[Bill Seitz]

While I'm at it, from my perspective, I'd have a hard time criticizing the strategy or lack thereof of a place like CD, which I've only played once.  This is especially true in comparison to a place like Kingsley, which I've played probably about 75 times now, and where various strategies are STILL revealing themselves to me.  My thought process on #7 changes almost every time I play it, and it's a hole I'll approach completely differently depending on the wind.  

And while I'm talking about the wind, I think some of the real genius in the routing at Kingsley is how the course plays in different winds.  #s 1 and 17 play completely differently when the wind is out of the north than they do when the wind is out of the south, and the great thing is that because they're in opposite directions, I know when I stand on the first tee that if #1 is playing easy, I'm going to have a tough time getting over the hill on 17, and they really balance each other well.  I also know that I'll get a big advantage on 14, but 15 is going to be a bitch.  It's one of the few courses I've played that plays completely differently in opposite winds, while still  playing to almost exactly the same difficulty.  I don't think the course plays any harder in one wind than another, it just changes which holes play easier and which play harder.  I can't think of many courses I've played where that's the case.

OK, end of off topic stuff.  

[John Kirk]

I've played Crystal Downs four times and Kingsley dozens of times, so I may chime in every three holes with match play opinions, if that is alright.

[Josh Tarble]

Bill (and other Kingsley members),

You don't have to say which you prefer, but I would love if you presented your thoughts on your home course.  It is a great place and for this, more opinions are always better (even if they are biased).

I also agree with Chris though on #1.  If you don't carry the bunkers, the second shot is relatively straightforward.  Sure, attacking further up the hill or laying back for a full shot but it's still a long iron or wood to a pretty wide fairway.  Carrying the center bunker complex is the ideal play for those who can and it is the crux of the hole.



John,
I would love to hear your thoughts.  I only played CD once, so it would be great to have someone who has played multiple times.

[Bob_Garvelink]

I have been lucky enough to play Kingsley but I have not had the chance to play CD.  What the heck......I'm gonna join anyway.  This is a tough call as both holes are amazing but in my opinion the views from hole # 1 at CD gives it a slight edge.  I love the fact that you can see many of the upcoming holes and the water.  KC # 1 is an all time favorite of mine and it's in my top 5 best holes I have played so it deserves props as well.

[Tom_Doak]

If this exercise is going to be done by a bunch of guys who are huge fans [or members] of Kingsley, most of whom have only played Crystal Downs once or twice, I'd suggest that probably isn't the fairest basis for comparison.  But, I will be accused of bias myself -- plus I'm on vacation with my wife this week -- so I will refrain from participating in the hole by hole analysis.  At least I've played Kingsley more than once.

For the record, I had them about even through four, but after Crystal Downs wins every hole from the 5th through the 9th, I think it would be pretty hard for Kingsley to come back.

[JC Jones]

If this exercise is going to be done by a bunch of guys who are huge fans [or members] of Kingsley, most of whom have only played Crystal Downs once or twice, I'd suggest that probably isn't the fairest basis for comparison.  But, I will be accused of bias myself -- plus I'm on vacation with my wife this week -- so I will refrain from participating in the hole by hole analysis.  At least I've played Kingsley more than once.

For the record, I had them about even through four, but after Crystal Downs wins every hole from the 5th through the 9th, I think it would be pretty hard for Kingsley to come back.

I really hope that Josh, Jason and everyone else continues with the thread despite this attempt to squash the discussion.  

It's an age old GCA.com tactic: first tell someone they shouldn't discuss a course if they haven't played it; second tell someone they shouldn't discuss a course if they haven't played it multiple times in multiple wind directions; lastly, tell someone they shouldn't discuss a course if they haven't played as many great courses as you have.

[Tom_Doak]

JC:  I'm making no attempt to quash the discussion.  I will really enjoy getting home in a couple of weeks and seeing which of you guys has made the funniest "homer" statement of the group.

However, if guys like Bill Seitz have played Kingsley 75 times and Crystal Downs ONCE, I have a hard time believing that will result in a balanced comparison.  I can remember what I thought of Kingsley when I had played it only once, and I'm glad I didn't put it in print at that time.

[Bill Seitz]

I really hope that Josh, Jason and everyone else continues with the thread despite this attempt to squash the discussion.  

It's an age old GCA.com tactic: first tell someone they shouldn't discuss a course if they haven't played it; second tell someone they shouldn't discuss a course if they haven't played it multiple times in multiple wind directions; lastly, tell someone they shouldn't discuss a course if they haven't played as many great courses as you have.

Not trying to speak for Tom, but I think it will be a fun discussion to read.  I just don't feel I can be particularly objective, nor am I informed enough about one of the courses relative to the other.  I think it will be fun to read impressions from guys like Josh and Jason who haven't played either course all that much, or from guys who have played both courses quite a bit.  I really look forward to reading it, just probably won't participate much (famous last words, of course).

Edited to add:

However, if guys like Bill Seitz have played Kingsley 75 times and Crystal Downs ONCE, I have a hard time believing that will result in a balanced comparison.

Couldn't have said it much better myself. 

[Josh Tarble]

After the frighteningly good first on both courses....we now trek upward to the second tee.  With the honors:

Crystal Downs #2 - 425 yards - Par 4
After getting slapped in the face by the first (or slapping it in the face  ) the player is confronted with what appeared to me as a master-class in subtlety.  The fairway falls of from right to left, with plenty of room to swing away.  However, it appeared to me that the right side of fairway was position a. because of a clearer view of the green and a better chance to avoid the big greenside bunker left.  However, I think left may result in a flatter lie, albeit perhaps a bit less revealing approach.  The green is another delight, sloping significantly from back right to left front, a slight false front and a bit of bowl in the middle.  I thought the green was excellent and seemed very severe to me...resulting in my first three putt of the day.  

Kyle's photo of the second, taken from left and closer to the green from the tee, showing the cant of the fairway and the severe slope of the green.



Kingsley Club #2 - 161 yards - Par 3
Walking up from the green of #1 to the tee of #2 by myself, I almost let out a gasp at the shocking difference in your view.  #1 green is almost tunnel like and walking up, into the beautiful expanse of those 5 holes on the front...truly awesome.  However you better stop admiring the view, because #2 is an ass kicker.  Don't miss left, don't miss right, don't miss long.  From what I could discern, short middle is the only place you could really miss and I only saw that by accident    The green is very severe and surrounded by bunkers and a deep runoff right.  In the wind, this hole is just brutal.  All that being said, I really enjoyed the hole...it's a tiny green, but at only 160 yards, it should be a small target.  After 5 plays in a bunch of different wind conditions, I have no idea how to play it...I definitely know a big slinging draw is not the play.

Photo of the second from what appears to be a bit left of the red tees - this doesn't show the significant drop off right or even accentuate how severe the drop off is left - a very tiny target



I will surely get crucified for this, but in my eyes, this isn't that close of a match.  The second at CD is a butt kicker, but through subtlety and positioning, the second at KC, while an excellent hole and it really sets the tone for the round, is almost a hit and hope type hole. The key there is managing your misses, the margin between a 2 and an X is too slim for my personal taste.  Crystal Downs 2 UP.

Running Score
#1 - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 - Crystal Downs - 2 UP

[DMoriarty]

I've played both courses a few rounds, but it has been a long while and so I am looking forward to refreshing my memory by following the descriptions and photos. So far those scoring are actually discussing the relative merits of the golf holes, which is much better than a stream of 'I really liked x but really really liked y'.  Thanks for your efforts.  
___________________________

Peter P,

It is funny but I recall having the exact same impression on the first tee at Crystal Downs as you did.  Even though it is downhill the distance looked really intimidating, as if I was looking at a golf green miles away.  But it didn't seem to play nearly as long as I had feared.   That to me is typical of MacKenzie.  It looks hard and strikes fear into the golfer, but doesn't turn out to be a bad as one fears.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Kingsley 2 up for me.
Quite simply one of the finest short par threes in the world versus whilst a good par four not one of the strongest on CD.

[JC Jones]

I will really enjoy getting home in a couple of weeks and seeing which of you guys has made the funniest "homer" statement of the group.

This will probably still be the funniest "homer" (anti-homer) statement on the thread.    

[Jason Thurman]

Per Tom's post, I'm happy to announce that I played both courses within a few days of each other and have no more than 3 days' experience on either, and am also not a member of either. I am a total idiot when it comes to both of them, and I therefore trust myself to be completely objective and completely lacking astuteness.

Round 2

This is like a matchup between the pure power of Joe Frazier (Crystal Downs 2nd) and the frustrating defense of Chris Byrd (Kingsley's 2nd). If Frazier can land a punch, Byrd will drop. But how in the hell do you land a punch to the second at Kingsley?

Neither hole is high on nuance in my completely uninformed opinion. The second at Crystal is a long, tough par 4. It plays uphill and straight through a corridor fraught with trouble. There's a certain satisfaction to be gained from striking solid shots against the far more intimate backdrop of this hole compared to that of the first, and the ideal approach is almost certainly from the left side of the fairway to another green that slides right-to-left. But it's a fairly straightforward hole, particularly by the standards of this fight. Then again, my evaluation sees the tactics as almost opposite of those seen by the other JT, so perhaps there's more to this hole than is readily apparent.

The second at Kingsley is also straightforward. The strategy? Hit a perfect shot or scramble your ass off. The view from the tee is Kingsley's equivalent of the first tee view at Crystal, with the weaving and tumbling front nine unfolding from the hub of its routing crossovers and the terrain of Kingsley revealing itself for the first time. The hole is as tough as described - short, dicey, and fraught with hazards. You can miss short of the green or long of the pin, but you better hit it on the correct line.

On my scorecard, Crystal's second threw punch after punch and dominated the round's offense, but it became flustered by the time the final 30 seconds rolled around with just how damn tough to hit the seemingly easy target of Kingsley's second is. I believe Josh has the right evaluation in match play. #2 at Crystal Downs is a better hole. But in a boxing match, the frustration created by Kingsley's second is too much for the second at Crystal to overcome. Defense dictates the round, and a few savvy combos from Kingsley's little one is enough to carry the card.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9

Running Total: CD 19, KC 19

[DMoriarty]

Oh no . . really?   I thought this was matchplay. 

[JC Jones]

Kingsley #2 - This is an incredible short par 3.  It's hard to get past the severity but I think the fact that it plays 160 at the longest and 135ish for the blues means that I'm approaching (depending on the wind) with a light 8 or a PW, justifies the severity.  The miss left is severe, in my opinion, the most severe.  The miss right is only severe if your ball gets hung up in the long grass and doesn't make it into the bunker.  From the bunker, one should be able to get up onto the green and 2 putt.  I think #2 has an underrated green because of what is around it.  There is a lot more subtlety on that green than meets the eye.  Again, especially in the middle of the green along the "spine."

Crystal Downs #2 - This is, in my opinion, the most vanilla hole on a golf course that is anything but vanilla.  Yes, the green is severely pitched but as you can see in the picture, the hole has little else as far as interest.  There is a slight cant to the fairway coming down from the 1st tee but I have found the approach similar from both sides of the fairway and the fairway bunkering to offer little interest.  There just isn't much to distinguish that par 4 from any other run-of-the-mill par 4 and it is the weakest on the course.

Running Score

#1 - Draw - Even
#2 - Kingsley - KC 1 up

[Jud_T]

I pretty much concur with JC on this one.  Granted I've played Kingsley 100-1 vs. CD, but #2 was one of the least memorable at CD from my time there. (fyi- I can only think of 1 person on this board whose played both courses sufficiently to truly go really in-depth on each hole, and he rarely posts.)   A good hole vs. a great hole.  #2 at Kingsley is truly a great par 3.  Yes the strategy is back middle of the green on both the first and second shots unless your opponent stuffs it in tight, but it's the fine execution of those shots, knowing what trouble lurks, that makes success so sweet and failure so painful (yes Josh, that's BACK middle.  There's VERY little room to layup short).  I also agree that there are several subtle breaks on that green that are overshadowed by all the trouble.  Even after hitting the green, 2-putting isn't a lock.  Often times one hits what is seemingly a very good putt only to find onesself with a testy 3-5 footer left.  I can think of fewer par 3's with such a pucker factor where one can just as easily get a 2 or an X (I once took a 10 on the hole in a club medal competition and walked to the 3rd tee as if I'd just stepped on a land mine.  Why KC ever has Medal tournaments for members is perhaps best left for another thread!).  The wind plays havoc on this hole, often pushing the ball towards the real trouble on the left.  Let's not forget that our fearless leader calls this hole "Perhaps the finest short one-shotter built since World War II".  One of the best par 4's on the course...

Running Total:

#1  CD  
#2  KC  

All Square

[Matthew Lloyd]

Thanks to Josh for starting this great thread.  I've probably played Kingsley a hundred times and have only had the good fortune to play Crystal Downs once, so this has been a great refresher on CD and it almost feels like I'm getting to play it again vicariously.  Given the disparity in how often I've played Kingsley v. CD, I don't feel qualified to analyze which course is better on any particular hole.  Though I will say that for PURE ENTERTAINMENT VALUE I do think #2 at Kingsley is tough to beat.  The feeling of walking to the tee on both #2 and #9 is pure anticipation and excitement knowing your entire round can blow up with one bad swing or one unlucky bounce. Tough to beat that type of suspense, especially so early in a round.

And given how much experience I have in getting my ass kicked by this hole at Kingsley I'll weigh in with some thoughts...

A few other posters have commented on how you're looking at a 2 or an X on this hole depending on where your tee shot lands.  This is definitely true.  Going left into the high grass destroys your round.  Left into the bunkers isn't much better.  Right in the rough is a disaster.  Right in the bunker slightly better.  

I have learned the hard way that the best way to play this hole (at least for me personally as a slightly above-average golfer) is to hit it long towards the widest part of the green, regardless of pin position.  The back bunkers aren't that punitive and if you're content to play for a par or (at worst) a tap-in 4, this is probably your best bet.  Even if the pin is at the front, it's still a relatively easy 2 putt from the back of the green.  

This may be a gutless strategy that only David Simms (Don Johnson in "Tin Cup") could appreciate, but it will help you avoid a colossal meltdown that destroys your round on just the 2nd hole.

[Jason Thurman]

Oh no . . really?   I thought this was matchplay. 

I score however I want to score. Insert mom/sister joke here.

Seriously though, a boxing scorecard can always go down to the last hole. I'm worried that a match between these two would get pretty one-sided and be over for me after 13 or 14 holes, eliminating the opportunity to discuss two really good courses in more depth.

[Howard Riefs]

Seriously though, a boxing scorecard can always go down to the last hole. I'm worried that a match between these two would get pretty one-sided and be over for me after 13 or 14 holes, eliminating the opportunity to discuss two really good courses in more depth.

Generous of you to play rope-a-dope to keep Crystal Downs in the fight.

[Tim Bert]

Now that I realize there is to be a prize for most absurd homer comment, I will provide a few insights that I might have previously withheld. Such as the fact that I think #2 at Kingsley is the best front nine par 3 on either of these courses.  It is a wonderful match play hole. It is a hole that I too can birdie (unlike #1) and I can and do frequently pick up. It is a disaster or instant glory waiting to happen. I enjoy it immensely.

I have the match all square through 2.

[DMoriarty]

Seriously though, a boxing scorecard can always go down to the last hole. I'm worried that a match between these two would get pretty one-sided and be over for me after 13 or 14 holes, eliminating the opportunity to discuss two really good courses in more depth.

Generous of you to play rope-a-dope to keep Crystal Downs in the fight.

I enjoyed Kingsley very much, but frankly I'd not even have put it in the same weight class as Crystal Downs.

[JC Jones]

Seriously though, a boxing scorecard can always go down to the last hole. I'm worried that a match between these two would get pretty one-sided and be over for me after 13 or 14 holes, eliminating the opportunity to discuss two really good courses in more depth.

Generous of you to play rope-a-dope to keep Crystal Downs in the fight.

I enjoyed Kingsley very much, but frankly I'd not even have put it in the same weight class as Crystal Downs.

You mentioned earlier how it was nice to have some rationale behind these types of statements, lets see it?  Also, I'm pretty sure Howard was being facetious.

I'd also like to hear more from Mark Saltzman.

[Howard Riefs]

Seriously though, a boxing scorecard can always go down to the last hole. I'm worried that a match between these two would get pretty one-sided and be over for me after 13 or 14 holes, eliminating the opportunity to discuss two really good courses in more depth.

Generous of you to play rope-a-dope to keep Crystal Downs in the fight.

I enjoyed Kingsley very much, but frankly I'd not even have put it in the same weight class as Crystal Downs.

You mentioned earlier how it was nice to have some rationale behind these types of statements, lets see it?  Also, I'm pretty sure Howard was being facetious.

Indeed.

[Bill_McBride]

Seriously though, a boxing scorecard can always go down to the last hole. I'm worried that a match between these two would get pretty one-sided and be over for me after 13 or 14 holes, eliminating the opportunity to discuss two really good courses in more depth.

Generous of you to play rope-a-dope to keep Crystal Downs in the fight.

I enjoyed Kingsley very much, but frankly I'd not even have put it in the same weight class as Crystal Downs.

Not sure I buy that, as Kingsley is pretty obviously derivative of Crystal Downs, which makes sense given Mike DeVries' pedigree. 

[DMoriarty]

JC,

I was being somewhat facetious as well.  

While my definite preference was for CD, it has been a long while and it may not be fair for me to get into much of a critique of Kingsley because I don't recall all the details and because the course was very new when I played it and I think they were planning on changing some things.   Also, I don't know that getting into an overall critique at this point fits with the spirit of the thread.  Perhaps such a critique might be better held until the end?

Sticking with the match, the highlight of the 2nd hole at Kingsley for me was how a short tee shot could run all the way down to the bottom of the huge depression right, and that it was still playable from down there. Unique on a short par three, and an unusual and fun recovery opportunity regardless of the resulting score.  I'd contrast this with the 9th hole, which offered pretty much no chance of recovery from most misses.  The former allowed the golfer to keep golfing his ball and keep hitting fun shots, the latter just seemed masochistic.

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