The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event

[Josh Tarble]

This past September, while I was in Northern Michigan for the Midwest Mashie, I was fortunate enough to have the great honor of playing Crystal Downs once and the Kingsley Club multiple times over a couple days.  Since then, I have not been able to stop thinking about either course.  I feel like a young lad with his first crush and this is my love letter to both courses.

I searched through old posts (as best as I could) but could not find a match thread between the two, so I'm pitting these two northern mitten giants against each other.  I apologize if I missed a similar thread, but in reality, this is more for myself.  I also apologize in advance if I offend anyone with my selections and do not mean a loss as a diss...these two courses couldn't have been more special, both unbelievable experiences.

On to the opening ceremonies:

The Kingsley Club:
What can I say about this place that hasn't already been said?  It truly is a fantastic course with start to finish fireworks.  Every hole has some feature that makes it memorable and unique.  There are some of the finest holes I've been privileged to play in those 18 holes.  To me, it is an ideal members course, allowing the player to unlock a new secret on each subsequent play - all the while dropping their guests' jaws in awe.  A truly worthy opponent to the greatness of Crystal Downs.

Crystal Downs:
Playing Crystal Downs feels like a seminal moment in my golf playing career.  I am not sure how I will ever look at any course without comparing it to Crystal, it was that good in my opinion.  I haven't been as fortunate to play as many top of the charts good courses as others, but if there are 20 courses better than Crystal....wow!  I can't wait to play those.  From start to finish it was as cool an experience and as great of  a golf course as I could imagine.  It was the rare case of having extremely high expectations going in and those expectations being completely blown away.  To think I'd have that same feeling less than 24 hours later tells me the Kingsley Club can go toe-to-toe with the best.


On the first tee...the Kingsley Club #1

[JC Jones]

Sounds like a fun exercise.  I look forward to your thoughts.

[BHoover]

I'll be following this thread, Josh. I didn't play Crystal, but like you, I can't stop thinking about how good Kingsley was when we played it. In my experience (granted, it's limited), I struggle to think of a better members' course or match play course than Kingsley.

A question about Crystal...how does it play compared to Kingsley in terms of being F&F?

[Josh Tarble]

Hole #1

A note for the gallery...I will be using photos from Kyle Henderson's excellent photo tours of Kingsley and Crystal.  I appreciate him letting me borrow the photos for this thread.

Kingsley Club Photo Tour:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54384.0.html
Crystal Downs Photo Tour:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54327.0.html

All yardages will be from the back tees

The Kingsley Club #1 - 602 yards - Par 5
This is one of the finest opening holes I've had the privilege of playing.  One steps onto the tee for the first time and is staring into a massive wall of a fairway with a huge bunker at the top, for the big hitter, the only play is to carry the bunker on the right side, a massive speed slot (more like a ski slope) will give the ideal drive the possibility to reach in two.  However, the width of the hole provides ample space for the shorter hitter to navigate around the massive bunker complex. As of the entire course, the hole is defended at the green, with a massive tiered green and multiple hole positions.  All of them are fun, I found the middle position at the top of the first tier to be the most difficult.  The width allows you to swing away on the first swing of the day, while the hole progressively narrows, making par a fairly easy score and birdie fairly difficult.  An ideal, and great, opener.

The view from the putting green...with the really fun gold tees just in view over the little flagstick.  A really fun angle to play the hole from.


Crystal Downs #1 - 460 yards - Par 4
The view from the tee (and the parking lot) is the first of many awe inspiring moments at the Downs.  Plenty of room for a free swing, but the length puts pressure on the player to hit a solid drive on the first swing of the day.  The green is oriented so that it appears the ideal angle is from the right, but once one becomes more familiar with the surface it is immediate that the ideal angle is from the left, straight up the slopes.  As at Kingsley, every hole is defended at the green, and #1 is one of the most severe surfaces on the course.  This #1 is the exact opposite of a gentle handshake, but it does give the player a taste of what is to come.  Another fantastic opener.

The first hole from the right side of the tee box...and what a great view with Crystal Lake in the background.



What a pair of opening holes! I really enjoyed both of these and probably one of the most difficult decisions for me to make.  I love the way the green at CD sits, deceiving the player into taking the wrong line.  A very, very close decision but I am going Crystal Downs 1 UP.

[JC Jones]

The first tee at Crystal Downs, especially for this Michigander, is one of the greatest places on earth.

The first at Crystal is one of the best holes on a great course.  If you'd ask me which hole is more "fun" to play, I'd say #1 at Kingsley.  Because I am a "fun factor" guy when doing rankings, I'm going with a draw on the opening hole.  Even after 1.

[Brian Little]

Josh,

Good thread, looking forward to reading more. I've had the pleasure of playing Crystal once, but not Kingsley...yet.  You note how both are defended by their greens. Curious, which do you feel has the more challenging set of greens overall?  

I found Crystal's to be extremely interesting...diabolical but fun. (The first made me pay, just as you described it.) Recall one unfortunate player in our foursome even putting off a green into a bunker. We didn't see it coming but our member host sounded an alarm just after the putt was struck. Amusing. Can't wait to play Kingsley so I can compare myself.

[Peter Pallotta]

re CD #1: I remember enjoying the view very much, but being daunted by the length, even though it's downhill. But, average golfer of average distance that I am, and even after tugging my drive a little left into the rough, I still got up to the green in two (well, a little above the pin, and just off the green). I hit what for me was a decent chip....and then proceeded to three putt, running the first putt way past and not wantiing it to happen again leaving my second putt short. See: what scared me at the tee didn't prove to be the problem at all, and instead the last thing I foolishly thought before the cascade that led to a demoralizing double bogie was 'Hey, I can par this hole!".  A nice trick, huh? I got to the 2nd tee, perhaps as the architect intended, already bamboozeled (sp). Can't compare/participate because I haven't played Kingsley -- just wanted to note the "smart architecture".  

Peter

[Josh Tarble]

JC, I don't disagree with you.  KC #1 is really fun.  I thought the hole could go either way but I just really like the first tee and the green at CD is just incredible.  It's really the first moment that you realize the course is all it's cracked up to be.

Brian,  I found CD greens more challenging, as it seemed like a lot of the slopes fed off of greens and just in general very tilted.  KC are also very challenging, but in a more forgiving manner.  A lot of slopes feed internally towards the hole.

I found CD very fun in an extremely challenging manner, I found KC very challenging in an extremely fun manner, if that statement makes sense.

[Jason Thurman]

Josh, you're obviously right about the best angle for the approach to the first at Crystal being from the left side of the fairway. Of course, that left side is more ideal for some than for others. I recall it being especially ideal for you, though perhaps not the best angle from which to watch the approach shot land with the glare from the morning dew reflected back into your eyes.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tough start, from whichever tee you may play from on the first at Kingsley.
The setting of both CD and Kingsley's first tees are two of the best anywhere, up there with the first at Merion and the Old Course.
Both great starting holes, but I have to go with Kingsley 1 up, that centre bunker complex is simply too darn cool not to win the hole.

[Kevin_D]

This is fun - I just played both these courses and was blown away by each of them.

As for #1, while both are great holes and great openers, I think I would actually give the nod to KC as you have more options and it's just amazingly dramatic looking from the tee box.  This is no knock on CD - KC's #1 might be my favorite opener anywhere.

As for greens overall, while KC has a few crazy ones, CD might have the toughest greens on which I've ever putted.

[Jason Thurman]

With Josh's blessing, I'd like to follow this thread using the boxing scorecard format recently introduced by John Kavanaugh. I was fortunate to play both courses with him, and after riding his coattails to two great courses in Michigan I'll happily continue riding his coattails on this thread.

Both courses throw haymakers on the first tee. Crystal Downs' first tee view is, quite simply, a home run. The whole front nine just lays out in front of you, creating an adrenaline rush in the player fit for opening a title fight. This tee shot, more than anything on the course, defines the Crystal Downs experience for me. Josh covered the playing characteristics well - it's as straightforward as any tough hole rich with subtlety and featuring a green that could be happily putted for 30 minutes can be. I do love, though, that the strategy of the hole goes against formula. We all love strategic golf, but sometimes I think we try to define strategy in a narrow box that says "put a hazard in the ideal side of the fairway, and make the approach trickier from the other side." With a fairway bunker right and a green opening from that side, it appears the ideal angle of approach is from the right. In fact, it might be from the left for most pin positions to get the ideal angle into the green's slope. Then again, an approach from the left brings the back bunkers more into the line of play while it's easier to bail out away from them from the right, leaving a simpler up and down that might be the ideal play for the bogey golfer.

Of course, Kingsley's opening view is a pretty great one as well, and probably defines the course as well as Crystal's opener. The tee shot is accommodating with plenty of short grass and wide channels to each side of the bunker complex, but it also requires precision from the player long enough to think about flying the complex and getting home in two to strike it well enough and on the correct line. Like the first at Crystal, the first at Kingsley gives the bogey golfer strategic options to take advantage of the stroke he's receiving. The landing zone for a layup is wide, and the green accepts a running shot. Getting above the hole is probably just as treacherous here as it is at Crystal's first too.

I suspect either of these holes would win most rounds 10-8 against another course. They're both fantastic openers. For me, the playing characteristics of the 1st at Crystal just slightly trump those of Kingsley's first. As great as Kingsley's tee shot is, missing the speed slot leaves a fairly uneventful second while every shot at Crystal's opener is exciting regardless of how out of position you've gotten (as I can attest). It's nitpicking, but that's the only way to pick a winner between two holes that are among the best 50 opening holes in golf.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9

Running Total: CD 10, Kingsley 9

[Howard Riefs]

This should be a fun exercise.  I just wish I had played CD with you so I could contribute to the analysis of CD.  

The Kingsley Club #1 - 602 yards - Par 5
... making par a fairly easy score and birdie fairly difficult.

For those who haven't had the honor to play with Josh, keep in mind that he's a 2.7 index and bombs it 340 off the tee.  A fairly easy par for him is not the norm for those who don't have that kind of game. That's more so the case on #1 at Kingsley as you need to hit the speed slot on the right to give you that extra kick down the hill.  Otherwise, you're up on top adjacent to the centerline bunker.

[Chris Clouser]

I'm probably going to be one of the few that thinks this is a no-brainer.  In my mind the first at Crystal is significantly better.  The talk of options on the first at Kingsley really centers on one choice, are you foolhardy enough to attempt getting for that green in two, if it is even possible.  If not, then the hole becomes a standard three shotter regardless of whether you go left or right off the tee or over the bunkers. If you do take the gamble, then it becomes a study in execution and puts it on equal footing with the first at Kingsley in playability.  The green at CD is more dangerous and rewarding at the same time in my mind.  The view and scenery at CD is better as well.  The first hole is easily in CD's favor in my mind.

Let me add, I think the world of Kingsley and Mike DeVries (heck, he wrote the foreword to one of my books), but I think the love on this site for Kingsley is driven by the feeling of it being one of the favored sons of this site and the fact that Mike has been a contributor in the past and that he is such a good guy.  It is a very good course with all of that being said.  

[Tim Bert]

I am going to play along here even though I am a Kingsley homer that has played the course numerous times and I have only played Crystal Downs three rounds. I have previously proclaimed that I would play Kingsley 7 out of 10 rounds between the two courses (that figure might change if I were a low handicapper) and I am sure there are those that will dismiss that opinion. Still, I have never done the match play between these two courses and I am interested in the outcome.

Both holes have a spectacular tee shot providing a great visual.  Plenty has already been said about each. I prefer the start at Crystal Downs slightly.

Hole 1 - CD, 1 Up

[Josh Tarble]

Howard,

The carry over the bunker may be a bit lengthy, but I still maintain it's a fairly good chance at par with 3 decent shots (at least as decent as you'll get out at Kingsley).  The second is generally played to the same region, regardless of where the drive goes and the green complex is a bit bowl-shaped.  Don't get me wrong, it is easier hitting from the bottom of the hill, but bottom or top you're still really just trying to position your second for a quality third.

[Josh Tarble]

Tim, I'm glad you are chiming in!  I have read through your epic thread on Kingsley twice now since returning from the Mashie and decided this needed it's own vs. a single post there.

[Jason Thurman]

Howard, I agree that the first at Kingsley can be a fairly difficult par if you miss the speed slot, even lying in the fairway. However, as the 4 handicap hole on the course, it must be one of the easiest holes to play to one's handicap out there. For me, it always came down to what I did in the last 70 yards of that hole. It would take two really great shots for me to reach in two, which is unfortunate because I could really use that third putt on that green.

[Jud_T]

I have to begrudgingly give this one to CD.  Phenomenal view and fantastic green.  Kingsley places too much of a premium on the ability to carry the hill IMO, which is a pretty good poke for mere mortals.  The hole plays as a Par 6 for me and I'm invariably 1 down climbing to the second tee. The second shot even for those who do carry it is a pretty ho-hum layup.  The approach, granted, is really good with the ability to use all kinds of slopes.  I think people are bowled away with the scale of the dunes at Kingsley their first time out and this plays into the in-your-faceness of #1.  Plus frankly I prefer a bit of a gentler opener than such a slap in the face, not that number 1 at CD is exactly a pushover.  In fact if I hadn't made a brutal slider from above the hole at CD I might still be out there and my ranking might be reversed.


CD 1 UP..

[JC Jones]

Talk to me about the fantasticness of the first green at Crystal.  It is pretty severe back to front and right to left.  I don't recall a lot of internal contouring to the green though.

I think people are underrating the first green at Kingsley.  The variety based on the pin position is exceptional and the middle of the green, to me, is often very confusing to putt.

[Brian Hilko]

Chris,

With all due respect, even if Mike was a jerk it wouldn't change the fact that Kingsley is one of the best modern courses on earth. I know a lot of people drink the Kingsley "koolaid" but that is for a reason. Few courses get my heart pounding like Kingsley does. There are just so many fun shots.

As far as hole one goes CD 1 UP. The hole is tough for any handicapper. If you miss right you better hit the pin or you will still be still chipping. If the opening tee shot didn't get your attention putting off the first green will. CD 1 is one of the best openers I have ever played.

[Mark Saltzman]

I haven't done the math but I think this is going to be a Kingsley blowout victory for me.

I have said in the past that I just didn't get CD... I am really looking forward to reading others' opinions.

[Jackson C]

I'm probably going to be one of the few that thinks this is a no-brainer.  In my mind the first at Crystal is significantly better.  The talk of options on the first at Kingsley really centers on one choice, are you foolhardy enough to attempt getting for that green in two, if it is even possible.  If not, then the hole becomes a standard three shotter regardless of whether you go left or right off the tee or over the bunkers. If you do take the gamble, then it becomes a study in execution and puts it on equal footing with the first at Kingsley in playability.  The green at CD is more dangerous and rewarding at the same time in my mind.  The view and scenery at CD is better as well.  The first hole is easily in CD's favor in my mind.

Let me add, I think the world of Kingsley and Mike DeVries (heck, he wrote the foreword to one of my books), but I think the love on this site for Kingsley is driven by the feeling of it being one of the favored sons of this site and the fact that Mike has been a contributor in the past and that he is such a good guy.  It is a very good course with all of that being said.  

MacKenzie/Maxwell and Doak outweigh any bias to DeVries.  Big picture please.

[Tim Bert]

Let me add, I think the world of Kingsley and Mike DeVries (heck, he wrote the foreword to one of my books), but I think the love on this site for Kingsley is driven by the feeling of it being one of the favored sons of this site and the fact that Mike has been a contributor in the past and that he is such a good guy.  It is a very good course with all of that being said.  

I'd like to go on the record and state that I joined a club in northern Michigan 700 miles away from my home because I love the course and enjoy it as much as any other I have played and not because it was built by a favorite son of this site or because Mike is a great guy.  

Crystal Downs has certainly benefitted over time from its association with people that contribute on this site as well but that doesn't take anything away from it being a great golf course.

[Bill Seitz]

The talk of options on the first at Kingsley really centers on one choice, are you foolhardy enough to attempt getting for that green in two, if it is even possible.  If not, then the hole becomes a standard three shotter regardless of whether you go left or right off the tee or over the bunkers.

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion for obvious reasons of bias, but this part of Chris' comment strikes me as completely nonsensical.  I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, Chris.  Are you saying you're not sure if it's possible to get to the first green in two?  Or that you're not sure if any particular player can get there in two?  I can guarantee you, as someone who is an average length hitter, it is possible to get there in two.  

Second, I don't think you could be any more wrong regarding strategy on the second shot.  Even if you can't get there, you're often left with option of challenging the rough and the native that cuts in on the left side in trying to get the ball past the neck to a half sand wedge distance, or laying back short of the neck for a safer layup, yet longer approach shot.  Additionally, there's the question of whether you're better off playing the ball longer up the right side, which should leave a clear view of the green (though not the bottom of the flag stick), or a little further back up the left side, which will probably leave a blind shot behind the knob about 100 yards short of the green, but provides a far superior angle to a lot of the pin positions on that green.  The strategy on the second and third shots there changes almost every day.  To a back right pin, a pitching wedge from the right side of the fairway is easier to put on the green, but a blind 8-iron from the left side of the fairway is easier to get close.