry! But it does seem awfully strange for the pond to be there for any other reason that I can think of?!!

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Bump.

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