[Bart Bradley]

Matthew

Just the opposite for me on both courses.

Number 12 at crystal is a beautiful bending hole.  So many great hole locations on an outstanding green.  12 at Kingsley is a fun tee shot that plays wider than it looks.  Having said that the right hillside is a death sentence and a total buzzkill if you have to walk up that slope looking for balls.  I think 12 green at Kingsley is very well done.  Bot honestly, I think Crystal just edges it out...

CD goes to 5 up and 8 points up.

Bart

[Chris DeToro]

Number 12 at Kingsley is honestly one of my favorite holes because it can be so penal.  I've always thought of this as a survival hole as you've got two birdie holes coming up right after number 12.  Nailing this tee shot is always a confidence booster going into this stretch.  I think the approach to 12 green is understated as well--the green is narrow and left makes a near impossible up and down  

I actually like the back nine of both courses more

[Jason Thurman]

Getting caught up here:

Round 10

I've been slow getting this one posted, mostly because I've been out of town for a day or two. But I've also had a hard time finding inspiration to write it. These are two of the less noteworthy holes on both courses in my mind. Crystal's has flash, and a deceptively awkward approach. Think of it as a stylish mollydooker but a bit of a one-trick pony. Kingsley's, meanwhile, is perhaps the most mundane hole on the course until you get to the green, which is tough bordering on ridiculous.

One of my favorite memories of the week I spent in Northern Michigan was uncorking my first drive at Kingsley. Probably my best swing all week, it came on the 10th tee, fresh off the driving range, after a few days of horrendous play. The 10th at Crystal Downs is the better hole in my mind, but in the spirit of boxing judgment, this biased judge is going the corrupt direction. It's a 10-9 round in favor of Kingsley.

Round 11

Two similar par 3s. Crystal Downs' 11th changes the whole vibe of the course and serves as a wonderful passage into the forested section of the property. Kingsley's 11th moves us toward the woods that its next several holes will play through as well. I find Crystal's 11th more attractive and a more significant moment within its routing. For all the complaints about its green severity, doesn't the 11th at Kingsley render the right third of its green mostly useless? Or perhaps I'm again biased by the nice pitch I hit to Crystal's 11th. Either way, I'm scoring this one 10-9 for Crystal Downs.

The 12th holes deserve their own post.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7
8th round: CD wins 10 - 9
9th round: KC wins 10 - 8
10th round: KC wins 10 - 9
11th round: CD wins 10 - 9

Running Total: CD 105, KC 100

[Jason Thurman]

Round 12

The 12th hole at Crystal Downs isn't much of a looker. The tee shot plays mostly blind with a lone tree serving as something of an aiming aid. It doglegs fairly hard to the right and the approach requires a long-ish iron to a green that runs away. For the first time, I walked off a hole at Crystal Downs thinking it fairly mundane.

The 12th at Kingsley is a stunner - a high elevated tee shot to a fairway cutting through the valley below. The green allows a bouncer from the left, but doesn't accommodate it as much as one would think while it falls off sharply right. It's a good long par 4 and a strong closer to what has been a bit of an uneven second third of the course.

By my third day at Kingsley though, I had started replaying the 12th at Crystal Downs in my mind. I don't think any hole has intrigued me as much after playing it. I started digging back through photo tours and trying to understand why it was lingering in my mind so much. As I replayed it in my head and confirmed my memories of what was on the ground via photo, I realized that I had missed out a bit while hacking around in the rough. I missed the genius of the long, running approach. I failed to use the visual indicators on the tee correctly. I walked off thinking it was an average hole. I drove back home from Michigan three days later thinking it might have been the best hole on the course, and I was sure of it after two days back at home with nothing but memories and photos. The truth might be somewhere in between, but I think it's closer to the latter than the former.

Crystal Downs wins the round.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7
8th round: CD wins 10 - 9
9th round: KC wins 10 - 8
10th round: KC wins 10 - 9
11th round: CD wins 10 - 9
12th round: CD wins 10 - 9

Running Total: CD 115, KC 109

[Steve Salmen]

After halving 3,4,10, and 11, KC has FINALLY won a full point from Crystal.

Not expecting invitations, just being honest with myself.

[Nick_Christopher]

Apologize for going back to 10, but want to catch up.

#10 at Kingsley is probably the most straight forward hole on the course.  The knob on the left can be a fun feature to get the ball close working it back on to the green.  The hole has changed a lot since the course opened with the clearing and addition of all of the bunkers.  When it is playing firm and fast, the bunkers in the landing area become much more dangerous.

#10 at CD is a stunning view, and it is fun to tee off next to the lunch counter.  The approach plays uphill to a very sloped green which can be putted off if not careful.  The interest added by the severe uphill approach and heavily contoured green give it a slight advantage.

Neither is incredibly strategic, but offer stern tests.

CD by a nose; 2up.

[Nick_Christopher]

#11 at CD is severe - and an example where the current speeds might get over the top.  However a fantastic up hill par 3 that really puts a premium on long irons (the other par 3s are relatively shortish).

#11 at TKC is a solid if not all-world hole.  It provides a good mix of options, and does have a cool false third on the right hand side.  Which comes into play when the pin is on the back shelf and you leak one a bit - leaving a tough recovery that has to get all the way back up.

CD 3up.

[Nick_Christopher]

#12 at CD has a cool feature near the elbow with a ripple that runs through the fairway.  The green is wholly unique on the golf course in that it runs away, presenting a unique challenge.  The shallow bunkering on the right is the only that I know of that is puttable, which may not be consistent with Maxwell's original intent, but makes for a fun option.  

#12 at KC is a dramatic hole and demands accuracy on a long approach.  The lack of any bunkering and naturalness of the setting is just awesome.  The drive is deceptive.  There is plenty of room to the left, but the tees orient the golfer to the hill-side on the right which makes for a tough set up.  This is one that is fun to play over and over.  

12 goes to Kingsley for me.

CD 2up

[Howard Riefs]

#12 is one of my favorite holes on the course – except when I pull (lefty…) one into the hillside on the right. Due to the hillside and the wall of trees to the left, the hole appears to be narrower from the elevated blue and gold tee box.  It’s really not.  Just knock a drive down into the fairway to position yourself for an approach.  There’s a speed slot on the right side of the fairway about 230 yards from the tee that will help propel a tee shot forward another 20+ yards.  

A long green has some great, if subtle, movement. While the hillside left of the green looks like an option to bounce the ball onto the green, its steepness is troublesome in keeping a ball on the green before it inevitably runs off to the right. The right side of the green is slightly below the green surface and a tricky location if you don’t read the uphill nature of the required chip or putt. There also a few sprinkler heads at the lower right area off the green that have proven troublesome on occasion. I wish they were across the green on the left side, though I’m sure there’s a logical reason they’re not. Pins in the back quarter or just on the front are the easier locations.


Video taken from 13 fairway
http://instagram.com/p/fX8rDMsm3C/


Another 340-yard bomb by Tarble at the Mashie



100 yards out



Looking back



Green from #13 blue tee

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps moreso than any hole no. the 13th's might reveal each individual's bias.

I'm really enjoying this thread.   Thanks for the participants' thoughful analyzes.

Bogey

[Josh Tarble]

Perhaps moreso than any hole no. the 13th's might reveal each individual's bias.

I'm really enjoying this thread.   Thanks for the participants' thoughful analyzes.

Bogey

On that note...on to the 13th.  If there were a trumpets blaring, opening of the heavens smiley face, this would be the place to use it.  The 13th on both courses might be my favorite of each course.  Both incredibly unique, albeit incredibly different and also very difficult.   Both just terrific golf holes.  I will try not to write too much about each one, but could probably go on for pages and pages.

Kingsley Club #13 - 292 yards - Par 4
The first night we were all at the River Camp during the Mashie, about 6 of us stayed up far past our bedtimes, imbibing in beverages and discussing the optimal way to play the hole.  I'm pretty sure over the course of 2 hours or so, about 8-10 different theories of play were suggested, and at no point did we a) shoot any theory down or b) definite a best way to play the hole.  

Standing on the tee you are faced with a really wide fairway and a tantalizingly close green.  The only thing standing between you and the hole appears to be a singular greenside bunker.  The green is probably the largest green on the course and also probably one of the boldest greens I've ever seen.  I wouldn't say it has any tilt, but basically is tiered downward from front to back.  It has, I would guess, 4 to 5 distinct tiers.  So many options abound from the tee, anything from a 7 or 8 iron to a driver.  My first play I thought I hit an ideal drive and would find myself putting for eagle, but because of the shaping of the green I found myself over the green in a back bunker.  Pretty sure I took an X (mainly because of poor play).  I also hit 6 iron off of the tee one day, hit a decent second shot and a relatively routine 2 putt for par.  Another day I smoked a driver just to left of the green and hit a miraculous chip that nearly dropped in.  Basically Jud puts it best when he says any score is truly possible, from a 2 to a 10.  

I think the ideal play I decided upon was hit driver right at the greenside bunker...best case scenario it receives some fortunate bounces and gets on the green but more realistically I hit a decent drive and it ends up in the bunker, hopefully leaving a relatively straightforward bunker shot and possible birdie.  The tiers on the green make anything longer than a 60 yards pitch very dicey to put anything close...unless you are Steve Stricker...and if you aren't on the proper level, a two putt is not a given.  

I also think a key, if you are laying up with an iron, is to choose a side and commit to the line.  If you aim for the center of the fairway you will be faced with a 60-90 yard pitch to a green sloping away, with a gaping bunker directly in your line from a very tight lie.  Not exactly the easiest shot to pull of consistently.  

I also saw Bill Seitz have success in aiming his drive towards the right side, with his ball trickling down towards the right, and faced with an uphill pitch that is fairly open.  However, Bill is what a gentleman at my club calls a BMW - the ultimate driving machine - and he can hit his spots with a driver with a high-level of confidence.  Right side is extremely risky because if you miss, it results in a lost ball at worst and an impossible shot from deep fescue off of a side hill lie.  

All in all just a masterful hole that doesn't favor a big hitter or a short hitter, makes you think about and execute your shots from pin position back to the tee and is fun to play over and over again.

View from the front tee box...from the back there is a big tree on the right side, but it should really come into play ever


The back of the green looking towards the tee - this shows the huge bowl back right and the front to back tiered nature of the green.  I also totally forgot about the little bunker on the right of the pic (left of the green) that little guy does complicate any pitch from the depression

[Josh Tarble]

Crystal Downs #13 - 442 yards - Par 4

The 13th at Crystal Downs....I'm actually not even sure what to say about this hole other than that it is incredible.  Sure, it doesn't have as many options as the 13th at Kingsley, but is surely a hole that makes you play from the pin back to the tee, confidently execute proper shots and keep steady nerves on the putting green.  A true par 4.5, a beast of hole, with stunning beauty.

There is a WAY back tee, through a shoot of trees that would make this hole an absolute monster.  I'm not sure why it's even there because I don't know who would want to play it.  It would make the hole more of a par 5.5!  But from the regular back tees you are again faced with a left to right canted and moving fairway, begging for a fade.  This is one of the rare holes that the slopes help push the ball into optimal position.  Though if the pin were on the right side I would think favoring left of the fairway would be ideal.  The driving zone features pretty severe slopes from left to right, so the ball will almost certainly be below your feet (for a right-hander).  The green itself is a work of art.  A severe ridge runs right through the middle, bisecting the green half way.  Anything on the opposite side of the green is no bueno.   It features a pretty decent sized false front and significant fall off right.  The back left pin position is obscured and guarded by the ridge ( which increases in size the further to the edge of the green it is) and a bunker and the right side is guarded by the slope and a couple of bunkers

We played to a back left pin and at first glance figured that must be one of the tougher pin positions, but really, anything on this green is a tough pin.  My shot missed ever so slightly left and I thought I was dead, but received a fortunate kick to be in fairway just off the green - leaving a relatively straightforward, albeit, delicate 2 putt for par!  

I can't say what the optimal play actually is, but for me, I would play it just as I did every time.  Driver straight, utilizing the fairway as a ground fade, pushing the ball to the right side.  The green calls for a draw, which is problematic because of the ball being below your feet.  And the key on the second shot is distance control.  If you are on the right side of the ridge, a two putt is obtainable.  Wrong side and you are probably looking at 5 at the best.  I could see many laying up short of the green side bunkers and trusting their wedge game to put them on the proper side of the green and hope to make a putt for par or two putting for bogey.  

One thing I'd like to point out here, is that the green speeds at Crystal, although high, really force the player to focus on actual strategy.  It is imperative to approach each hole from the proper angle, or the green contours are likely to push the shot off line.  Kingsley does this as well, but with firmness not speed.  There is a downside to such speeds, but it is nice to actually have to think off of the tee.

The view from the tee, where you can clearly see the left to right nature of the hole and the way the fairway is beautifully draped over the land


The shot of the driving zone and you can see how sloped the green is - clearly showing the need for a draw.  


If anyone has a shot of the actual green, please feel free to post it, because it is a beauty

[Josh Tarble]

Like choosing between a favorite child or favorite pet, it's impossible to do.  I know this is probably a cop out, because SOMEONE always has to win, but I really can't decide which one I like better.  I think Kingsley may be a bit more fun to play day in, day out...but just typing that I had to rethink because the shots you need to play at Crystal are really fun as well.  If anything maybe Kingsley wins because a two is possible, but a three at Crystal is pretty much like a two at Kingsley.  I don't know....this is my thread and I am calling this one a DRAW.  Crystal Downs 2 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#9 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#10 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#11 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#12 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#13 (DRAW) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP

[George Pazin]

The shot of the driving zone and you can see how sloped the green is - clearly showing the need for a draw.  

Why does this favor a draw? I realize it's clear to everyone else, but not to me...

[Josh Tarble]

I guess the green is more clear in my mind, but it's significantly sloped from left to right...anything hit with a fade with grab the slope and trickle off the right side.

[Matthew Lloyd]

Calling this a dead-even hole is absolutely not a cop-out.  Both amazing holes.  I have nothing to add other than to concur with everything Josh wrote.

Not sure how many of you have ever played KC #13 with the pin at the far back left portion of the green.  If you ever confront this, please just pick up your ball and go to the 14th tee.  It will save you a lot of frustration and humiliation.  The hole becomes downright unplayable but in a really, really fun way.  I actually wish they put the pin back there more often. 

The fairway and slopes of the 13th at CD might be my favorite of any par 4 that I've played. 

[Bart Bradley]

I wonder what Bogey will say about me and my biases.

I think 13 Kingsley is very cool and interesting.  I understand the love of the hole by those who support it.  Options galore, challenge and, particularly from the up-tee, tempting.  But I remain unconvinced that the it works in reality as a truly spectacular green.  The back left hole location is insane.  The big bowl on the right should allow some really fun shots but mostly balls just end up in the right fringe.  I give the hole an A for effort and a B+/A- on playing quality.

13 at Crystal is fantastic.  The green contours create the strategy of both the tee shot and the approach.  The fairway is canted and has lovely movement.  The first time I played the hole I just happened to catch a perfect cut drive which caught the slope and bounded insanely forward.  I was so proud as I walked up to my ball and the caddy said you have 110 left.  But then he said, "you have to land this ball in an area about the size of a beach towel if you want to keep it close to the pin or even on the green".  My jaw dropped....

Bias or no, 13 at Crystal is a fabulous hole and wins another point.  CD 6 up and 9 points up. (I will be the first to admit that I love Kingsley and did not expect to have CD up 6 at this point.  Admittedly, I think Kingsley's maintenance meld is the best of any course that I have played and that does not show up here.  Nor does the awkward transition from 11 to 12 at Crystal.  Routing is very important in my book, and I wish this scoring system allowed for a routing factor).  I do sense a Kingsley rally coming however.  

Best,

Bart

[Howard Riefs]

Decisions, decisions.  How do you play #13? Josh covered the multitude of options. For the non-bombers who can’t scare it with a drive (present), the play is hitting a tee shot that will be adjacent to the left fairway bunker.  From there, it’s about ~90 yards to the front of the green and 110 to the back (not the far back finger).  I’ve experimented with hitting a longer shot, but from 50 yards out, the prospect of hitting a perfect 60* wedge from the thin fescue over the front bunker is unlikely. Instead, odds are, I thin it and beg that the back right bunker catches the errant shot.  


From gold tee



Front of green



From front left



JC with a superb drive to left of green. He settled for a birdie



Collection area back left and greenside bunker

[Jud_T]

13 at Kingsley is my favorite hole on the course and gives #6 at Pac Dunes a run for it's money as one of the best short Par 4's I've ever played.  Personally I think the best play is to lay back off the tee to give yourself a full pitching wedge in.  Hitting a lob wedge or some kind of half shot off the tight fescue turf at Kingsley is an advanced skill and a lower percentage shot IMO.  Furthermore, while I really don't have the distance to go for the green, unless you can put it in the front center or right greenside bunker, I think you simply bring too much trouble into play.  Hole high left is an almost certain bogey.  I'd be willing to make a wager that even a guy with Josh's distance would have a better scoring average out of 20 plays by laying up to a full wedge than giving it a go.  Sounds like something that needs to be decided with a bucket of balls and a bottle of bourbon next season!  The back left pin position is only in play for hard course day or when Tim Bert has his panties in a bunch, in which case the staff puts in 2 flags, 1 for normal play, and 1 for the criminally insane.  My favorite hole location is front left.  A green that has to be seen to be believed.  When you look up buried elephants in Webster's there's a picture of this green...

Kingsley win

CD 1 Up

[Bill Seitz]

Not sure how many of you have ever played KC #13 with the pin at the far back left portion of the green.  If you ever confront this, please just pick up your ball and go to the 14th tee.  It will save you a lot of frustration and humiliation.  The hole becomes downright unplayable but in a really, really fun way.  I actually wish they put the pin back there more often. 

On a couple of our trips up there, Andrew Lewis has asked our superintendent, Dan Lucas, for that pin.  Dan has occasionally obliged by sticking a second pin back there for the weekend, so there's a normal pin and the back pin available.  It's actually kind of fun in a match to make each other declare what pin they're playing, and give the guy going for the back pin an extra stroke.  It's a pretty scary shot, but it's definitely par-able.  On my first play to that pin, I made a bogey by driving into the front bunker, hitting from there to left greenside bunker, blasting out to the back right bunker, and getting that one up and down.  

If the pin is on the main top portion of this green, I like driving it up the left side and if it stays up on the hump, you can bump a hybrid or something fairly easily.  If it's on the front right portion, I think laying it back is probably the play (though I can never seem to convince myself of that).  The front bunker is actually a fairly good place to be to just about any normal pin.  And as Josh mentioned, if you're over on the right, it will roll back toward the rough and it leaves a fairly easy shot, though you wouldn't know it from how poorly I've hit that shot this year.  

[Howard Riefs]

My first play I thought I hit an ideal drive and would find myself putting for eagle, but because of the shaping of the green I found myself over the green in a back bunker.  Pretty sure I took an X (mainly because of poor play).

Confirmed.

[Josh Tarble]

 

Furthermore, while I really don't have the distance to go for the green, unless you can put it in the front center or right greenside bunker, I think you simply bring too much trouble into play.  Hole high left is an almost certain bogey.  I'd be willing to make a wager that even a guy with Josh's distance would have a better scoring average out of 20 plays by laying up to a full wedge than giving it a go.  Sounds like something that needs to be decided with a bucket of balls and a bottle of bourbon next season!  

Jud, I don't know....I think the only real trouble with hitting driver would be way right.  I think hole high left was a relatively straightforward, if difficult, shot.  The issue with laying back, in my opinion, is that the target is so small to get on the proper tier that it makes it a really tough shot.  Maybe to the back bowl the play would be to lay back...but then again, that might be the only place a driver would hold on the green.  Plus one of my layup shots I pulled into the bunker, so that was no help anyway.

In any case I am willing to join you to test out your theory.  You bring the bucket of balls I'll supply the bourbon!  

[Nick_Christopher]

#13 at KC from the right hand side is my preferred approach.  It forces you to flirt with the bunkers on the right side, but gives a better up hill angle to the longer part of the green.  Too often I misjudge from the left hand side and end up in the swale.  However, the ideal angle is dependent on where the flag is, and a drive down to the left side is better.   Overall, it is a fantastic hole with endless options!  

[Matt Glore]

Wonderful thread, thanks everyone for the pictures.  I have only played one round at Kingsley, but I can't wait to go back.  Crystal Downs looks fantastic.  
I'm also a victim of #13, driving it into that front bunker blast out then a easy three putt.  

[Jason Thurman]

Round 13

Styles make fights, and I'm not sure two more contrasting holes have faced off in this match.

13 at Crystal Downs is understated. It's almost tranquil and benign looking. The left-to-right sweep of the fairway across its sidehill slope is absolutely textbook, and the interior views over to the corridor of the 15th give a beautiful sense of place to this part of the course. You feel so far from the rambunctious and open terrain of the front nine. If the first nine holes of Crystal Downs test your creativity and critical thinking skills, the next seven test your command of fundamentals and execution. The front side features holes that shake the foundation of your paradigm of what golf should look like. The back side reassembles that foundation while testing thoroughly the game that you've built upon it. It's akin to Roy Jones spending the first half of a fight throwing counters and landing haymakers with plenty of handspeed and flourish, and then boxing behind a pinpoint jab and superb combinations for the second half.

13 at Kingsley Club lies in direct opposition to the 13th at its sister course. It floats on its own platform, high above the 12th fairway, and seems to command its own stage and exist in isolation from the rest of the course more than any hole since the first. It looks confusing, and becomes more so after multiple plays. The playing angles available make the cone of dispersion for an ideal tee shot as wide as 100 yards, and the hole itself is only 290 or so in length. It's an "execute or die" hole on equal severity to the 17th at Sawgrass. Like that more famous hole, it doesn't ask the golfer to do anything obscene for a par. Just execute shots that cover a modest distance, but execute them with extreme precision.

Josh mentioned the discussion had at the River Camp on Saturday night of potential strategies to play 13. I won't rehash my feelings on the strategies of the hole here, other than to say that I think suggesting a single "right way" to play this hole is reductionist and that the ideal strategy likely changes drastically depending on the pin position, which makes the hole almost completely unique among short fours in my experience.

What's most significant about that discussion at the River Camp for me is how it reached golf's highest purpose. I recall sitting on a stool next to a fireplace, drinking extraordinary beer brewed locally and balancing on the fringe of mild drunkenness after 3 straight days of 36 holes of golf, surrounded by strangers and an "old" friend or two, 20 miles from civilization and almost 8 hours from home. We passionately discussed the best way to whack an object with a stick on an obscure 400 square yards of grass in the middle of a forest somewhere. We argued, laughed, and busted each others' balls (ok, I was the asshole doing most of the ball busting, as I'm afraid I'm the same jackass in person that I am online). When we all said our goodbyes the next day, it was with measurably more affection for each other than it would've been the day before. The 13th at Kingsley helped build real friendships that night.

KC wins, 10 - 8

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7
8th round: CD wins 10 - 9
9th round: KC wins 10 - 8
10th round: KC wins 10 - 9
11th round: CD wins 10 - 9
12th round: CD wins 10 - 9
13th round: KC wins 10 - 8

Running Total: CD 123, KC 119

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