[Terry Lavin]

So this is match play between a consensus Top 20 US course and an unranked but golfclubatlas-centric homer favorite. Back to playoff baseball.

[JC Jones]

So this is match play between a consensus Top 20 US course and an unranked but golfclubatlas-centric homer favorite. Back to playoff baseball.

Neither of which you've played.  Go back to watching AJ Pierzinski highlights. 

[Josh Tarble]

Terry,
That is an interesting comment....and I have thought about it that exact question since playing. I will address it with my personal opinion on the matter, but would like to save it until the conclusion of the match.

[Bill McKinley]

Excellent thread. I too was lucky enough to have just recently played both of these fine venues. I will try and add some comments as the thread progresses but in the good ole 10 round game I would give Crystal a 6-4 edge over Kingsley.

It also should be noted that my opinions are based off playing both courses in the same day. The conditions were quite soft but the weather overall was quite pleasent.

[David Kelly]

One of the worst things a fight manager can do is to put his young fighter into the ring against a clearly superior opponent.  I'd suggest putting Kingsley on the undercard against the likes of Arcadia Bluffs first.

[Terry Lavin]

One of the worst things a fight manager can do is to put his young fighter into the ring against a clearly superior opponent.  I'd suggest putting Kingsley on the undercard against the likes of Arcadia Bluffs first.

Maybe Lost Dunes? 

[Bill_McBride]

One of the worst things a fight manager can do is to put his young fighter into the ring against a clearly superior opponent.  I'd suggest putting Kingsley on the undercard against the likes of Arcadia Bluffs first.

That would be a walkover.   Talk about a dumb blonde.  AB was as disappointing a course as I've played in the past ten my ears.  Nice sunset from the porch though.  

[Terry Lavin]

So this is match play between a consensus Top 20 US course and an unranked but golfclubatlas-centric homer favorite. Back to playoff baseball.

Neither of which you've played.  Go back to watching AJ Pierzinski highlights. 

The Tigers are doing what they do best (gagging like toddlers), so I'll have to seek out Sean Hannity interviewing Ted Cruz, all-asshat-no-cattle blowhard...

[Peter Pallotta]

David M - it strikes me now (and I might as well say it now, cause I won't have anything else to contribute to the thread) that the 'typical Mackenzie' you describe holds true for much a the rest of CD's holes as well, as I remember them. After I played the holes, I always felt that, knowing what I'd then learned, there was no real reason I should've chalked up yet another bogie or double! They looked  harder than they actually were....the sad irony being that this appearance was enough to cause even more mistakes/missed shots from me than usual. A kind of self fulfilling prophecy.

Peter

[DMoriarty]

Peter,  I agree and think it somewhat true for the few other MacKenzie courses I've seen as well.  He wrote something along the lines of putting the golfer in a position where he would feel exhilarated by his successes, and that holes that looked harder than they played accomplished this, and I do think this is the case when the golfer has successes. But the situation you describe might be more common -- where the golfer psyches himself out and ends up kicking himself afterward.  Either way it is a pretty neat trick and I am not always sure how he does it.

[Peter Pallotta]

That should be a tag line around here - really a good definition of gca talent:

 "It's a pretty neat trick, and I am not always sure how he does it."

Peter

[Bart Bradley]

I have started to post on this thread several times but keep hesitating.  Even Mike Devries will tell you that Crystal is a tough match for any course.

I am not a member either place.  6 rounds Crystal, 22 rounds Kingsley.

The first hole at Kingsley is epic in appearance and fun to play.  Long hitters are given an extreme advantage (a theme unfortunately repeated on 17) if they can carry the center bunkers.  The issue for me is that I can see no real advantage to driving the ball left.  Strategy off the tee seems limited based upon one's length.  

The first hole at Crystal is breathtaking and a stern opening test.  Everyone must use strategy when approaching this green.  With a bit more width I suspect we all might rank it as one of the absolute greatest openers.  It certainly ranks high among long par 4 openers.

I give a slight edge to Crystal. 10-9

On hole two, Kingsley is a do or die tee shot.  Poorer players will nearly always make x if they miss the green.  It is a Great match play hole but after 22 rounds, I fail to see it as a strategic test.  In my opinion, it is a hole that is almost entirely about execution (tee shot and recovery shots). I like these type of holes from time to time, but can see where some may not

Despite some other comments about the 2nd hole being vanilla at CD, I do believe it lays beautifully on the  land.  I enjoy canted fairways and find they generally add some interest and thought to shaping both the tee shot and the approach.  I agree that amongst the group of 4s on both courses it is not a true standout and lacks huge strategic questions.

Overall, I give Kingsley the very slight edge on 2.  10-9 All square after 2.

Thanks for letting me participate...come on John Kirk, you are a proven pro at this format ;-)

Bart

[Bob_Garvelink]

Hole two goes to KC -  I just feel its a potential round breaker if you miss in the wrong spot and that alone makes it a great hole.

KC 1
CD 1

[Mark Saltzman]

Well, I guess I'm going to break the lovefest that has been the comparison of the first holes at Kingsley and Crystal Downs.

I think the 1st at Crystal Downs is an uninteresting opener.  Calling it one of the great first holes in golf is something I simply don't understand.  Now, the view over the front 9 from the first tee, and the epic excitement standing on the first tee I agree with, but neither of those things make the hole a great one.  We have a straightaway 460 yard par-4 played to a fairway that has been remarkably and arbitrarily narrowed.  I don't buy that there is any strategy from the first tee other than trying to find the fairway.  Yes, the green is severe.  Extremely so.  That being said, I don't think the repeated comments about golfers putting off the green is a hallmark of greatness.

Is the 1st at Kingsley great? Nah, not really.  But it's the clear winner in this battle.  Despite the visual distraction of the split-fairway, I can't imagine a situation when I'd ever play to the left side.  The varying fairway widths at 150 vs 75-100 yards from the green ensure that even those playing the hole as a three-shotter have to give thought on the second shot, and the open green front / false-front / ridge / bowled green edges mean that while the green is just as extreme as Crystal Downs' first green, approaches and recoveries need not always be defensive.

Kingsley 1UP

[Mark Saltzman]

In my opinion, it is a hole that is almost entirely about execution (tee shot and recovery shots). I like these type of holes from time to time, but can see where some may not

Bart, how does this comment not apply equally to CD #1?

[JC Jones]

Thank you for your thoughtful remarks and comments Bart and Mark.  I particularly like Mark's comments on all courses he's played because there are few on here who have played the sheer number of courses he has ranging from pedestrian to great.

As for the left side of Kingsley, imagine yourself as a higher handicapper who can only hit the ball 220-230 off the tee.  now ask yourself whether you'd want to try and carry your drive up that hill on the right side and add all that distance to the hole while also bringing the huge centerline bunkers in play. Jud Tigerman is a perfect example of why the left side of #1 is available.

As to long hitters having an advantage on #1 and #17, I'd argue they have a significant advantage on just about all 4's and 5's because of their length.  

[Mark Saltzman]

As Bart says, the second hole at Crystal Downs lays beautifully on the land, but (not to pick on Bart!) I don't think that necessarily makes it an interesting hole.  For the second hole in a row we have a strategy-less tee shot and an approach where the primary strategy is to not be above the hole.  Not mentioned thus far, and in my opinion the best single feature of the hole, is the kicker that sits short and right of the green, which must be negotiated by those hoping to run the ball onto the green.  Overall, though, vanilla (thanks JC for the term).

The second at Kingsley is fearsome.  I suppose a true fortress green offers no preferred miss, but I can say from experience (unfortunately) that missing short-right and long are equally disastrous.  That being said, golfers willing to play toward the centre of the green are given a sufficiently large target, and those that are foolish enough to play for 2 deserve the 6s they may walk away with.  

Kingsley 2UP

[Mark Saltzman]

As for the left side of Kingsley, imagine yourself as a higher handicapper who can only hit the ball 220-230 off the tee.  now ask yourself whether you'd want to try and carry your drive up that hill on the right side and add all that distance to the hole while also bringing the huge centerline bunkers in play. Jud Tigerman is a perfect example of why the left side of #1 is available.

JC, I agree and thought the same thing but couldn't be bothered to type it all out.  For a certain group the left side is the only option.  For another group the left side will never be the chosen option.  For the group you describe, those that can carry a tee shot ~200 yards, there will be some choice depending on their comfort that day (as well as varying conditions).  That can't make it a great split fairway hole?

[Steve Salmen]

This is like comparing Renaissance to Muirfield. A very good members course against one of the best courses in the world.

[Bill McKinley]

You mention the lack of strategy off the tee on the first two holes at CD as being a negative. Let me ask you, where is there a long par 4 in golf whose strategy isn't to try and hit it as long and as straight as possible? And what would widening the first fairway at Crystal do to increase strategy? Even if the fairway is wider you still want to hit it long and straight, right?

[Bill Seitz]

The first hole at Kingsley is epic in appearance and fun to play.  Long hitters are given an extreme advantage (a theme unfortunately repeated on 17) if they can carry the center bunkers.  The issue for me is that I can see no real advantage to driving the ball left.  Strategy off the tee seems limited based upon one's length.  

Bart, the far right tree on the left side of the fairway on #1 is gone (it had been dead for a while and was a bit of an eyesore), which makes the left side a much more viable option, especially for the shorter hitter who may not make the crest of the hill. The layup is a more direct shot, instead if a slinging hook.  Whether that makes the hole better is up to the individual. But as anyone who has walked Kingsley many times can tell you, the real advantage to driving the ball left is that you don't have to walk up the hill.  

[Howard Riefs]

As for the left side of Kingsley, imagine yourself as a higher handicapper who can only hit the ball 220-230 off the tee.  now ask yourself whether you'd want to try and carry your drive up that hill on the right side and add all that distance to the hole while also bringing the huge centerline bunkers in play. Jud Tigerman is a perfect example of why the left side of #1 is available.

Plus, for the shorter hitter who goes to the right side of the centerline doesn't reach the crest will likely be left with a blind shot and the ball below (lefty) or above (righty) their feet. Such is the typical second shot for me after a 230-240 yard drive. It's also why going to the left side may be a better option -- especially as the largest and far right tree that stuck out on the left side of the fairway was recently cut down because it was dead.

[Jason Thurman]

But as anyone who has walked Kingsley many times can tell you, the real advantage to driving the ball left is that you don't have to walk up the hill.  

Truth. But it should be mentioned that for being on such an expansive property, Kingsley is a surprisingly short walk. I track the distance of every round I play since I get paid $300 a year to wear a pedometer. Kingsley is no longer a walk than my 6500 yard home course built in the '20s. That's pretty rare for a modern course, especially one as big and wide as Kingsley.

Of course, it's a pretty intense 7 miles (including every step during the round for me; please don't misinterpret this as a straight from tee-to-green on every hole measurement). But still, 7 miles isn't really very long at all compared to most courses.

[Nick_Christopher]

As a means to establish some credibility, I'll start by saying that I have been a member at Kingsley since it opened, and grew up caddying and working at Crystal Downs.  I have played both countless times, and both are all-world; which should contribute to a very lively discussion!

Since CD is a bit under-represented thus far, I'll start on that side of the fence.  The first two holes at the Downs are defined by the prevailing wind of the day and the difficulty of the greens.  If the wind is blowing in your face on #2, it can be a very stern test; especially giving consideration to the fact that the green is above the tee box - one of the great optical illusions on the course!  Also, the 2nd green has massive internal contours that can lead to daunting second putts (or chips!).  The slope of the first is well documented, but the 2nd is no walk in the park.

The wind direction is so significant that one member (formerly a top Sr. Am player) suggested changing par each day of the two holes depending on which way the wind was blowing that day!

[Jim Nugent]

As a means to establish some credibility, I'll start by saying that I have been a member at Kingsley since it opened, and grew up caddying and working at Crystal Downs.  I have played both countless times, and both are all-world; which should contribute to a very lively discussion!

So Nick, what's your score after two? 

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