[Ted Sturges]

A quick question regarding the 9th at CD. How small is that target up on the hill? I'm assuming the included photo distorts the scale of the hole a bit. It looks like just a little tug to the left can lead to very bad things. Of course, it's not like it is going up against an uber-accomodating hole in KC #9.

Matt,

You are correct in that if you tug one left on the 9th at CD very bad things can happen.  Standing on that tee, it doesn't look like a large target, and it isn't.  I wouldn't guestimate the square footage of the putting green, but whatever it is, it plays even smaller due to how narrow the green is.  And when the wind is blowing...

TS

[Mac Plumart]

Hole 1...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 2...Kingsley 10-7 (one of the best par 3's in the world, IMO.  And 2 at The Downs didn't do it for me)
Hole 3...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 4...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 5...Crystal 10-9
Hole 6...Crystal 10-8
Hole 7...Crystal 10-8
Hole 8...Crystal 10-8
Hole 9...Kingsley 10-9 (I thought 9 at Kingsley was a truly great member's course par 3)

At the turn...

Kingsley 83; Crystal 83.  BOOM!!!

Hole 10...Push

[Josh Tarble]

Hole #11.  As good as the front nine at Crystal Downs is, I really believe the back nine at Kingsley is of it's equal.  The stretch from 11-16 contains some truly world class holes.  This match is about to get really interesting.

Crystal Downs #11 - 196 yards - Par 3
A gorgeous hole, helping usher the golfer from the open "prairie" feel of the front nine into the "walk in the woods" feel of the back nine.  The way the bunkers are shaped into the hillside is a work of art.  A very beautiful hole, and none of it really matters except the green.  I don't think any amount of description can accurately prepare the golfer for the green at #11.  We have a green that slopes proabably 8 feet from back to front at my home club - but it's about a 60 yard long green.  I would guess #11 slopes back to front about 8 feet in probably half the distance.  The real killer is the ridge about 10 paces onto the green.  Anything above the hole there has zero chance of even staying on the green.  The only strategy on this hole is stay below the pin.  I was fortunate to hit a great shot to about 6 feet and calmly proceeded to lag my putt to 2 feet and make the testing slider for a par.  I think this is the one green that approaches "goofy golf" on the course.  And I wouldn't change anything about it ever!  I loved it but it is equal parts luck and skill getting down on this one.

Clearly can see the change in environment from the first 10 to the next 7 holes - on the ground this feels much more open...this photo makes it look a bit narrow, which I did not notice at all standing on the tee


Here you can almost make out the ridge just on the green.


Kingsley Club #11 - 180 yards - Par 3
Maybe I have built up this hole since playing it...maybe I just saw a few things that weren't there...or maybe it is a really overlooked hole at Kingsley Club, because this was my second favorite par 3 on the course.  I was just really impressed with this one. What seems like another transition hole is at the same time forgiving and severe.  Many options exist on how to play this hole, but if you want a 2 (or even 3) you're going to have to make solid swings.  I found that with the proper shot type, you could take a bit more lofted of a club and bounce one onto or at least very close from the left side.  Really taking the bunker and drop off out of the hole.  Or you can take a bit more club and go right at the pin, but this brings the bunkers short and long into play, as well as the drop off right.  The green is a good one, with a slight bowl shape on the left, steep drop off right and serious tier long and right.  Back right pin position is very tough, but I saw a 2 putt par and up and downs from long left and short right, so it's not impossible.  Like I said, maybe I built this hole up in my head post-playing too much, but I think it's a great hole and a really fun to play.

A good look from the shortest tee boxes - a great looking, understated golf hole


In my eyes, this match isn't too close.  Even though CD #11 is a great hole, the green speeds there are just too fast for it to be an excellent hole.  If I knocked KC #2 for being a razor's edge margin, I can't overlook it at CD #11.  If you're above the hole, you might as well write down a 5 and move on.  Maybe I'm wrong though, I'd love to hear more opinions on it.  KC #11 though is well deserving of a victory here.  Not only are you hitting a long iron (potentially your first in many holes, right Bart  ) but there are several options that all may result in a good score with proper execution. Crystal Downs 3 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#9 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#10 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#11 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP

[Matthew Lloyd]

Really love the analysis here on KC #11.  I've always found this to be an underrated hole.  When the pin is on the top of that ridge (as in the photograph) it's near impossible and you're damn lucky to get out of there with a par.  Even with some of the other more forgiving pin placements (such as the front left) it's still a very hard hole to birdie.  To the eye it looks less intimidating than #5 or #16 but I think it plays harder.  In my experience it's not a hole that frequently results in anything worse than a 4, but never better than a 3 either.  But then again, I'm a very average player, so maybe I just don't have the game to master this one.  

Despite my love for KC #11, I'll give a very slight edge to CD on this one.  The optical illusion with the shot involving the uphill nature of the hole tricked me despite the fact that I was lectured about this for at least 7 holes in advance.  Yet I still didn't believe it upon reaching the tee box, and not even when I finished the hole.  Not sure if that is stubbornness or plain old bad golf, but this hole had me fooled.  And I loved the punitive nature of the green.  I deserved to have my ass kicked after failing to heed the multiple warnings.

[Bart Bradley]

Behind a lot so quick update

In my view neither 9th hole is optimal ...9 Kingsley is bold, cool architecture but a bit too severe for my taste.  When the greens are firm and fast there are positions from which there is no safe play despite objections to the contrary.  9 at Crystal lacks the grandeur and land interest of the other front nine holes.  I really can't decide so PUSH

10 at Crystal is just a bit too downhill off the tee for my tastes.  The ideal angle is unfortunately right rough.  Great green that doesn't quite work at high green speeds.  10 at Kingsley is a fun fairly simple but elegant hole.  Clear victory for Kingsley, 10-9.  Total Crystal up 4 and 7 points.

11 is another green at Crystal that is terrific but can be unplayable at high green speeds.  That is a shame because it is architecturally interesting and rich.  11 at Kingsley requires a very precise shot...another hole that is elegant and simple.  I like them both.  PUSh.

Bart

[Chris DeToro]

I'm torn on this one--both are great holes.  Unfortunately my memory of the 11th at the Downs is of a lengthy discussion of the hidden elevation from tee to green and multiple trips to and fro when all I wanted to do was hit the ball and learn for myself even if I came up a club short.  

But Kingsley's 11th does win out for me.  After playing 10 where you have some space and a short-ish iron to the green, you really have to concentrate on 11 tee because despite its benign appearance, there is potential for disaster everywhere

[Howard Riefs]

#9 has already been well discussed at length. A miss into one of the bunkers in the ‘elbow’ isn’t too bad; in fact, it’s an oft occurrence should a tee shot via the west tee to the nearby lobe land too high on the slope left of the green and gather speed as it rolls down.  

South tee


West tee (view from blue tee)


View from clubhouse




To Josh’s point, #10 has certainly grown on me through multiple plays. I never played the first iteration of the hole when it featured trees between #10 and #18 fairway, but I do appreciate its openness.

The 10th at Kingsley is a pretty straightforward affair.  From the tips it's a pretty stout hole, but from either tee it didn't appear either the left or right side was preferred.

Actually, for the longer hitter, there is a distinct advantage of playing up the right side of the fairway; there’s a speed slot just past the right bunker that will propel a drive forward another 20+ yards. Coming off #9 green with its wild contour, it would initially seem that #10 green is a breather. But there’s a great deal of movement, particularly back right, and it’s one of the best greens on the course.  







The first time I played #11, the pin was up front in an innocuous spot (like below) and it seemed like a simple connector hole. With multiple plays with different winds and pin positions, I’ve appreciated #11 more. When the pin is back right, the play is to the center of the green and get out of there with a two putt. A miss to the left of the green is quite manageable up and down to most pin locations. A miss right? Just avoid more than a bogey.

[Josh Tarble]

Great photos as usual Howard! The second shot of 9 is especially cool.

[Matthew Lloyd]

These photos are amazing.  And great timing on your trip.  My parents just went up to Traverse City today and they encountered sleet the entire way and possible snow this week!!! Season is clearly coming to an end...

[Chris DeToro]

That is an amazing shot of number 9.  It looks so peaceful...

[Jud_T]

Catching up:

#8:  this is one is really tough for me as Kingsley #8 is one of my favorite holes on the course and a most inscrutable, wonderful green.  I'd like to take everyone bitching about getting up and down on 2 & 9 out short or right of the 8th green with a bucket of balls and a loaded pistola.  However, CD #8 is one of the best par 5's I've ever seen or played on the planet.

Crystal wins the hole

CD 3 Up

#9:  As mentioned 2 is the more controversial and difficult hole, but this is a true original.  I will say that personally I think it's a much better hole from the west tee to any flag than from the south tee, but perhaps that's a lefty fighting a pull speaking.  Anything from an ace to an X is a legitimate possibility.  I'm not sure I've seen a hole without water or OB where failure to properly show humility and take your medicine is comparable to banging your bloody head against a wall quite like this one.  As Bill mentioned, one of the most fun shots on the course, or anywhere for that matter, is a lob wedge from the bunkers in the elbow to a pin in the bowl.  The true greatness of this hole comes via my then 12 year old son, who after playing in a charity event with me wanted to go back out at dusk with a bucket of balls to the west tee and hit till he holed one.

Kingsley win

CD 2 Up at the turn

10 and 11 are both a push for me.  10 at both courses are long difficult par 4's that are good holes in and of themselves but are overshadowed by the greatness and drama elsewhere.  11 at Kingsley is underrated IMO and a hole that grows on you.  The initial impression is of a simple connector hole to get you into the wooded section of the course, but it's a very good and deceptively difficult green with winds that often swirl as they come off the open part of the course and into the woods.  11 at CD might well be the better hole on the ground, but the speed at which they insist on running the greens renders it Happy Gilmore Clown's Mouth material, which is really a tragedy for such a great green.

CD still 2 Up through 11

[Mac Plumart]

Hole 11 is a defining moment in this match to me. But first off, is this a boxing match or a match play golf event?

Crystal's maintenance (green speeds vs contours) on this green ruin this hole in my opinon, if this was a boxing match this would be the end of the fight. Game over Kingsley wins.

But if this is a match play event, or we just want to see the rest of the hole by hole match ups, Kingsley wins 10-6.  

[Josh Tarble]

Mac, this is a "judge however you want because all 18 holes are great" match.

[Nick_Christopher]

Catching up during a busy work week -- I'll offer in response to Jason Thurman's question regarding the routing on #8 at CD that there was a 9 hole golf course on the property before Mac Routed CD.  An original teeing area can still be found on the top of the hill on the left side.  Pretty cool feature, and if your ball stops there, very fortuitous outcome.  But perhaps #8 was already a green employed from there or some other spot.

#9 at CD is a great return to where you started on the front.  The windswept green can be more exposed than the tee box which can provide some additional deception.  The green is severely sloped and it takes some time to get used to hitting putts high enough.

KC #8 is a great shortish par 4.  I strongly prefer the approach from the left and think it sets up a very good risik/reward dilemma given how narrow the fairway is on that side.  However, #8 at CD is all - world.

KC #9 is fun every time.  Multiple options, angles, etc. make for a great hole on a members' course.

After 9 holes, CD is 1 up

[Josh Tarble]

Kingsley Club #12 - 455 yards - Par 4

A beautiful hole from the tee and the only bunkerless hole at Kingsley.  Everything flows from right to left off of the hilside. Big hitters must play out over the encroaching hill to make sure the ball stays in the fairway.  This green is another really good one, perhaps the best on the course in my opinion.  It is simultaneously a punch bowl and repelling in nature.  It is ideally approached from the right side, which is guarded by the severe slopes of the fairway.  From the left side, the most common angle of approach, you must carry the left side to avoid a bad kick right of the green.  There is a sharp but small fall off right, which is a really cool feature.  I actually found the back pin position the easiest to get to, with the front a bit tougher.  The green itself is flat-iiish, but a bunch of smaller contours which make birdies difficult.  A hole that is a birdie opportunity with a couple well-executed shots, but few birdies actually happen.

Beautiful view from the tee, framed nicely by the trees on each side of the tee box


Just short of the driving zone, showcasing the serious right to left movement of the fairway


Crystal Downs #12 - 430 yards - Par 4
Another tee ball at the Downs that bends from left to right - and another tee ball which really did not to bit my hard draw swing   From the tee box, the big birch tree looks like it should be the target, but is very much in play and is actually left of the ideal line.  Anything right of the tree should be decent and in the fairway.  After the tee ball, this hole is again guarded by another excellent green complex.  The green has a bit of a false front as well as slopes away from the player towards the rear of the green.  The bunkers on the right are a pretty cool example of vegetation growth, with the trees growing in through the bunker - I'm sure this wasn't original but I thought it was cool.  The green was excellent and very difficult to get a longer shot close because of the front to back slope.

Here you can see the left to right nature of the hole - it also shows the small (apple?) trees which in my opinion should be considered for removal as they are most definitely in play and too small to allow recovery shots from under the limbs


A decent view of the green complex, showing the small false front - this is one of the more subtle greens at CD and is ideally suited for the ground it occupies


Another close match, I really liked the green complexes on both holes - they are two of the less-bold on the course, perfectly fit the land, and the holes are better off for it.  I am going to give this one to Kingsley as I liked the tee ball better and think the little trees left of the hole did not fit the rest of the hole and course at Crystal.  Kingsley Club +1 - Crystal Downs 2 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#9 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#10 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#11 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#12 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP

[Matthew Lloyd]

I'd also give KC #12 the nod here for its deceptively impossible green.  I have also found the back pin placement to be the easiest to manage.  The fairway pushing tee shots over to the far left, making for a much more difficult approach, is another great feature that you pointed out.  I know I can't be the only one who usually ends up in the hillside by trying to cut off way too much of the corner in trying to stay on the right side.  And this is a tricky green to make putts on.  Not a particular hard to green to 2-putt, but if you're looking at a birdie putt or a decent length par save you could be in trouble.

One other random note: playing this hole down the 13th fairway in the opposite direction isn't the worst outcome.  If you really hit a god-awful tee shot and end up there (yes, I've done that twice) it's much better than being stuck in the hillside, so if you're going to miss right, REALLY miss right.  

[Matthew Lloyd]

The picture below provides another angle of the green at Kingsley #12 from the back...

[Matthew Lloyd]

Well, that attachment didn't work.  Apparently I'm more technologically challenged than I realized...

[Mike Hendren]

Does anyone find the 7th and 12th at Kingsley totally incongruent with the balance of that fine course?

Arguably, both are shoe-horned against the boundary with relatively constricted landing zones from the tee, unextractable hay to the right and elevated tees that give the ball a little longer opportunity to wander.   A real good opportunity to lose a ball and be hitting 3 from the tee when playing by the rules.  Or is that just for us chumps?

Just wondering.

Bogey  

[BHoover]

Does anyone find the 7th and 12th at Kingsley totally incongruent with the balance of that fine course?

Arguably, both are shoe-horned against the boundary with relatively constricted landing zones from the tee, unextractable hay to the right and elevated tees that give the ball a little longer opportunity to wander.   A real good opportunity to lose a ball and be hitting 3 from the tee when playing by the rules.  Or is that just for us chumps?

Just wondering.

Bogey  

I suppose I can see that on the 7th, especially seeing as how I found myself up on that hillside a few times.  That tee shot just didn't fit my eye too well.  I like the hole better from the red tee.  But I didn't find the 12th to be a restricted landing zone off the tee.  I think that the ideal play might be to shape a fade off the tee into the fairway, but I think there is plenty of area to play to in the fairway.

[Mike Hendren]

Brian, I am not familiar with this so-called "shaping."  No need to elaborate, however.

[BHoover]

Brian, I am not familiar with this so-called "shaping."  No need to elaborate, however.

I'm not saying that I can pull it off, but I think that's the shot on the 12th.  Instead, I just tried to hit my normal draw and hoped it held the fairway.

[Zack Molnar]

Finally caught up with this awesome thread.

Bogey,

While I think the 12th looks narrow from the tee, the downhill tee shot and forward kick received from the fairway allow you to hit less club from the tee, eliminating some of the risk of going through the fairway on the left. This shorter club also should allow you to have more control(theoretically) and therefore not give your ball as much opportunity to wander, as you so eloquently put.

Also, I absolutely love this green. I was completely fooled on a putt from the front to a middle pin, thinking it was for sure downhill, and the put came up 3 feet short since it was instead uphill. The green site is also so natural. I have not had the opportunity to play any shots from right of the green(several shots blown over the green dont warrant discussion), but it seems like an area from which a myriad of shots could be played to nestle one up close.

I have no played CD, so I will not comment on who I have in the match. But thanks to Josh for starting this. It has made a very boring day at work much more enjoyable  

[Mac Plumart]

Hole 1...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 2...Kingsley 10-7 (one of the best par 3's in the world, IMO.  And 2 at The Downs didn't do it for me)
Hole 3...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 4...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 5...Crystal 10-9
Hole 6...Crystal 10-8
Hole 7...Crystal 10-8
Hole 8...Crystal 10-8
Hole 9...Kingsley 10-9 (I thought 9 at Kingsley was a truly great member's course par 3)

At the turn...

Kingsley 83; Crystal 83.  BOOM!!!

Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Kingsley 10-6 (green speed and contours don't match at all at Crystal)
Hole 12...Crystal 10-9 (I really like 12 at Crystal...soothing, interesting, and enjoyable)

[Matthew Lloyd]

Now that we're into the back nine of these courses, here is a question for those of you who have played Crystal Downs multiple times (I've only played it once) ---- if forced to pick, which nine would you choose?

My gut reaction after playing the course once was that I preferred the back nine.  I thought every hole from #11-#17 was off the charts.  And the stretch from #14 through #17 might be my favorite four hole stretch that I've ever played.  But I'm getting the sense from this thread that many of you may prefer the front nine.  Would be interested to hear some thoughts on this as I thought the back nine was more fun to play.

And I would go with the opposite take on Kingsley... though I love the back nine there, I prefer the open and wild front.  

This is splitting hairs of course, but while we're digging into the nitty gritty here figured I'd ask.

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