The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event

[JC Jones]

Yes, there is still a shorter rough collection area short right. 

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,
And maybe that is why I've never been a fan of these hole by hole comparisons. A golf course is the sum of 18 holes and Mike does give us lots of helpers (if you are smart enough to see them) everywhere else on the course. But on 2 & 9, short iron shots for sure, he says in his west Michigan Dutch way, hit it here pal and don't cry if you don't!

Maybe as stand alones, they don't shine; maybe as part of the group, they add the proper variety.

I'm 100% in agreement with you re hole by hole comparisons. It would be like comparing Tommy by The Who vs. The Wall by Pink Floyd. There's a story to tell, and it doesn't happen in one song.

Joe

[Jud_T]

Tommy is better, period. The Who rock live while the Floyd is a mere collection of studio stiffs.  The connection to GCA and this thread is for you to decide...

[Nick_Christopher]

I don't see either hole as hit and hope with no options if you miss.  A par is very difficult  if you miss, but a bogey on both is very likely if you know where to hit your second shot.  On #2, a miss requires you to play to the back of the green, which is by far the widest part.  When the pin is in the front sucker position, I have played to the flat spot - off the green -, leaving a tough, but manageable chip and putt.  On #9, there are plenty of places to hit it to ensure that it stays on the putting surface, you just cannot assume blindly that the second shot should be at the flag stick.

On both a recovery par is possible, but only with outstanding execution of the recovery shot that for most people (especially me) isn't worth the risk/reward.  

4 is a fine score on both - particularly in match play!

[jeffwarne]

So this is match play between a consensus Top 20 US course and an unranked but golfclubatlas-centric homer favorite. Back to playoff baseball.

NGLA vs. Bellerive probably didn't seem like a fair fight in 1983 either.......
Times change
Tastes change

[Bart Bradley]

Sorry to be late on round 4.

The holes have been well described.  Kingsley features an awkward landing zone and with a good drive yet another wedge approach.  Crystal 4 has a beautiful canted fairway.  Both have excellent greens.  Crystal 4 is the winner putting Crystal 1 up.

Bart

[Bill Seitz]

Briefly, but I hope to write more later:

Two is my favorite hole on the course, but the reason I feel two and nine work as "all or nothing" holes (which already is false) is because they're very short. You have an eight iron or less most of the time. You should be able to hit a precision shot, and if you can't, you deserve a bogey a worse. It's not like they're surrounded by water with really no chance of recovery (maybe I've missed all the posts about how the 17th at Sawgrass is a terrible hole).  I don't think asking a player to hit a shot within 40 feet with a short iron or wedge is too much to ask.

With regard to nine being a great playoff hole, it's for a couple reasons. First, it's right by the clubhouse. Second, it's because anything can happen, from a hole in one to winning with a five. Third, and maybe most important, it's because you really have a multitude of teeing options for a playoff. That includes the alternate gold tee on the first hole, which calls for a shot over the scoreboard. I've seen this hole halved with par from there. It is ridiculously fun, both to play and watch.

[Jason Thurman]

Bill, I agree. I think the "all or nothing" angle has been overplayed on both. I do believe that both holes ask for a very high level of execution and punish misses severely, but I've never felt like either was a particularly tough bogey. They're just really difficult pars if you miss the green off the tee.

[DMoriarty]

You have an eight iron or less most of the time. You should be able to hit a precision shot, and if you can't, you deserve a bogey a worse.

I love statements like this.  It is the other side of the coin to the "fairness" argument and makes just about as much sense to me.  But then I prefer to keep golfing my ball, even after I don't hit "a precision shot."

IMO nine was a ridiculous hole, especially in the wind.  Like some of the other greens at Kingsley, I found the green overdone and it didn't seem to go with the surrounding terrain at all.

Never played it, but I don't think I'd like Sawgrass 17 either.  But it is twice as deep as Kingsley 9. 

[BHoover]

You have an eight iron or less most of the time. You should be able to hit a precision shot, and if you can't, you deserve a bogey a worse.

IMO nine was a ridiculous hole, especially in the wind.  Like some of the other greens at Kingsley, I found the green overdone and it didn't seem to go with the surrounding terrain at all.

I came a foot from acing #9 twice. It's definitely not a ridiculous hole...unless you mean ridiculously fun.

[DMoriarty]

Congratulations on your near aces.

Ridiculous may be too strong a word, but to me on a windy location that hole makes no sense.  Precision or death on a windy location isn't quality design.  In my opinion.

[Nick_Christopher]

Not sure if any of the greens on Kingsley are best described as "overdone".  Mike moved about 40,000 cubic yards of dirt on the entire golf course, and half of that was on #18 (which was a severely sloping hillside from right to left -knocked down at the request of one of the owners to provide a right hand landing area).

That isn't to say that the greens are not severe, but I believe they were mostly "found" and shaped minimally.

The ninth hole is 120 yards from the West blue tee - downhill - a short iron for anyone; and 141 from the South Tee.  Each has a bowl that the player can aim for that is very manageable.   If the pin is on the opposite bowl from the one that is easy to hit- two very good putts are needed to make par.  If the player takes the risk to aim at the flag and misses, then a one shot penalty is in order.  Where people get into trouble is when they hit at the flag with their recovery shot - rather than the shot that is available.

[JC Jones]

You have an eight iron or less most of the time. You should be able to hit a precision shot, and if you can't, you deserve a bogey a worse.

I love statements like this.  It is the other side of the coin to the "fairness" argument and makes just about as much sense to me.  But then I prefer to keep golfing my ball, even after I don't hit "a precision shot."

IMO nine was a ridiculous hole, especially in the wind.  Like some of the other greens at Kingsley, I found the green overdone and it didn't seem to go with the surrounding terrain at all.

Never played it, but I don't think I'd like Sawgrass 17 either.  But it is twice as deep as Kingsley 9. 

Check out this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=47794.0

Maybe #9 would be ok if it was at Pacific Dunes, or Shinnecock, or Troon or Kiawah Ocean or Harbourtown or other great places with penal par 3s?

[DMoriarty]

If have you played the 14th at Pac Dunes, then you know that there is no comparison in terms of playability.

[BHoover]

Congratulations on your near aces.

Ridiculous may be too strong a word, but to me on a windy location that hole makes no sense.  Precision or death on a windy location isn't quality design.  In my opinion.

In all seriousness, I think the green offers plenty of room to play safe. Yes, you need to play a quality shot to hit the green, but since when is that a new concept? If that is the standard for quality design, then the last 125 years of design is not quality.

[JC Jones]

Moriarty,

I have played Pacific Dunes and given the wind possibility out there and the fact that it is a public course, I think it is pretty penal.  There are also others listed in that thread and ones I listed.  How about #5 at Pine Valley? 

[Bart Bradley]

We are not even close to reaching discussion of 9.  Lets stick to the thread.

Bart

[DMoriarty]

Brian,

My opinion differs, and I don't think I am alone on this one.  

Nick,

If you would prefer me to use the word "severe" then I'm fine with that.  But the 9th green surface did not seem "found" to me (I'd be very surprised to find out for sure that it was.)  It just didn't work or fit, in my opinion.  I very much enjoyed the course and many of the holes, but in my limited experience that hole was the low point of the course.    

Jones.  I haven't played Pine Valley.  I have no idea what you think penal means, which is why I referred to the playability.  I've played Pacific Dunes a few dozen times and I don't think I have ever been in my pocket on that hole.  And I suck.  [Added: On second thought, knowing me I've probably been in my pocket on every hole, but I don't recall being in my pocket there.]

[JC Jones]

We are not even close to reaching discussion of 9.  Lets stick to the thread.

Bart

Good point!!!

[Tim Bert]

The whining about 2 and 9 are incredible. I am awful at golf. I can barely get the ball in the freakin air any more.  The first time I visited Kingsley and played 36 holes I left thinking 9 was extremely controversial and 2 was really easy. I bought into all the talk of 9 might get blown up and it was impossibly hard. Upon repeated plays, 9 is much less severe than 2. 9 is not a hit and hope hole. It isn't always a go for the pin hole but it also isn't a blow up hole waiting to happen. I card tons of x's and triple or worse scores at Kingsley. Rarely do these occur at 9. If the pin is in the west end of the green the hole plays a stroke easier than any other position. In the other spots it isn't a difficult bogey. This isn't Josh or Bill or any number of other good or skilled golfers talking. This is a crappy 18 on a handicap death spiral.

2 is much more difficult than 9.  I already discussed the opportunity for recovery there.

Let's all go ahead and collectively whine about 15 and how it doesn't have the gigantic punchbowl green that a long par 4 needs.

I can't figure out if the course is too easy or too difficult for some of you people - I think it is both at times which is what I love.

Despite its severity in places, Kingsley is easily more playable for me than almost every elite modern course out there.  Thank goodness the red tees are there when I need them on bad days.

The irony of talking about over the top greens and severity at Kingsley when it is being discussed in conjunction with Crystal Downs is most excellent.

How's that for a car wreck, Bogey?  Glad I could contribute.  

[Nick_Christopher]

Tim - your comment regarding the severity of Kingsley vs. CD is dead on.  I love it that somehow Kingsley is being portrayed as more severe!

Again - I absolutely love both courses; however the only potential issue with CD in it's current form is that some of the greens seem as if they are maintained at speeds that may not have been achievable in 1929 when the Maxwell was building them.  And thus the slopes on some (#1 jumps to mind) may have been intended for slower putting surfaces.  As a set, I feel that CD's are more severe.

When I was a caddy in high school, I used to be regularly told by members that if I could learn to putt at the Downs, then I cold putt anywhere.  They were right - unfortunately I never did learn!

[Josh Tarble]

To hopefully return this thread to the rails again...

Hole number five:

Kingsley Club #5 - 222 yards - Par 3

A polar opposite and perfect compliment to #2 and #9, this par three plays far easier than its given yardage.  From the back tee, the ideal tee ball is probably played closer to 200 yards than 225 with the ideal line pretty much anywhere inside the two dunes.  The green is a giant two tiered bowl.  The only place dead is long in the bunker, and even then I'd guess it would be a relatively easy bunker shot (also I think needs mentioned, both KC and CD have the IDEAL sand for bunker play.  Firm, yet soft).  The back left tier is extremely difficult to stay up on and I would venture to guess impossible from the very back tees; fortunately any pin on the right side is likely to see a makeable birdie putt (or an ACE as I witnessed first hand - that was pretty cool).

View from the back tee box - anywhere between the tall dune on the left and the bunkers right


Crystal Downs #5 - 353 yards - Par 4

After stepping onto this tee and taking a look at what I was facing I was completely confounded.  Do you try to play left of the "3 sisters" bunkers, over the tree, over the far bunker even?  Pictures don't do this hole one bit of justice, the scale of it all is absolutely wild...it looks so short and yet where do you go.  I would venture to guess modern technology has made this hole even better, bringing the green into firing distance for the big hitters.  At least that's what I thought...

I can't even begin to say what the ideal play is because I am sure it varies from day to day, wind to wind, player to player.  I tried going directly at the green and would probably try that every time but it's a serious carry over the hill; I'm guessing 260-270 to reach the short grass.  But laying up with a 220 club to the upper fairway would leave a flat lie and a good look at the green. But what fun is not bombing driver?   And the green...incredibly, it's another amazing one. The green slopes drastically from left to right and it also has a tier in the middle-back that feeds shots to the right and away from back pin positions.  It certainly requires a precise iron shot to get one close.  (also for those keeping track at home this was the third 3 putt of the day)

I could write about this hole all day and I don't think it would be enough...options on the tee ball, options on the approach, options on recovery

The view from the tee reveals nothing


Approach view, I think this does an O.K. job of showing the left to right cant of the green


In my opinion, #5 at KC is one of the weaker holes on the course - but at the same time it is still incredibly fun.  It does perfectly compliment the two very difficult short par 3s on the front, but if #2 sends all but a perfect shot into trouble, #5 sends all but the most awful into a pretty good spot.   #5 at CD on the other hand is undoubtedly one of the coolest par 4s I've had the pleasure of playing.  One could pick a shot; tee, approach, recovery or putt and spend countless hours trying to find the best way to execute it.  Crystal Downs takes this one handily.  CD 1 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP

[Jud_T]

David,

8 is the least receptive green on the course and the toughest up and down. Long of the green on Pac Dunes #6 requires about as fine a touch as anything at Kingsley.  It's also one of the best short 4s on the planet IMO.  Funny that nobody who's whining about 2 and 9 has 10 rounds in at KC.  At this rate I can't wait for #7.

#4 's a push.  Honestly don't recall the 4th at CD well enough, although it seems like reverse camber holes are generally frowned upon at less renowned venues.  I recall Brad Klein eviscerating my former club for having 3 of 'em shortly after I joined.  4 green at KC is great fun but the drive is a bit one-dimensional as the ball bounds left or right, which may be relieved somewhat by the new tee angle.

KC 1 Up

# 5 might be the largest margin of victory in the entire match.  5 at CD is truly an all-world hole both off the tee and at the green.  It's only marred by the speed at which they run the greens, which makes the hole play borderline OTT with the slope on that green.  #5 at KC might be the most overrated hole on the course.  Very scenic and a fun shot, but everything gathers at the bottom of the bowl.  Holding the upper tier is almost impossible.  Only real interest to the green is putting back up to the upper tier.  My least favorite of the par 3s.  Mind you at most any other course this would be the signature hole...

All Square through 5.

[Tim Bert]

Now that I am done vehemently defending 2 and 9 I will go on the record as saying that 5 is much more fun than either of those two holes. I love waiting to see if my shot will come racing across the green after it disappears and I love the hope and anticipation every round that the pin plays in the bowl.

The 5th at Crystal downs is baleautiful and challenging and fun. An outstanding mid length to shortish par 4. I won't be the one that picks Kingsley here for Tom Doak to mock. I will save that for later on the front nine.

Crystal Downs wins 5 and goes 1 Up.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Great, make a few comments about 2 & 9 and now it is whining and somehow that is turned into saying that Kingsley is more severe then CD.

I love Kingsley, have said so many times, and while I don't have 10 rounds in (5-6 I believe) I know what I think and I tried to lay it out in a reasoned way, but obviously I've touched a nerve by having the gall to have an opinion.

Carry on Kingsley members, you should close out CD by the 15th.