[Mark Chaplin]

It's a mystery, maybe he has lost his passport. For someone who appears to like the classics, which are modelled on the real thing, he appears to avoid the real thing.

I enjoyed Woking on Saturday, the greens do have lots of movement, I need to play them when they are quick! 1 & 9 are very ordinary holes. The new 16th looks neat and it's nice to see a club give a hole a full year to grown in. I guess it will open in the spring. Despite huge amounts of rain Worplesdon remained playable (just) on Sunday. Having won a scrappy knockout in the morning we lunched well and my partner and I were -1 when we dished out a licence in the afternoon. Splendid weekend of foursomes.

[Mark Pearce]

Pat,

If Scott's two posts reflect two seperate thoughts, what led you to believe there had to have been an epiphany between them?  Since it was you that originally compared the two posts, no doubt you'll be able to explain why.

[Scott Warren]

I must admit, when I first saw this thread's title I hoped that it might be off-topic and Patrick would, in the OP, declare a fondness for hipster beards, ladies with full-sleeve tattoos, manufactured reality TV music groups or the paleo diet. No such luck!

Patrick,

I'm sorry you've struggled to understand my two separate points. Let's see if I can't help you out.

It's a shame the game has gone the way it has in America and thick ribbons, sometimes seas, of rough separate the greens from their hazards at many, many courses. It's a shame that one of the great constant joys of golf elsewhere is a rare treat, a trend, in your home country.

As has been noted, the joy of playing golf courses where the hazards and green must be encountered as one cannot be beat. And we are fortunate to have entire continents where this is no "trend".

Here's a great example of what I'm talking about in Britain. The hole is the 16th at Royal St George's. pay attention not only to the bunker shots returning to the sand, but how the tee shot spends so long on the green before finding its resting place in the bunker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MZSziSUBWA

And this at Metropolitan in Melbourne needs no description:



I hope that has helped you make sense of my earlier contributions.

[Chris Johnston]

Have to concur with Scott here.  The end result of the roughification in the US removes the real art and demand of shotmaking.  

Regardless the causes, this has helped to take real fun and creativity out of the game.  

Probably too much focus on "tour" conditions.  

[Thomas Dai]

Rough around the greens, plus rough length fairway bunker collars, is also prevalent at many UK inland/parkland courses. Transatlantic colour TV coverage of tour events and magazine photos have IMO contributed in promoting this look. Hopefully the look is (slowly) disappearing although I'm not holding my breath.

As others have said, shotmaking skills and creativity are removed from the game when it's purely rough around a green, ie. miss a green with rough at the sides, it's gouge a sand/lob wedge time. Low cut, firm and fast green surrounds with run-offs etc provide for a great variety of recovery shots and skills. Great fun as well, conjuring up an unusual recovery shot from an interesting spot, plus balls roll further away from greens when the green surrounds are cut low.

All the best

[JMEvensky]

Have to concur with Scott here.  The end result of the roughification in the US removes the real art and demand of shotmaking.  

Regardless the causes, this has helped to take real fun and creativity out of the game.  

Probably too much focus on "tour" conditions.  

I agree with your first and second second statements--but I'm not sure about the third.

At my place,every green and bunker is virtually ringed with Bermuda.For us,it's 100% a maintenance dollars issue.The guys making the decision have no interest in PGAT conditions--they just don't know how to prioritize a maintenance budget.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Don't you think that the advent and popularity of the tri-plex played a roll in this ?

No pun intended...


How do you know ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chappers - I am not sure why Mucci takes exception to Scott's idea that no such trend exists in the UK or Oz, but one never knows with Mucci.  

Sean A,

Well maybe you ought to read what you type.

YOU took exception to "Scott's idea that no such trend exists in the UK" in your reply # 23 when you stated:

Below is an example of the problem in England

Here are a few classic examples at Ridgewood




Have you ever played Ridgewood ?
Have you played it this year ?

Below is the grand daddy of them all - bunkers pinching the front entrance with rough on the inside leaving enough space for maybe four golfers to walk through the neck.  This look is associated with championship US courses across the country.  On these tours, barely a person mentions the cut lines.  

Your lack of familiarity with the steep and pitched terrain is causing you to draw flawed conclusions.

Stick to commenting on courses you've actually been on and your views will have more credibility

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Courses like Seminole, NGLA and others are restoring the function of the terrain in the U.S.

For a variety of reasons, buffers have been introduced within the body of the hole and at the green end.

I have to believe that the turning radius of a Tri-plex and the inherent danger in the use of a tri-plex on an elevated green with steep banks played a role in the encroachment of rough into areas never intended to be rough.

In the body of the hole, I think the introduction of single center line automated irrigation systems in the 50's and 60's played a part.

The throw radius of those systems turned benign rough into challenging rough and in many cases resulted in the shrinking of fairways.

As golf's popularity grew and clubs diversified their memberships, "fairness" replaced "penal" as an object or condition of play.

Like the growth of a tree, encroachment was a slow almost imperceptible process. And like the removal of a tree in one swift blow, the removal of the rough becomes controversial due to the immediate visibility, so, there is resistance to change despite the return of function, function not readily understood by most golfers and green chairs.

The good news is that when the iconic clubs engage in the practice, the trickle down effect takes hold and those clubs about to remove the rough can cite the iconic clubs as "exhibit A" , giving the project credibility

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

 Pat,
Places like Sunningdale New have this down to a fine art, no greenside rough and the wonderful subtle contours carry the ball into adjacent bunkers or some of the greatest greenside collection areas I have ever seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MWP,

One of the most excruciating feelings in golf is watching a marginally or misjudged shot follow the terrain/contours, knowing that the result will not be favorable.

[Sean_A]

Mucci

Are you actually following the same thread as Mark, Scott and myself?  Yet again, your mind is on vacation and your mouth is running overtime.  This has become habitual behaviour, is it something you picked up from Happydale Farms?

Ciao

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