The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event

[Jason Thurman]

Round 14

In this round, we reach the farthest point from the clubhouse in each of the respective back nines being chronicled. The 14th is a classic pound-for-pound matchup between the delicate par 3 at Crystal Downs and the rambunctious par 5 at Kingsley.

The 14th at Crystal Downs might be the most photographed hole on the course. This fact doesn’t surprise anyone who has been there, as it features one of golf’s great views. However, the surprising part is that it isn’t the great views that get photographed. Regardless of the search engine used, I can’t find one good shot of the view looking over from the back of the green down to Lake Michigan and Sleeping Bear Dunes. The fact that people are so busy taking photos OF the green as opposed to photos FROM the green says a lot about the simple, elegant, and just plain beautiful aesthetics of the hole itself. It seems to float in its own world, separate from reality, just a simple skyline with a magnificent surprise waiting beyond its crest. I don’t think it’s the best hole at Crystal Downs, but it’s almost certainly the best moment.

If 14 at Crystal goes to the head with its skyline green, 14 at Kingsley works the body as it descends gently down into a bit of a valley from the tee. With its turbo-boost tee shot, it’s a blast to play. I can’t help wondering, though, if it’s a bit TOO much fun. After all, it probably only takes about a 200 yard carry from the blue tees to hit the speed slot. Meanwhile, as Josh implied, the carry from the back tees is probably too much for even most very strong players to reach it. While watching a ball fly over the right side hill is a lot of fun, I just think the risk/reward balance is a bit out of whack here. This hole gets a ton of points for pure joy, but can we really call it a great hole if it provides that joy with so little trepidation?

My answer is no. I consider 14 at Kingsley a very good hole and one that I look forward to playing, but with a little bit less suspense than, say, the 1st hole where a well-struck ball sailing toward the bunker complex is watched more anxiously. Such suspense is rare in a par 3, but exhibited in spades at the 14th at Crystal. The fronting bunkers add suspense to the tee shot. The slightly elevated green hides the location of many good tee shots until the player crests the hill. And the view from the green is one anxiously desired as the player strolls off the tee box. It’s truly one of the great moments in golf.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7
8th round: CD wins 10 - 9
9th round: KC wins 10 - 8
10th round: KC wins 10 - 9
11th round: CD wins 10 - 9
12th round: CD wins 10 - 9
13th round: KC wins 10 - 8
14th round:  CD wins 10 - 8

Running Total: CD 133, KC 127

[Jud_T]

Jason,

Would you feel differently about KC 14 if it were a 4 on the card?  As Bill mentioned it's difficult to look at in isolation when the scoring average for the hole is virtually the same as #15, which is a 4 on the card.  The speed slot is not THAT easy to hit.  A few feet too far right and you're hacking out of the native and further right is a pitch out or a lost ball.  Too far left and you miss the slot and are laying up.  Additionally it's a fantastic green with the backstop, several tiers and the steep bank on the left.  One can run the ball up the right side, fly it to the backstop and flirt with the bunkers to a back pin or spin one off the slope in the green to a front pin.  One of the better greens on the course IMO.  I think the hole gets underrated simply because it's a relatively easy par for a good player or bogey for everyone else.  The way to look at it as Bill mentioned is you really need to make a birdie here as you're likely to make a 5 or worse on the next hole.  Furthermore, if you want to turn it into a real 3-shotter, simply tip it out.  Then the layup becomes interesting;  the best angle is to come into the green from the left side, but that brings OB left into play, while bailing out right brings the bunker into play.

[Josh Tarble]

Jud,
I know you asked Jason this question...but I personally would not feel any different if it were a 4.  It's not that you are getting too close to the green.  It's that there is no decision in going for the shot.  There would be no point ever (maybe from the way back tees into the wind...maybe) that I would not go for the speed slot.  I mean, what is that carry?  150 yards?  Even from the back tee it can't be a lot more than 220 yards and the advantage from getting the speed slot to not has to be close to 200 yards.   Maybe even more.

Edit:  I just measured via Google Maps (obviously not an exact measurement) but from the Blue Tees it's roughly a 160 yard carry.  From the normal Gold Tees is roughly 200 yards and from the WAY back Gold Tees its about 230.  No chance I'd ever think about not carrying it.  Even if it's close.    

Hopefully there is a next time I make it up there and I will try it from the way back.  See if I feel any differently.

[Jud_T]

160 seems too short to me, just based on experience I'd have thought it's 200 from the blue.  The other point is if you do catch the speed slot, you're not coming into the green from the proper side so you really have to be precise with your approach or you'll end up either in the greenside bunkers, down the hill to the left with a tricky up and down or worse.  Josh, what was your scoring average on the hole?

[Bill Seitz]

Josh, even if there's just a touch of breeze in your face, you can still carry the bunkers from the way back tees.  I can carry those bunkers from back there, and if I can do it, you can definitely do it.  It's not really a huge advantage though, because it's still a long way into the green, and you're left with a bit of an awkward lie.  You can probably catch that first slot though that leaves you with a reachable second.  It's just a tougher proposition, because a 250 or so shot with the OB left and junk right is quite a bit scarier than than the same shot from 190.  

Jud, I think he's measuring that to the shortest possible carry.  It's not really a good point to use, though, because if you extend out on that line, you're in the rough.  You really need to aim left of that point, so that your target is the inside (right) edge of the left bunker, where the carry is closer to 180 from the blue tees.  

[Jason Thurman]

Jud, I agree with Josh. I might feel different from the back tees. But from the blue tees, it wasn't even a second thought for me to go for the speed slot and I was hitting the ball worse at the Mashie than I have all year.

Now, part of that is no doubt due to my own game. I don't worry about missing right generally. I'm not going to lose one right of target on that shot. I'll frequently hook one left, but that's no big deal and depending on how badly I hook it I might still be able to reach in two, albeit with a much longer club. I can see how a shorter hitter than I might have more to think about, but I can only judge the course as I play it, and I find it to be a fun but low-risk tee shot. As for having a bad angle, I can't think of a green in the world that is easier to hold with a 3w than a 7i when the difference in approach angle is less than 45 degrees.

It's not a bad hole by any stretch, but I don't think there's any decision to make. It's not so much that the tee shot is even too easy. Hitting the speed slot does require a good, straight shot. But it doesn't require a particularly well hit one and there's a ton of room to miss left, so there's very little trepidation. I'd compare it with some of the better par 5s at The Trophy Club. The second hole there presents about three different options off the tee - safe play left, bolder play closer to the creek, or aggressive play over the creek to the right fairway. The 9th hole is similar with its use of centerline hazards to create bold routes and conservative ones. I only see one real route to the 14th at Kingsley. Play over the mound right and favor a miss left. And while there's something nice about having a low stakes shot after a few tough holes and before another tough hole, it's ultimately not that interesting in a vacuum. It's safe/reward instead of risk/reward, and I just find the latter more interesting.

[Jud_T]

I think all we've discovered is that you guys need to play the way back tee on 14.  For me, the blue tee is the perfect risk/reward proposition.

[Josh Tarble]

Bill, that's probably correct.  I think from the blue I was catching the second tier of the slot and a hanging lie 5 wood with OB left would not be an ideal shot for me.  That would definitely make the lay up a bit more interesting as well.

I was measuring it from tee to the closest faiirway, so probably not the ideal spot, but still, it's short enough I can't see anyone not trying it.

The other point is if you do catch the speed slot, you're not coming into the green from the proper side so you really have to be precise with your approach or you'll end up either in the greenside bunkers, down the hill to the left with a tricky up and down or worse.  

I think I disagree with you here, Jud.  I found that my ball was typically kicked down and to the left or left center of the fairway.

I was probably a little above a 5 for my five plays.  I believe I had 1 birdie, 3 pars and a double.  It's not necessarily about the easyness or toughness of the hole.  Just like every other hole there at Kingsley, they are defended around the green and this is another great complex.  But the tee shot is a bit like #17 for me.  You either make it or you don't.  There really isn't another option.  

[Josh Tarble]

I think all we've discovered is that you guys need to play the way back tee on 14.  For me, the blue tee is the perfect risk/reward proposition.

Do you ever play it by not trying to carry the bunker?  

[Bill Seitz]

It's not so much that the tee shot is even too easy. Hitting the speed slot does require a good, straight shot. But it doesn't require a particularly well hit one and there's a ton of room to miss left, so there's very little trepidation.

You have to carry it at least 245-250, on a pretty narrow angle to actually catch the part of the fairway that will kick you forward.  That's a pretty well hit shot for me.  I think the difficulty on 14 is that, while it's a really easy hole if you play it safe, you're almost never going to play it safe after a good drive, and there's a lot of trouble around that green.  It's the only hole on the course where OB is really an issue, and it cuts in tight enough to get into your head when your standing there with a hybrid or long iron.  And if you miss right, even if you end up in a decent position, it's a really difficult up and down (left is no picnic either, but it's an easier shot with a lot more options).  

But again, this is evaluating the hole relative to the par on the card, which I think is a bit of a fool's errand for this corner of the golf course.

[Jud_T]

I think all we've discovered is that you guys need to play the way back tee on 14.  For me, the blue tee is the perfect risk/reward proposition.

Do you ever play it by not trying to carry the bunker?  

Yes.  For me I'll err more towards the left from the Blues or Golds as even if I do catch the speed slot I'm usually laying up.  Another hole where unless you've got a mid-iron in your hand, I doubt going for the green will result in the lowest scoring average over time.  That's a pretty hard target to hit and hold from the right side with a rescue or a long iron.  I also love the bump and run shot to that green from inside 100 yards.

[Jud_T]

 For me, it would handily beat the 17th hole at Kingsley, if my match wasn't already long over by then.  Or the 13th.

Ding Ding.  We have a clear winner for most ridiculous homer statement...  

[Josh Tarble]

I think all we've discovered is that you guys need to play the way back tee on 14.  For me, the blue tee is the perfect risk/reward proposition.

Do you ever play it by not trying to carry the bunker?  

Yes.  For me I'll err more towards the left from the Blues or Golds as even if I do catch the speed slot I'm usually laying up.  Another hole where unless you've got a mid-iron in your hand, I doubt going for the green will result in the lowest scoring average over time.  That's a pretty hard target to hit and hold from the right side with a rescue or a long iron.  I also love the bump and run shot to that green from inside 100 yards.

That makes sense...I would have been surprised if you ever laid up from blues and in.  Even over the left bunker it's not an outrageous carry though, probably less likely to have a really bad stance in the fairway though.

[Tim Bert]

Josh - For another small hitters perspective, I always aim to carry the bunkers from the blue tee but if I don't hit it squarely I don't make the carry.  I really think big hitters should be playing the golds almost all the time all around the course unless you just want a bunch of wedge approaches.   The blues are the perfect risk reward distance for me. Golds I have I bail left and the drive becomes extremely difficult.

I found your lost ball comment surprising because there are many lost ball opportunities at Kingsley (left 6, left 7, right 12, right 18 to name a few) but I have rarely seen a lost ball on 14 from any skill level. The right side is some of the thinnest rough on the course and even when in the trees on the right side we find some balls rather easily.

Despite my lack of distance or skill this hole routinely plays amongst the easiest to par and I would bet I have more birdies here than any other on the course. I also have fewer blowups.

I agree with others that 14 and 15 in isolation often seem too easy or to hard but they are an enjoyable combo that perform better in a two hole combined match than they do in an individual hole match.

[Matthew Lloyd]

It's been really interesting to read about the varying approaches to #14 at KC.  I tend to agree with those that feel going for the green in two is much trickier than it would be appear to be.  Now, I may be saying that because I'm not a long enough hitter to get there in two. But in some ways I feel like laying up by the stakes -- or even 20-30 yards further away than that -- can lead to more consistently good scores.  I play with several very long hitters at Kingsley and they are invariably ending up OB or in the right shit after getting too aggressive.  I think the degree of difficulty on the second shot is really underestimated.  It's generally not a flat lie, and I've seen so many shots hook over the stone wall and go down by the green. So in this way, I feel like it is a great risk/reward hole because being gutless on this hole can lead to a lot of tap-in pars.

[Josh Tarble]

Tim, thanks for your response on how you play it.  I do wish I would have tried the golds on #14, that was the only hole I didn't.  I probably would have faced more of what you are talking about on 14 with that carry.  Although, the way the turf was running when I was up there, even from the golds I still had a lot of wedges, but that's neither here nor there.

My comment on lost balls was actually to the left.  On three different occasions someone in my group hit what we thought was just a bit of a pulled drive, only to never be found again.  I don't disagree with you that a lost ball on an awful shot is probably more common other places, these were just drives that none of us thought were overly bad.  The only place on the course I found it was easy to lose a decently hit ball.

[Tim Bert]

Oh I get it on the left. The "strong" players I have seen on the course always aim so far right that losing a ball left isn't even an option given the breadth of the fairway and the fact that they are trying to cut the corner right. So I never even thought of that. I would guess that would usually be more a result of a bad line from someone unfamiliar with the course than a mishit but I get where you are coming from.

If you have so many wedges from the golds then you need to join the Kingsley bandwagon and play hickories or else stop using woods and hybrids!  The game is too easy for you. It has been interesting to read perspectives from guys like you and Bart that blast the ball because you play a game on my home course with which I am completely unfamiliar!

[Howard Riefs]

A few photos to add to the discussion:


Tee shot (via KC)



Over bunker, right side (via KC)



Center of fairway



“Matt Schmidt angle” from OB rock wall on left



Right of green

[Mac Plumart]

Hole 1...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 2...Kingsley 10-7 (one of the best par 3's in the world, IMO.  And 2 at The Downs didn't do it for me)
Hole 3...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 4...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 5...Crystal 10-9
Hole 6...Crystal 10-8
Hole 7...Crystal 10-8
Hole 8...Crystal 10-8
Hole 9...Kingsley 10-9 (I thought 9 at Kingsley was a truly great member's course par 3)

At the turn...

Kingsley 83; Crystal 83.  BOOM!!!

Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Kingsley 10-6 (green speed and contours don't match at all at Crystal)
Hole 12...Crystal 10-9 (I really like 12 at Crystal...soothing, interesting, and enjoyable)
Hole 13...Kingsley 10-9 (13 at Kingsley is another great members course hole.  13 at The Downs is a good hole as well.)
Hole 14...Crystal 10-9

Running update...through 14...Kingsley 131; Crystal 128.

[Josh Tarble]

Tim, never make the mistake of me saying I have a bunch of wedges as it being too easy!    In fact that makes it all the more embarrassing stumbling home with a bunch of bogeys.    Just ask Howard how that works out for me!

[Jud_T]

The flip side of the F&F turf that we all crave is while it makes the game a ton of fun it shortens the course significantly.  While that's a great thing for Tim and I, maybe it's not ideal for guys like Josh who's usual 280 drive becomes 340 at Kingsley.  Of course that means you really better hit it straight or leave the big dog in the bag.  You're gonna have to come up for hard course day next year and we'll order up a 3 club wind!  Now I know how that kid threw up a 63 a couple years ago.  He simply overpowered the course and had his short irons dialed in.

[Mike Hendren]

Really torn on choosing between the two 14ths but I think the 14th at Kingsley might be the best hole on the property.  A little less thrilling perhaps, but I really like the long graceful arc of the fairway turn making line and distance relevant from the tee,  the risk / reward from the tee when played from the appropriate markers, the extent to which the fairway narrows, thereby a choice as to whether to lay back or give it a go on the second.  Finally, lots of fun to run a low pitch into the green, hoping to finish on the right level.  Plus, I am fond of holes that 1) emerge from a tree-lined corridor into an open meadow; and 2) play into the corner of the course property.   Finally, a rare case where flowers enhance the architecture.

Grudgingly I give the nod to Kingsley after a really good run by Crystal Downs.

Bogey

[John Kirk]

Mike,

Our tastes seem to be converging, as we see this matchup very similar around the two courses.  We're the same age, you know.

I like Kingsley's 14th hole very much, big and gentle with a compelling walk into the green complex.  A beautiful stone wall defines the left edge of the property as one approaches.  The second shot is tricky; you don't want to go into those bunkers on the right side 100 or so yards from the green.

The 14th at Crystal Downs features a terrific skyline green and a view behind the green to die for, but it's a short iron to a simple green.  It's a pretty simple hole, by Crystal Downs' high standards.

[Bill Seitz]

My comment on lost balls was actually to the left.  On three different occasions someone in my group hit what we thought was just a bit of a pulled drive, only to never be found again.  I don't disagree with you that a lost ball on an awful shot is probably more common other places, these were just drives that none of us thought were overly bad.  The only place on the course I found it was easy to lose a decently hit ball.

I think this is an issue of small sample size.  I may have been with you in the group when this happened, and quite frankly, in all of my rounds at Kingsley, it's the only time I've ever seen a ball lost to the left.  If you play the hole three times and see a ball lost to the left, it probably looks like something that could be a routine occurrence.  When you've played the hole 50-75 times and you've seen it happen once, it's not something that's particularly worrisome.  It's a lot easier to lose a ball right off of that tee, and you need to really blow it right to do that.

As for having wedges in all day, the difference on a lot of holes at Kingsley between the blues and golds isn't so much the clubs you have in, but the clubs you have off the tee, at least with regard to par 4s.  I'll probably hit the same clubs into greens on 4, 6, 8, and 18, but if I'm playing the blue tees, I get to all of those spots with three wood.  If I do it from the golds, it's with driver, which makes execution of the tee shot more difficult.  

[Howard Riefs]

Tim, never make the mistake of me saying I have a bunch of wedges as it being too easy!    In fact that makes it all the more embarrassing stumbling home with a bunch of bogeys.    Just ask Howard how that works out for me!

I'm sure you played #18 better the 2nd, 3rd and 4th times.