[Tim Bert]

Tom - Yes #2 at Kingsley has the knack to produce some ping pong which can get tiresome unles you are playing in a match and just pick up. BUT... The rear portion of that green is plenty wide to catch the vast majority of recovery shots if you take ego out of play and don't aim at the pin.  I have made far more 4s from my misses than I have 6s or x's. Sometimes my ego gets in the way, sometimes I just don't execute the shot I tried to hit, but frequently if you are willing to accept a long putt and a likely two putt you can get out of the crap and on the putting surface.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just another aside from the sidelines (sorry, I can't help myself):

Besides the other thoughts I've shared about my time at CD, I remember two things, only one of which I'll mention now: i) that I came away thinking how much I liked the par 3s there. That has never happened to me before, or since.

Also, a thought strikes me: in this (and other match plays), the question/debateable point I see is that a course's truly outstanding hole(s) still only count as 1 point (I know, that's why it's matchplay). But that means that one viable way of judging a course -- i.e. the number and quality of truly outstanding and transcendent golf holes -- is taking off the table.

Peter

[Jud_T]

One of the problems with match play comparison is that we don't consider that this is the third straight hole we are hitting a short iron approach at Kingsley (assuming we laid up on 1).

Bart,

If I'm ever hitting a short iron into #1, I'll let you know.  Sounds like you need to take up hickories!

[Mark Bourgeois]

How many gca.com guys are Kingsley members?

I haven't run the algorithm lately but here's what you do:

Kingsley members = ( [GCA.com members] - [Dismal members] - [Ballyneal members] - [Deal members] ) x adjustment for overlapping memberships - ( PP + TL + MB)

Anyway, this thread is just the USA equivalent to JNC's Deal v RSG thread a while back. You know the fix is in -- as in any caper movie you know the ending but the enjoyment lies in watching how they do it. That's why the Deal-Sandwich thread failed: it was abandoned before the end after the Dealies presumably painted themselves into a corner. I sense these Kingsley members are of purer conviction and won't make a rookie mistake like letting Sandwich go 1-up after 15.

[Terry Lavin]

Terry - I count at least twelve.  No playoff baseball on this morning?

I will say that it is quite a compliment to the course and the club that guys from Chicago will drive six hours each way a few times a year to play golf and hang around in a remote location. I have enough difficulty getting to the Dunes Club which is only 75 minutes away. Maybe I'll go pester you guys up there next year. Looks quite fetching.

[Josh Tarble]

Also, a thought strikes me: in this (and other match plays), the question/debateable point I see is that a course's truly outstanding hole(s) still only count as 1 point (I know, that's why it's matchplay). But that means that one viable way of judging a course -- i.e. the number and quality of truly outstanding and transcendent golf holes -- is taking off the table.

Peter

Peter, I completely agree with this...matchplay takes away so many other factors in judging a course, like flow and composition of the course, maintenance, etc. etc.  It is just a fun exercise for me personally.  I could have gone without even choosing a "winner" or a "loser" but it makes it a bit more interesting that way

[Jud_T]

Terry-probably only about 4 hours from the Bev without traffic.

[Tim Bert]

Mark - As Andrew Lewis well knows, you always want to be behind coming to the end of a big match thus ensuring that when the match ends all square you have the honor to select all of the extra holes. 

[Josh Tarble]

Terry, you should really try to get up there.  Take these two courses and add in Arcadia (I know it gets panned, but it was a very enjoyable afternoon/evening) and probably Forest Dunes and it makes one hell of a long weekend.

[Jud_T]

F&*$ Arcadia, Belvedere is THE hidden gem Up North....

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tim, or you can set up the scoring system yourself. Pretty clever Kavanaugh threw in a 10-7, the first of the match, on the last hole of DR-BN. I say that was too clever by half as a sophisticated audience can see right through a deus ex machina move like that one. But maybe everyone saw a 10-9 coming and he felt he had to get creative.

[Josh Tarble]

Jud, you have definitely made your opinion be known on Arcadia    I can see why it gets panned, but if you go into by first, paying only the twilight and second, not expecting a minimalistic links course...it makes for a fun afternoon.  Not to get my own thread off track though. 

[Nick_Christopher]

#3 at the Downs is a pretty hole - the redone bunker in the back right is especially cool.  15 years ago it was a much more ordinary looking rounded bunker.  The look now is very natural, and it is almost just an exposed part of the wooded dune that sits above the hole.  Having said that, this hole doesn't stand out to me as something utterly unique.  It is a good hole, but can't stack up to the options and fun of #3 at TKC.

Two cool features of the green complex that stand out to me are the flat areas to the left and behind the green.  They provide really fun recover shots.  Also the hog back running along the green provides for fun running shots from the left side of the fairway that can get close to a back right pin, while avoiding the two bunkers on the right hand side.  Too often, I mis-hit my approach and have to contest with those!

KC 1 Up after 3.

[Peter Pallotta]

Judge - your questions here would be like you saying to a defendent who's just made his case: "Hey, I know what's going on here - you're just saying all those things to try to make me believe that you're innocent!" Well, of course he is -- but I imagine that on the bench at least you'd usually just sit back and enjoy the show....you know, in a I-know-you're-lying-but-let's-see-how'well-you'do sort of way  

Peter

[JC Jones]

Terry-probably only about 4 hours from the Bev without traffic.

Yes, but he is old so he drives slow. 

[JC Jones]

One of the problems with match play comparison is that we don't consider that this is the third straight hole we are hitting a short iron approach at Kingsley (assuming we laid up on 1).

I have the same issue at Crystal Downs.  Depending on the wind I'm hitting 7-9 iron on each of the first 3 holes.

[Jason Thurman]

Jud, you have definitely made your opinion be known on Arcadia    I can see why it gets panned, but if you go into by first, paying only the twilight and second, not expecting a minimalistic links course...it makes for a fun afternoon.  Not to get my own thread off track though. 

The twilight rate isn't all about the cost either. That's the best sunset on a golf course I've ever experienced firsthand. The reflection of the sun off the water gives you an extra 15 minutes of decent light to boot. Arcadia's a good course. I like it better than the Irish at Whistling Straits, and I don't entirely mean that as a backhanded compliment.

Also, my wife is going to make me leave this website if she ever finds out that I posted about what a wonderful sunset at Arcadia you and I had.

[Jud_T]

Ok,

I too prefer Arcadia to the Irish, but that doesn't mean you'll see me forgoing 3 rounds at Belvedere for either anytime soon...

[Josh Tarble]

On to hole number 4:

Kingsley Club #4 - 411 yards - Par 4
This is a serious rollercoaster of a fairway.  Just like hole 3, you can play for accuracy and an ideal look into the green or you can play for distance and be possibly hampered by a blind approach.  The tee ball is quite challenging to keep on the hogs back, but ample room both falling off left and falling off right.  Pretty much the only place you don't want to be is the right fairway bunker...that thing is nasty and deep.  This green makes almost all of the shots fun though, it is overall sloped from back to front, with a somewhat double-bowl shape.  If you can put your approach on the proper level, you will most likely be rewarded with a shortish putt at birdie.  The back pin is really cool and my first "Kingsley" experience was watching Mr. Riefs' recovery shot bank off a side-board, funnel and continue rolling about 270 degrees around the edge of the green coming to rest about 4 feet from the hole  

The view from the tee box - gives an idea how small of a target the top of the fairway is


View from behind the green, almost showing the "double-bow" nature of the green


Crystal Downs #4 - 409 yards - Par 4
In my opinion, Crystal Downs really comes to life on the 4th tee box.  First of all, the tee is literally steps off of #3 green, which besides being just cool in general is absolutely ideal for walking.  The tee ball is begging for a left to right ball flight hugging the right side of the fairway.  Ideally, a ball will fight the reverse cant of the fairway for a good look up the green, not needing to carry the collection area short left.  

This is probably going to amaze everyone, but the green and surroundings are again, really, really cool.  In my opinion the collection area dominates the play and while collecting more wayward shots than a bunker, provides far more recovery options.  After hitting a piss poor fade attempt into the woods, I played a miracle shot to get up and down out of the swale for a double.

View from just short and left of the tee box highlights both the cant of the fairway and the need for a left to right tee ball - just short of the greenside bunker in the distance is the collection area


This is a really tough decision for me.  As much as I love the 4th at CD, especially the green complex, I can't hit a fade for the life of me.  The fairway and green at KC are really cool and work well together...an easier fairway to hit would make the green over-the-top easy...a more difficult green would make the hole over-the-top hard.  The side-boards on the around the green are great.  The green makes this hole for me.  Kingsley takes this one.  ALL SQUARE

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE

[Mark Saltzman]

Josh is good at the hole by hole descriptions!  I agree with most everything he said except the final decision.

Did anyone else, upon seeing the fairway cut hollow short-left of 4 at CD, not wonder why the same was not done on the 1st?  I suppose the simply answer is they didn't want putts from above the hole running so far off the green, but this feature works perfectly at the 4th.

CD wins the hole,  KC 2UP

[Matthew Lloyd]

Some interesting info on #4 at Kingsley --- they are putting in a couple of new tee boxes down to the left that will provide an entirely new angle and probably make the hole a little longer from the tips as well.  For those of you who played in the event last month you probably noticed this of course.  

Like Josh, I love how close the #4 tee box is to the #3 green and there's no question that's one of the best hole transitions on the course.  But I will be curious to play the hole from the new tee boxes as well -- it will be a totally different shot and it might be easier to keep your tee shot from ending up in the right gulley with that blind approach shot, which I always seem to end up with no matter what type of drive I hit.

I believe the new tee boxes will be ready by next season.

One other side benefit of the new tee boxes will be the ability to hit to the #6 green as a par 3 and skip ahead if the need presents itself.

[Nick_Christopher]

One small point of difference with the description - I don't think of the #4 green at Kingsley as sloped from back to front - it to me plays as a double bunch bowl with a ton of cool hole options.  The banks all around create some really fun putting - especially in the back bowl.  If you under-club and have a monster putt to the back hole location. it is very reasonable to hit it up the bank and have it come stratight back down (and potentially make it) to a very short par putt.  The drive is a bit confounding becuse your aiming point can vary substantially depending on which side of the tee box the markers are set up on.

The 4th at CD has always been one of the toughest holes for me on the course.  It is easy to hit it through the fairway on the left, or come over the top and see it slice into the woods.  The approach requires precision to get on the right part of the green - and to avoid the possiblity of putting back into the swale on the left.  The cant of the fairway against the dog-leg right is a unique and cool feature, but for sake of fun and playaility - KC takes this one as well.

KC 2 up.

[Nick_Christopher]

Matt - as a side note, I like the par 3 from the #4 tee to the #6 green from the current tee locations!  Lots of fun holes to be found on both courses; also #5 tee over #4 green to #6 green at CD is a good one.

[Chris DeToro]

The new tees on #4 at Kingsley are going to be amazing.  Slightly OT, but I really like what they've been doing at the club lately between eliminating the left fairway on #17 and adding these new tee boxes.  I always find myself in the left gunch so a slightly different angle will help keep the ball playable.  

Any thoughts on the strategy of the approach shot into this green?  I'm starting to think the ideal shot is a low runner up the right side and using the sideboards to get the ball to the hole.

[Jason Thurman]

Round 4

Once again, it's a battle between savvy and moxie. The fourth at Crystal Downs is just so elegant. It sits beautifully on the land with a gentle reverse-camber fairway and that bunker on the inside of the right fairway is perhaps a bit odd looking, but also eye-catching. It's a perfect example of Pete Dye's favorite kind of hole - one that asks for opposing shot shapes on the tee shot and approach shot. The terrain can't match that of Kingsley's fourth for drama, but I might say that it has far superior golfing qualities. Those rolling humps in the fairway create varying awkward stances over multiple plays, while Kingsley's fourth tends to create one of two approach angles and stances for most reasonably well struck shots.

Of course, Kingsley's fourth is the more dramatic hole. The terrain borders on the edge of what's appropriate for golf, and when Kingsley is at its best it stays just inside the edge of that border. The fourth is a perfect example. My lone complaint is that it's a bit of a one-trick pony in my experience. As mentioned above, the tee shot tends to end up in one of two positions. The approach tends to funnel toward the green as well. There just isn't the same intricacy and variety as what you find on Crystal Downs' fourth.

I had every intention of giving this round to Kingsley when I began writing this post. The fourth isn't one of my favorites at Crystal Downs, and the fourth at Kingsley is such a great representation of the course in its best moments. And yet, as much as I want to give this one to the post-modern and ultra bold hole, and as many reasons as I have to rig the scorecard in Kingsley's favor, I just can't do it. The fourth at Crystal Downs is simply golf of the highest order, reliant not on flash but on pure mastery of routing on subdued but extraordinary terrain. It's a near knockdown in fact, but Kingsley is saved by the bell.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9

Running Total: CD 38, KC 38

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