[Mike Hendren]

I'm reading this thread for the same reason I watch NASCAR - the wrecks.

Arguably, the 4th at Crystal Downs is one of the best par fours in America. 

Bogey

[Peter Pallotta]

Shame on you, Bogey.

I'm a northerer, and even once wrote a long documentary on Formula One racing -- but there's nothing in racing I remember more fondly than watching the King in his blue and red #43 taking an outside line way up high against the wall at Talladega at almost 200 miles an hour as his arch-nemesis David Pearson swung his white #21 down low and hard off the draft to try and pass him coming out of turn 4...the checkered flag poised above the starting line and in sight halfway along that long front straightaway. Now THAT'S car racing!

Peter    

[David Kelly]

Shame on you, Bogey.

I'm a northerer, and even once wrote a long documentary on Formula One racing -- but there's nothing in racing I remember more fondly than watching the King in his blue and red #43 taking an outside line way up high against the wall at Talladega at almost 200 miles an hour as his arch-nemesis David Pearson swung his white #21 down low and hard off the draft to try and pass him coming out of turn 4...the checkered flag poised above the starting line and in sight halfway along that long front straightaway. Now THAT'S car racing! 

Or this infamous finish to the 1976 Daytona 500.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHfxBINMraM

[JC Jones]

I'm reading this thread for the same reason I watch NASCAR - the wrecks.

Arguably, the 4th at Crystal Downs is one of the best par fours in America. 

Bogey

And so it must be....

[JC Jones]

Once again, it's a battle between savvy and moxie. The fourth at Crystal Downs is just so elegant. It sits beautifully on the land with a gentle reverse-camber fairway and that bunker on the inside of the right fairway is perhaps a bit odd looking, but also eye-catching. It's a perfect example of Pete Dye's favorite kind of hole - one that asks for opposing shot shapes on the tee shot and approach shot. The terrain can't match that of Kingsley's fourth for drama.

Those rolling humps in the fairway create varying awkward stances over multiple plays

Of course, Kingsley's fourth is the more dramatic hole. The terrain borders on the edge of what's appropriate for golf, and when Kingsley is at its best it stays just inside the edge of that border. The fourth is a perfect example.

I had every intention of giving this round to Kingsley when I began writing this post.

Thurms wrote so many things that I agreed with that it would be redundant for me to do anything but quote him above.  I don't love the tee shot on the 4th at Crystal Downs as I think that the option of being 20 yards right and being OB or being 20 yards left and being lost ball in the gunch is really not a "fun" option.  The maintenance issues at Crystal Downs are no more obvious than on the 4th hole.  Perhaps this is to protect people from going too far left, which is the ideal angle to the green, but it is overdone.

I also think the green site and approach options at Kingsley's 4th are very underrated.  I've seen enough people in the bunkers and come up short of the green surface to know that it isn't the cake it's being made out to be.  I also think that although the green is a double bowl, there is significant movement inside the bowls to make a two putt dicier than you'd think.

Nonetheless, I think the green at the 4th at Crystal is the 3rd best on the front 9 and the way it is maintained around the green is among the best at Crystal.  So, for all the reasons quoted above and Saltzman's point about the green surrounds, the 4th goes to Crystal Downs.

Running Score

#1 - Draw - Even
#2 - Kingsley - KC 1 up
#3 - Downs - Even
#3 - Downs - CD 1 up

[Tim Bert]

For the average (or worse) golfer, the 4th at Kingsley is a relief after the first 3 difficult holes.  The 4th at Crystal Downs is a brute.

As with #3 playing from the reds or whites at Kingsley is a load of fun.  You can take back to back par fours and make them each "go for it" type of holes even for the less than average length hitter. It is a ton of fun to stand on the white tee and watch the bounces and rolls in hopes of making the final crest to the green. Or in the case of the bigger hitters watching them fly it to the front and then just hope like hell it stops.

At Crystal Downs, everything about #4 is set up for me to hate it.  To my eye, the tee shot requires more movement than any other on the course. Couple this with the fact that it is left to right movement and I can't hit a draw to save my life and it is devastating. I then get the privilege of hitting a long iron to the green, since I won't be able to hug the fairway on the right side and bite off a little more. Watching the ball bounce and roll to the hole on the approach is a treat.

Crystal Downs wins the hole and puts the match all square through 4 on my card.

[Mark Bourgeois]

David, Peter, and Michael H:

That last-hole car crash thing has been done already -- just this morning by Kavanaugh over on the DR thread. Sucked the air right out of that strategy. The Greek Chorus would be very unhappy with another 18th hole car wreck so the KClubbers are going to have to engineer a different outcome. Well, not a different "outcome" as we know the fix is in. Maybe instead of a wreck we could have a "fumes" victory where they have KC build a lead, let CD back in with wins on 16 & 17, then draw on 18 to finish with a 1-up win?

I like finishes with double reversals. What do you think, maybe run it by a preview audience?

[BHoover]

I think that Josh is to be applauded for how well he can describe the holes and how he played them, particularly each hole at Kingsley where, in two rounds, he beat me pretty soundly each time.

Having not played Crystal, I volunteer myself to do so in the spring so that I can make a more informed comparison. 

[Howard Riefs]

It is a good hole, but can't stack up to the options and fun of #3 at TKC. Two cool features of the green complex that stand out to me are the flat areas to the left and behind the green.  They provide really fun recover shots.  Also the hog back running along the green provides for fun running shots from the left side of the fairway that can get close to a back right pin, while avoiding the two bunkers on the right hand side.  Too often, I mis-hit my approach and have to contest with those!

Quite right. The flat areas on the left, right and behind the 3rd Kingsley are somewhat unique on the course and a cool feature; perhaps we a flat areas to this degree again behind and right of #10 green. The extra room behind #3 green also gives the player some added cushion if they go after a pin that's tucked on the right behind the bunkers. Certainly much better long than short and down in the collection area.  

On to hole number 4:
Kingsley Club #4 - 411 yards - Par 4
The back pin is really cool and my first "Kingsley" experience was watching Mr. Riefs' recovery shot bank off a side-board, funnel and continue rolling about 270 degrees around the edge of the green coming to rest about 4 feet from the hole    

Thanks.  Definitely a fun shot.  

The new tees on #4 at Kingsley are going to be amazing.  Any thoughts on the strategy of the approach shot into this green?  I'm starting to think the ideal shot is a low runner up the right side and using the sideboards to get the ball to the hole.

-  If the pin is front or middle on the right side of the green: Low runner toward the front right sideboard.
-  If the pin is front or middle on the left side or center of the green:  Run it up the front of the green.
-  If the pin is back: Punch iron or, depending on distance, a full iron shot knowing that the ball will typically funnel toward the same general area in the punchbowl.  

Here’s a view of #4 from this June when we played the hole as a short par 4 (281 yards) from the red tee, which makes for a cool hole.  If memory serves, Bill (here) and Chris both drove the green and two-putted for their birdie.



 

[Greg Taylor]

Fully expect CD to be three or four up after this stretch... they really are a great run of holes... up there with the best!

[Matthew Lloyd]

Love the idea of playing #3 and #4 at Kingsley as drivable par 4s every now and then to spice things up.  Not as punitive as #13 probably but I'll have to find that out for myself I guess.  This will definitely be tested out next spring. 

[Howard Riefs]

Love the idea of playing #3 and #4 at Kingsley as drivable par 4s every now and then to spice things up.  Not as punitive as #13 probably but I'll have to find that out for myself I guess.  This will definitely be tested out next spring. 

While you're at it, move up to the red tees on #7 and play it as a long par 4.

[David Kelly]

David, Peter, and Michael H:

That last-hole car crash thing has been done already -- just this morning by Kavanaugh over on the DR thread. Sucked the air right out of that strategy. The Greek Chorus would be very unhappy with another 18th hole car wreck so the KClubbers are going to have to engineer a different outcome. Well, not a different "outcome" as we know the fix is in. Maybe instead of a wreck we could have a "fumes" victory where they have KC build a lead, let CD back in with wins on 16 & 17, then draw on 18 to finish with a 1-up win?

I'll know the fix is in if KC's 9th beats CD's 9th.

[Bill Seitz]

I'll know the fix is in if KC's 9th beats CD's 9th.

If I were taking part, that would be one of the only obvious Kingsley wins for me.  I don't recall CD's ninth being all that special, while Kingsley's 9th may be one of the best match play holes I've ever played.  And not that it should necessarily be part of the criteria, but it's a perfect playoff hole.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I'll know the fix is in if KC's 9th beats CD's 9th.

It's apparent you don't play poker but are you aware of the metaphorical application of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? Hopefully Bill S's post immunized yours from tainting the outcome. Well, not the "outcome" but the play of the game.

[Don_Mahaffey]

My love for Kingsley is well documented. Just ask Joe Hancock if you don't believe me. And I think the turf conditions that Dan Lucas presents take the course to a level few can match as all the nuance is revealed.
But....I can not let Bill Seitz's comments go unchallenged. Since when is a great "match play hole" all about hitting one shot. The only real criticism I have with Kingsley is the 2nd and the 9th. Both holes ask for a certain shot to a certain part of the green from any tee you play. And both SEVERLY punish the slightest miss. How is a hole that gives me almost no hope of recovery a great match play hole?

The last few times I've played the 9th I've come to believe that the front bunker is the target and a 4 is better then a 7. And I've played good at Kingsley (again ask Joe). I think there are so many great holes at Kingsley that I overlook 2 and 9, but I struggle with the idea that these two holes, that require absolute precision or death, are "great" holes.

[JC Jones]

This thread will be a lot of fun regardless of whether the people who feel the need to throw condescending pot shots continue, walk away or choose to engage with substantive discussion.

Don,

Thank you for providing some substance.  Although we aren't there yet, what are your thoughts on Crystal downs 8th green, 10th green and 11th hole when using the "precision or death" analysis?  

[David Kelly]

I'll know the fix is in if KC's 9th beats CD's 9th.

If I were taking part, that would be one of the only obvious Kingsley wins for me.  I don't recall CD's ninth being all that special, while Kingsley's 9th may be one of the best match play holes I've ever played.  And not that it should necessarily be part of the criteria, but it's a perfect playoff hole.

Bill,

I'm with Don re: #2 & #9 (the only questionable holes on a very good front nine) although I don't even know if the front bunker on #9 is the play since one of the times I played the hole I was in the middle of the front three bunkers, blasted out to the back of the green and had it roll 30 feet right back into the bunker.   Crystal Downs' 9th hole is the least interesting hole on its front nine.

Do you mean that KC #9 is a perfect playoff hole because it is close to the clubhouse and it is unlikely that two players will card the same score on the hole?

[Don_Mahaffey]

JC, I've only walked CD, never hit a shot.
So, take my answers with that ignorance in mind.
I think CD severely punishes a weak approach on a number of holes. But, it seemed to me that you could still get a club on the ball in most cases. At both the 2nd and the 9th at KGC, I have been left with an impossible chip out of long grass. I can't make 3 anymore, but how about a chance at 5?

To me a great match play hole is where you might still be in it even if you've made a mistake. Partly because there is enough challenge so player A who might be in the driver's seat still has some work to do, and partly because player B still has a chance to make a tying bogey, and maybe even a spectacular par.  

[JC Jones]

Don,

Thanks, that makes sense to me and I think you make a great point and provide an interesting perspective on how to analyze a hole.

[Jud_T]

Don,

Neither hole is an all-or-nothing proposition,  but you must know where not to miss and where to recover, almost irregardless of where the pin is on either hole.  For most everyone this takes a number of plays and a number of Xs to come to terms with.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jud,
I get that, but what that means is as you are driving down the gravel road, you already know that no matter the weather, the hole location, the wind, or your opponents position, there is only one place to hit it.

I think Mike D is brilliant, and I know he expects us to hits shots, but in these two cases, I feel like he took execution just a bit too far.

Now...for the rest of the golf course, don't get me started, side banks, bumps, back boards, punch bowls...he has it all going on and he has Dan L. just flat dialing it in, but 2 and 9 feel like.... better slice this 9 ball perfectly in the side pocket without scratching or you get a swift kick in the nuts.

[Joe Hancock]

Besides Mahaffey being a sore winner(   ), I might disagree with him about the precision shots required on #2 and #9. I do agree that those shots are demanding, but I disagree that it is a flaw, per se. I've spent my summer building greens, trying to incorporate as many routes and shot selections as possible to get  as many golfers on the greens if they just think a bit.. Yes, that's fun golf, but for a members' course like Kingsley, I see nothing wrong with making the player hit the shot. Do I want a full course of them? No, but other than #2 and #9, there's not a lot of that demand on the rest of the course. Remember....variety.....

Joe

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joe,
And maybe that is why I've never been a fan of these hole by hole comparisons. A golf course is the sum of 18 holes and Mike does give us lots of helpers (if you are smart enough to see them) everywhere else on the course. But on 2 & 9, short iron shots for sure, he says in his west Michigan Dutch way, hit it here pal and don't cry if you don't!

Maybe as stand alones, they don't shine; maybe as part of the group, they add the proper variety.

[DMoriarty]

Reading the comments on No. 2 make me think that I may be misremembering the hole.  Isn't there a very steep collection area on the short right side?  Is this area still maintained as shortish grass?

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