[ward peyronnin]

Jamie Diaz wrote a nice piece in this weeks Golfworld positing this tour provides the closest form of "pure " golf in tournament form today.

Players relying more on skill and experience than power who produce more shotmaking. Good access to course and players.

More demonstrative comraderie and appreciation for fellow competitors and fans as well.

And many of them playing, as did the career amateurs of old, because they want to and don't need to for the money.

Got me wondering if thoughtful, knowledgeable folks would comment on if you had to pick an event to attend which one would it be next year if travel wasn't a concern?

[ChipRoyce]

5 years ago I would have agreed with Jamie's comments.

Our club hosts the SAS championship, with one of the highest purses outside of the 5 senior majors. In recent years, unfortunately, the tournament has become all about power / distance and less of the qualities mentioned in your post. For instance on our 18th hole, playing 440yds or so, Kenny Perry has set the trend of bombing over 100' trees, guarding the dogleg and leaving the golfer 120yds or so in on what historically was a challenging par 4 (requiring holding a 150-160yd shot in) for the seniors. Ross Cochrane did the same on the final hole to win the tourney with a birdie.

Also, the Sr. tour tends to set courses up in pretty benign conditions. The combinations make for exciting finish, but resembled bomb and gouge vs. pure ball striking.

[ward peyronnin]

I can appreciate your experiences but surely there are venues like maybe Fox Hollow that don't favor what you describe Chip?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Should have F&F at this Senior Open


http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2011/September/Seniors2014.aspx


The R&A will be watching this event with more than the usual interest.

[David_Tepper]

Ward P. -

Funny you raise this question, as the Champions Tour is coming to San Francisco next week to play the final event of the season at Harding Park. I will be going out on Thursday.

It might be my age showing, but the Champions Tour has lost a lot of its glamour in the past few years, as many of the golfing heroes of my younger days (guys who won at least one major) are no longer competitive or are no longer competing. I can remember seeing Lee Trevino, Bob Charles, Ben Crenshaw, Tom Watson, Hale Irving, Nick Price, Ray Floyd, Tom Kite, etc. at this event in past years.

Looking at the current list of the top 30 on the Champions Tour, there are not very many golfers who interest me:

http://www.pgatour.com/champions/stats/stat.193.html

I am sure Tom Pernice and Duffy Waldorf are nice guys, but watching them play golf does not inspire me very much. Even watching major winners like Lehman, O'Meara and Sluman doesn't really move me.

With so many of the top guys making so much money on the regular tour, I wonder how many of them will be interested in playing on the Champions Tour in future years. Will the Champions Tour become the equivalent of the web.com tour?

DT    

[David_Tepper]

Looking at the list of the top 30 Champions Tour players, Langer and O'Meara have won 2 majors. There are 5 others who have won one major. Not many future Hall of Famers on that list!

I think the absence of guys like Norman and Faldo has really hurt the appeal of the Champions Tour. Some how, I can't see Mickelson and Woods being bothered to play either.

[Brian Finn]

I have been to Champions Tour events in NY (Meadowbrook), Kansas City (Tiffany Greens), and Orange County (Newport Beach) for a variety of reasons (business, visiting friends, etc).

If I were planning to go to an event next year, I would base it on a few simple factors:

1 - Ability to play other good golf courses nearby
2 - Proximity to major city and/or some non-golf things to do
3 - Quality/interest of course at which event is being held

To a lesser extent, I would also try to gauge how well the local community supports the event (attendance, buzz, etc) and perhaps take into consideration the quality of the field.

Based on these factors, I would target the following events:

Constellation Senior Players Championship - Fox Chapel GC - Pittsburgh, PA
Encompass Championship - North Shore CC - Chicago, IL
Nature Valley First Tee Open - Pebble Beach

[Brent Hutto]

With due respect to Jamie Diaz's attempt to drum up interest, I can't see any reason at all to watch a Champions Tour event beyond the chance to see one or more of your old favorite players teeing it up. Same as Senior Tour golf always was, although as David Tepper says it's no longer like Jack and Arnie are in the field.

As for it being a more "pure" form of golf he's just playing to the Senior demographic by appealing to their It Was Better In The Old Days tendency.

[David_Tepper]

"And many of them playing, as did the career amateurs of old, because they want to and don't need to for the money."

I am not sure I would agree with that statement either. Looking again at the list of the current top 30 guys, I am guessing 1/3 to 1/2 of them are making more money now than they ever made during their years on the regular tour (and they are loving it ).  

[David Kelly]

Also, the Sr. tour tends to set courses up in pretty benign conditions.

It was unbelievable how short they set up Prairie Dunes for the US Senior Open they had there in 2006.

[J_ Crisham]

The event at North Shore in Glenview,IL(north suburb) is a nice event that allows one to see Chicago during the best time of the year. You can take in a Sox or Cub game which is about the experience NOT the quality of baseball. You also have the great variety of restaurants ,museums, and the lakefront. Golfwise you have Skokie, Shoreacres nearby. To the south you have OFCC, Flossmoor, and Beverly. The options for golf are many. North Shore is an easy course for spectators as it is flat and easy to walk. Crowds are not too large so you won't get jostled.

[ChipRoyce]

I can appreciate your experiences but surely there are venues like maybe Fox Hollow that don't favor what you describe Chip?

Not saying all Senior tour events are that way; but the majority of what I've seen either in person on on TV have been set up in that way. Length for these guys is no longer an issue and its not the desire of either the tour or its players to 'be embarrassed' by conditions that are too tough.

For instance, and this goes back a few years into the early, mid 90's, I remember watching the Sr. event on Long Island, then held at the Meadowbrook Club (Dick Wilson). The seniors were playing a par 3, with the yardage around 160. A really funny thing happened on one year's telecast. One of the announcers asked the on-course reporter, after talking about how nice the hole was, what the features were off to the right on the TV screen. The on-course guy replied back, "you mean back there around 210 yards? That's the members' tees". Dead air for a second when they revealed how easy they were making the course back then.

[ChipRoyce]

I can appreciate your experiences but surely there are venues like maybe Fox Hollow that don't favor what you describe Chip?

Not saying all Senior tour events are that way; but the majority of what I've seen either in person on on TV have been set up with manageable rough and fast but puttable greens. Length for these guys is no longer an issue and its not the desire of either the tour or its players to 'be embarrassed' by conditions that are too tough. PGA tour design services 'consulted' during our greens re-do at Prestonwood and I think that had a lot to do with changing out greens from rolling contours to many different tiers with relatively flat sections that are puttable for birdies if you hit the right shelf.

For instance, and this goes back a few years into the early, mid 90's, I remember watching the Sr. event on Long Island, then held at the Meadowbrook Club (Dick Wilson). The seniors were playing a par 3, with the yardage around 160. A really funny thing happened on one year's telecast. One of the announcers asked the on-course reporter, after talking about how nice the hole was, what the features were off to the right on the TV screen. The on-course guy replied back, "you mean back there around 210 yards? That's the members' tees". Dead air for a second when they revealed how easy they were making the course back then.

[Greg Clark]

Depending on what they have planned this year, I would look at the Champions Tour event in the spring at The Woodlands in Houston.  For the last two years the tournament has included an exhibition scramble that has teamed Nicklaus, Palmer and Player together.  I think Trevino, Floyd, Miller and others of similar vintage also competed.  That event drew a big crowd.  

I have no idea if those guys want to do this again, and there is no question their golf is pretty creaky these days (although I'm pretty sure The Big 3 won the exhibition the first year).  That being said, I'd still rather watch them tee it up than most if not all of the Senior Tour regulars.  The event itself is one of the best the Champions Tour has to offer.  Some good golf down there for you to play as well.

[Ryan McLaughlin]

I go to the Friday round at the Toshiba in Newport Beach every year.  I really enjoy it.  The guys are very approachable and friendly and you really are right on the ropes.  I take my son on Sunday early and he enjoys it as well.   I don't care if its Tiger (prefer not to watch him) or Mike Reid..if you have an appreciation for good golf than you will like the intimacy of a Champions event. 

[ward peyronnin]

I suppose I am relating to Walker Cup experiences which far far override the personality cult of big time professional golf because of quality of play , access & intimacy, and course quality.

Maybe Champions Tour experience doesn't compare. I , for instance , have no interest at all in the Legends type events where these guys the old icons who are really washed up and might be better teaming with Bob Dylan on tour.

Ryan is responding the best to my question. Presumably course character and setup would  entice quality creative shots out of players who have to rely more on them for success and can deliver them? That's more about what I am asking.

Full disclosure: I am 58 and play to around a five so seeing a game theoretically more like my own has it's own attraction

[Chris DeToro]

I'd have to say either the tournament at North Shore, the tournament at Fox Chapel or wherever they're hosting the US Senior Open (I believe Oak Tree National next year).  I do like how the Champions Tour has made a move to some of the older courses that the regular tour has 'outgrown' to give us a chance to see them

[Jason Topp]

We have had an event in Minneapolis that I stopped attending when they went to a TPC around 15 years ago.  Before that, it was at my course which made it pretty interesting to watch and made clear that these guys are really good at what they do.

Now, Pebble Beach is the one event that seems attractive to me.  The kids and the venue seem to inject a special atmosphere.

[Terry Lavin]

The Senior Open is the only Champions Tour event worth attending, IMHO.

[Garland Bayley]

The Senior Open is the only Champions Tour event worth attending, IMHO.

And the British Senior Open. The others you have to pay me to attend.

[Steve Lang]

Depending on what they have planned this year, I would look at the Champions Tour event in the spring at The Woodlands in Houston.  For the last two years the tournament has included an exhibition scramble that has teamed Nicklaus, Palmer and Player together.  I think Trevino, Floyd, Miller and others of similar vintage also competed.  That event drew a big crowd.  

I have no idea if those guys want to do this again, and there is no question their golf is pretty creaky these days (although I'm pretty sure The Big 3 won the exhibition the first year).  That being said, I'd still rather watch them tee it up than most if not all of the Senior Tour regulars.  The event itself is one of the best the Champions Tour has to offer.  Some good golf down there for you to play as well.

Greg, you better call if you come down from the big d in 2014...  

Ward, if there's no one from this lineup you want to watch golf their ball around, then perhaps the lpga for you?  

http://www.insperitychampionship.com/uploads/2013/05/Sunday%20Pairings-c.pdf

the old guys exhibition was great last year and they still hit the ball well, with "that sound" of compression, even the really old guys .. very inspiring, and very much better than any 5 hcp I know...

[ward peyronnin]

Steve

Kissing the pasts ass is another topic.

I am asking what venue brings out the best shotmaking in guys that can still get past 60 degrees turn but aren't as flexible as the young guys who power it out there and allows one to process at a reasonable proximity.

I guess your not interested in measuring the true value of women or whatever your pompous quote says cause i do enjoy watching women play occasionally tho apparently you don't consider it worthwhile.

I appreciate people answering but very few are addressing my question in the spirit in which it was asked

[Steve Lang]

  Ward,  

Au contraire dude... why the spitting venom?    

When the LPGA played the Samsung tourney at The Woodlands TPC back in 2003 with their top 20, we worked the tourney as volunteers, and it was a highlight of the year watching the ladies up close.   Some of them like Se Ri, Annika, and Sophie bombed drives over the first hole par 5 dogleg corner, most did not, from tees between the tips and first in blues..     Beth, Julie, Meg, Grace, & most showed a lot of professional golfing around the place, setting things up, etc. and were a joy to watch for several days, just like the new old guys, and real old guys.

The girls tore up the place, some got it very well, some didn't.  
http://scores.golfweek.com/scores.asp?Action=Tournament&TournamentID=2477

2014 Insperity will be second year with our new greens.  Never been better since 1985 when pros first played the course!

So how many folks have seen every Champions tour venue?  Seems under Mucci "green" rules, they're the only ones that can answer your question!   Here's link to course map, maybe others can paste in others...

http://www.insperitychampionship.com/spectators/course-map/

[Garland Bayley]

Ward,

When you say the champions tour produces more shot making, do you mean working the ball to suit the demands of the shot? If so, I doubt you will find it. When I attended, I specifically stood behind the players to see ball movement, and found none.

Michelle Wie and Anna Norquist by themselves produce more shot making than the whole champions tour combined in my experience.

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