[Josh Tarble]

Greg,
I don't think so at all.  I started this thread because I knew it would be fairly close...and I didn't really sit down and compare in detail.  Crystal Downs was so far above and beyond what I had been able to play to that point it's amazing.  If I play 10 courses that are better in my lifetime, I will have led a great golf playing career.  

The next day I was able to play Kingsley for the first time and was completely blown away.  I don't think Kingsley is as audacious as Crystal (and that's saying a lot), but Kingsley is incredibly wild and fun and really good golf.  After playing Crystal I was worried that Kingsley wouldn't live up to the hype - and there are a lot of Kingsley hype men on here - or be able to compare.  But came away realizing a few things 1) Kingsley and Crystal are incredibly similar while both being vastly different 2) Both are incredibly good 3) If you could play either one every day, you'd be a lucky golfer

At the start of the thread I truly meant that this wasn't to disparage either course, but more-so to point out how good both of them are and how similar they are.  It's just a lot more fun to have a match then to type up 18 holes of comparisons.

[Jason Thurman]

Greg,

For arguments sake let's say CD is a Doak 10 and Kingsley is an 8.  How much of a trouncing do you think it should be?  Tom probably had the match over on the 13th tee and many here have it much closer.  Taking out both homer biases the reality is probably somewhere in between.

P.S. Vegas has the over under on Kingsley in the new CG at 7, and the line may move to 6.5 when the big money gets involved...

I'd be too worried about a push at 7. 6.5 makes it more interesting.

Jud, how do you rate Kingsley vs. Lawsonia? I suspect you and I both agree that Lawsonia was underrated in the first Confidential Guide. Is Kingsley a quantum step above? A quantum step below? Roughly its equal? I have a hard time deciding. I suspect if Lawsonia is a 6 then so is Kingsley, but personally I would probably rate both as 7s.

[Greg Taylor]

Well, not played The Kingsley so I gotta watch where I tread. But next time I am in Northern Michigan I'll be treading The Kingsley's fairways for sure - post CD and pre Arcadia!

However that all being said, strokeplay, over four rounds, CD wins convincingly... match play over 18 is a crap shoot!

Said the man who hasn't played one of courses under discussion... [cough, splutter]...!

[Jud_T]

Jason,

That's an interesting question.  I guess personally I have Lawsonia as a 7 and Kingsley as an 8.  The real caveat for Kingsley is the turf quality.  It's arguably the best links turf in this country which makes playing the course repeatedly a blast and kicks the course into overdrive.  As I mentioned, image the Downs with Kingsley's maintenance meld, if that were even possible.  It would probably be the best 17 hole course on the planet...

This sounds pretty on point re-Kingsley:

8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

also is it clear to everyone that CD meets this criteria?:

9. An outstanding course—certainly one of the best in the world—with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.

[Josh Tarble]

I would say 7.5 sounds about right for Kingsley.  And certainly 9 sounds good for Crystal.  However, I was under the impression it was a 10.

Although 17 is maybe not the world beater some claim it to be, I don't see much of an issue with it.  It's only 311 yards from the tips...if it was say 380, I could see the issue, but the fact is it's still only 2 7 irons at most.  

[Jud_T]

Josh,

It is a 10 in CG.  I'm just playing devil's advocate, but based on his own criteria, the greens are too fast and the playing corridors too narrow in spots vis-a-vis the original design intent and most would agree that there's at least 1 weak hole...

[Greg Taylor]

I would say 7.5 sounds about right for Kingsley.  And certainly 9 sounds good for Crystal.  However, I was under the impression it was a 10.

Although 17 is maybe not the world beater some claim it to be, I don't see much of an issue with it.  It's only 311 yards from the tips...if it was say 380, I could see the issue, but the fact is it's still only 2 7 irons at most.  

Too tricked up and not in keeping with the rest of course... I agree with you.

As much as I love CD it's not a 10, it's no CPC. Not in my opinion anyway.

[Josh Tarble]

Crystal Downs #16 - 588 yards - Par 5
The 16th at the Downs is a true brute of a hole...at nearly 600 yards this is going to play as a lengthy 3 shotter for even the longest of hitters.  The look off the tee is a good one, wide open and encouraging for the monster drive you need to hit here.  I thought it was an interesting use of scale again, because it looks like you should be able to cut a bit off the corner, but in reality that fairway starts turning about 290 yards off the tee.  The second shot here was really one of the only mundane shots on the course in my opinion.  It actually is a blind shot off an upslope, so hitting a long iron or wood is not a simple task.  I couldn't discern an optimal side to really lay up to, and middle of the fairway seemed to be pretty adequate.  The green is fantastic, with a lot of tilt and well bunkered.  An interesting feature is the dip in the fairway right off the front edge...I can imagine that is not a good place to be and certainly adds something to contend with on the approach.  Like every other hole on the course, below the hole is ideal and there are a lot of subtleties to the green.  I played 3 excellent shots, only to be faced with a 10 foot slider and was fortunate to walk away with par.  A hole that, in my opinion, would probably grow and reveal a few secrets the more you played, but on the surface seemed like a straightforward beast that calls for proper execution.

View from the tee, with the green nowhere in site


The approach shot to the heavily tilted and heavily bunkered green


Kingsley Club #16 - 225 yards - Par 3
A wonderful par 3, where options abound.  Play it off the hill high and right, directly at the pin or a low, running straight on shot.  This was great fun to play into the wind, down wind, from the tips, from short...everywhere.  The bunker left is very imposing, gathering a lot of balls that carry too much steam off the hillside.  The really fearsome place to miss however, is the depression short left.  This gathers a ton of missed shots and is a really difficult up and down.  The green itself is one of the flatter ones on the course, but a ton of subtle contours help keep the ball out of the hole.  All in all a really fun par 3 and my favorite on the course.

Also, forgot to mention of nice looking this hole is from the tee - just really well done


Even though #16 at Crystal Downs is really good, and a nice change up from the previous few holes in that it has a nice open feeling, I really loved the 16th at Kingsley.  I thought it was the most dynamic par 3 of a group of really good ones.  As a set I feel the 3s at Kingsley are better than the pieces individually, but 16 stands on it's own as an excellent hole.  Kingsley Club takes this one - Crystal Downs 1 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#9 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#10 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#11 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#12 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#13 (DRAW) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#14 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs 3 UP
#15 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs 2 UP
#16 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs 1 UP

[Steve Salmen]

By the definitions in the CG, I think a better comparison for Kingsley would be a match up vs. Wolf Run in Indiana.  Both are modern and have a large national membership.  

Wolf Run is a much sterner test but Kingsley is certainly no walkover.

Doing a back of envelope analysis, I have the two courses tied 9-9.

[Steve Salmen]

Question about the 15th hole:

Can you play a legitimate running shot from the fairway up to the green without the ball being thrown left or right off the fronting hill?

[Greg Taylor]

And the 17th to come... Josh, on which side of the fence are you going to fall...?!

This could get close.

[Jud_T]

Steve,

You can, but it'd better be precise.  I've gotten up and down from the trees on the right by doing just that, but it was an all-world shot.  

[Josh Tarble]

Question about the 15th hole:

Can you play a legitimate running shot from the fairway up to the green without the ball being thrown left or right off the fronting hill?

Steve, I meant to mention in my write up that it was the site of one of the greatest shots I've ever seen.  Jud had roughly 65 yards into the green and hit his patented Kingsley running 4 wood that bounced along the ground, up the front of the green, used the backstop and rolled to about 5 feet for a tap in par.  It was incredible.

[Steve Salmen]

Jud,

The only shot on the back nine that I do not care for is the approach to 15.  I think regardless of air or ground you have to be precise.  My fault with the hole is the combination elevated narrow green and length of the hole. Just too hard a second shot from 190-210 for me.

Steve

[Matthew Lloyd]

My only thought on #16 at Kingsley is you have to be careful not to rely TOO MUCH on the right hill.  It's true that there are a number of ways to approach this hole strategically but end up too high on the right and you're finished.  The hill only helps you to an extent.  Having said this, however, that's the strategy I usually take as going into the left bunker or worse yet the trees is even worse.

I also find that the pin placement makes a huge difference on this hole.  If the pin is tucked far back you can take at least one extra club and avoid the hill and front slope leading to the bunker altogether and just bomb it back there.

While I have more "fun" playing the make or break shots on #2 and #9 from the tee, I would probably rank this as the best par 3 at Kingsley.  

[Jud_T]

Jud,

The only shot on the back nine that I do not care for is the approach to 15.  I think regardless of air or ground you have to be precise.  My fault with the hole is the combination elevated narrow green and length of the hole. Just too hard a second shot from 190-210 for me.

Steve

I guess the point is who says you're entitled to be on in reg just cause it says 4 on the card?

[Tim Bert]

Josh - The depression short left on 16 is probably my favorite chip or pitch on the entire course.  Perhaps because I have practices it so much, I have a much higher up and down success rate to a red pin from there than a bogey golfer should have from such a spot.  I'd guess I had that shot easily 8 to 10 times this year with an up and down rate of at least 75%. I took a friend up there for a long weekend and probably made 4 pars from that spot that weekend alone. It is a no brainer, run it up the hill and bring it back down to the pin shot. The only difficulty is if one tries to get too cute and putt or chip it up to the hole and stop it without running way past.

16 is my favorite par 3 on the course and I love it from the golds, blues, whites, and reds.

[Bill Seitz]

Jud,

The only shot on the back nine that I do not care for is the approach to 15.  I think regardless of air or ground you have to be precise.  My fault with the hole is the combination elevated narrow green and length of the hole. Just too hard a second shot from 190-210 for me.

Steve

It's a really hard shot for everyone, even from 150-160. But you're coming off of a hole where par was essentially gift wrapped, and where you're probably disappointed with a five most of the time. That's why I saw 14 and 15 are a par nine. You can't really evaluate those holes in isolation.

[Jud_T]

16 might be the clearest victory of the match for Kingsley.  Just a great hole.  Using the hill off the tee, out of the bunker or from short or short left is great fun and a shot one never tires of.  There's not many more satisfying shots in golf than hitting into the sweet spot of the hill, watching your ball disappear, only to see it reappear funneling toward the flag.

CD 1 Up

[Josh Tarble]

My only thought on #16 at Kingsley is you have to be careful not to rely TOO MUCH on the right hill.  It's true that there are a number of ways to approach this hole strategically but end up too high on the right and you're finished.  The hill only helps you to an extent.  Having said this, however, that's the strategy I usually take as going into the left bunker or worse yet the trees is even worse.

I also find that the pin placement makes a huge difference on this hole.  If the pin is tucked far back you can take at least one extra club and avoid the hill and front slope leading to the bunker altogether and just bomb it back there.

While I have more "fun" playing the make or break shots on #2 and #9 from the tee, I would probably rank this as the best par 3 at Kingsley.  

Matthew,
That's a great point...but also one that I think makes the hole better.  You can't just throw a shot up on the right and hope it gets close.  You really have to play a precise shot whether you play it off the hill or play it at the pin.  There are definitely multiple options but none are necessarily easier than the other.


Tim,
That's really surprising to me.  I guess the couple shots I saw from down there were trying to get it close or make it because of the match at that point but I can't think of a single one that got up and down.  I'm pretty sure the only up and down I saw from left was from the bunker - shows you that even 5 plays isn't enough to really evaluate every nook and cranny of a course.

[Mike Hendren]

A question for the Kingsley regulars:  How effectively can the right side fairway cut be utilized to access the pin on the 16th?  In my two rounds there a few years back it seemed that such shots wound up in the left hand fringe or bunker.

As with most redan's these days, isn't it just better to have a go right at the green, ideally with a cut?

Bogey

[Jason Thurman]

Getting caught up:

Rounds 15 and 16

The 15th and 16th might as well be judged in conjunction. Both courses feature two holes that occupy roughly the same corridor. Both courses feature one very tough hole on this stretch as well as one shorter hole that appears easier than it really is. And I find that one course really dominates this stretch.

15th and 16th at Crystal Downs show a noticeable restraint after the previous stretch of holes. Remember that when you arrive at this tee, you've just played 6 holes that really confront their terrain head-on. You've played dramatically uphill holes, then dramatically downhill, then preposterous green slopes, then hanging lies and runaway approaches and blind shots, finally arriving at the course's peak looking over Lake Michigan. The 15th and 16th with their gently rolling fairways give the possibility of a flat lie and feel more conventional than anything a player has seen since the 3rd hole. This exemplifies the beautiful balance of Crystal Downs, and the journey its routing presents. To revisit an earlier theme, these two holes begin to reassemble the golfer's paradigm of what a golf course is, after holes 4 through 9 broke that paradigm down with their one-of-a-kind holes. While 15 and 16 lack the memorability of some other holes on the course, they serve a critical role in assembling the whole.

15 and 16 at Kingsley take a markedly different route. 15 might be the simplest hole on the course, despite also being the most difficult relative to par. It feels like it has a strategy off the tee, but does it really matter? Won't 95% of approach shots hit by the people who play the course end up in roughly the same spot? If the answer is "Yes," and I believe it is, then the hole might be the greatest equalizer of any "1 handicap" hole that I've played. The question for me is whether that makes it a great hole, a good hole, or a bad one. Meanwhile, 16 poses a lesson on golf course architecture for everyone from the novice to the advanced studier of the craft. The player whose home course was designed by Andy North (i.e., full of straightforward shots) will immediately see that this hole gives the option of aiming away from the flag. If he hits the sweet spot and gets the rush of seeing his ball run to the flag, perhaps his whole notion of what golf can be will change. Meanwhile, for the GCA nerds at this year's Mashie, many of us were TOO tempted by the hillside right. I saw shots that landed halfway up the hillside, doomed immediately to find a resting place far below the green on the left. I saw shots that so wanted to use the kickplate that they wound up way too high and past 17's tee on the other side of the hill. The rare player who aimed 10 feet right of the flag had a safety net for a push or pull. But the player TOO eager to use the perceived safety of the giant sideboard was penalized just as much as the player who tried a stock 6 iron to the center of the green. What an unusual and wonderful approach to golf architecture.

Kingsley wins these two rounds in a combined score of 20 - 17. I'm not sure it actually has a better stretch than Crystal here, but it throws the bigger punches and this highly corrupt judge was a sucker for it.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7
8th round: CD wins 10 - 9
9th round: KC wins 10 - 8
10th round: KC wins 10 - 9
11th round: CD wins 10 - 9
12th round: CD wins 10 - 9
13th round: KC wins 10 - 8
14th round:  CD wins 10 - 8
15th/16th round: KC wins 20 - 17

Running Total: CD 150, KC 147

[Josh Tarble]

Hole #17...this should be interesting.

Kingsley Club #17 - 544 yards - Par 5
I think I've called a few holes rollercoasters to this point...well this hole could very well be the Millennium Force of Kingsley.  With the left side of the fairway now abandoned, I would actually call this one of the tighter tee balls at KC.  I do think that is fair though, with the advantaged gained by a tee ball carrying the hill.  If you are able to carry the hill, you are granted an ENORMOUS advantage.  I think I hit 2 or 3 400 yard drives off this tee and had 8 or 9 iron into the green multiple times.  As many of the other holes at KC, 17 is defended at the green.  I would say it may be one of the most difficult greens to putt on as well.  In no way are you guaranteed a 2 or even 3 putt - and to a font pin, I could easily see someone putting off the green to about 75 yards down the fairway.  The approach into the green has a lot of interest, needing to gauge the wind, the elevation change and navigating several bunkers and a pretty steep drop off right.  Not to mention the severe green itself - however the main feature of the hole is the giant hill itself.  This is not unlike #14, in that it's extremely fun...probably one of the most fun shots I've ever played.  But I don't think that necessarily makes the hole good.  On the tee ball you either make it or you don't.  And because there is such a HUGE advantage to making the carry, it disproportionately favors the big hitters.  

I think this is probably another hole that works better as a role player in the group rather than a stand alone piece.  I look at this hole as the opposite of #7, in that 7 completely negates any advantage of the bigger hitter, in fact tempts them to hit into trouble.  Where as #17 rewards the big hitter and screws the guy that can't make the carry.  They work together, but individually they can't quite stand on their own.

Can you make the carry?  That's the only question to be answered here.


Top of the ski slope...it's probably 80-100 feet down to the fairway from here


Looking back from behind the green gives you a look at the extreme terrain this hole is built upon


Crystal Downs #17 - 311 yards - Par 4
I'm not quite sure what I can write that hasn't already been said.  This is 311 diabolical yards and once you get to the green the job isn't done.  For my game, the only play is to hit driver and hope I hit it straight, which I fortunately did.  That left a straightforward pitch up the hill which I proceeded to chunk (that's a reoccurring theme unfortunately) and finally get home with a 5.  Without hitting driver, for me I think I would have played 8 iron - 8 iron, which still didn't seem too safe, but easily do able.  I get that it's an extreme hole without much margin for error, but it's still only 311 yards from the tips.  I think it's ok to ask a player to potentially have to hit a 6 iron off the tee and an 8 iron from a weird stance.   I also can't imagine how hard this hole must have been before irrigation.  I don't see how a ball would stay in play if the fairways were running fast.

But all that is not what I was thinking on the tee.  For some reason, because of the tunneling effect of the trees, and the view to lake Michigan, I just thought it was one of the coolest views I'd ever been fortunate to have on a course.  It's like you have tunnel vision on the green, but are still somehow able to take everything else in with it.  Just really cool.  And then you snap back and ask yourself "how the hell am I ever going to my ball in the hole here?"

I'd call this the iconic image of Crystal Downs


One more zoomed in for good measure


I really don't know how to judge this one.  Both holes are completely different and unlike anything I've ever seen.  I would call them fairly one-dimensional, in that you either execute the shots or you don't and both probably favor a big hitter.  I think I like Crystal's #17 a bit better, in that it is a hole that really makes you think from the tee and makes you commit to your decision.   Kingsley is more of just swing away and hope you hit it long and straight.  But Kingsley #17 is one of the funnest hole's I've ever played.  Seeing the ball hang in the air that long (especially for me) is something I don't see very often.  Plus, who doesn't like hitting 380 yard drives.  However, I'm going to have another cop out and call this a draw, so the match continues to the 18th.  I didn't want to have any draws on the card, but now I have two.  I think it's only fair for two of my favorite courses ever to take the match to the 18th.  DRAW - Crystal Downs 1 UP

[Josh Tarble]

Bogey,
I think Brian Finn and I had that exact conversation when we played.  I don't see much point in using the slope if you're confident in striping one right at the flag.  

But Jason summed up the hole perfectly.  The best play is 10 yards right of the flag, using the slope as a buffer.  The hillside tempts you into playing it off the hill but most likely you'll end up in the bunker unless the perfect shot is played.

[Jud_T]

Josh,

I disagree a bit with your analysis of KC 17.  For guys like me, who only barely carry the hill from the Whites, it's not a do or die proposition.  If I'm at the base of the hill with 170 up a steep hill, I don't really have the ball flight for that shot (i.e. I don't hit a high 6-iron 200!).  It's probably an extra 2 clubs for the steepness of the hill.  So I'm equally as good hitting a layup from the top of the hill with a rescue as I am with a 9 iron from down below.  The coolest thing about 17 at CD in my limited experience, aside from the critical par I made in our match, is the fact that the tee is lined up with a distant vista visually that our host pointed out.  As I mentioned this hole may be similar to #7 at KC in that it's an awkward tee shot for anyone who hasn't played the hole numerous times.  The difference is that KC 7 is only really awkward for the big hitter or guys not playing the right tee, while this hole seems awkward for everyone.  One thing I will say about both courses, is these type of holes are almost inevitable in routings that take on such severe properties, and thank god they both did.  Kingsley also gets brownie points as being a built in gym- my son goes out from the cabins early to run up and down the big hill to train for crew...Hole goes to Kingsley as the lesser of two evils.

All square

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