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Bryan Izatt

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Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2013, 03:30:45 AM »
Patrick,

You asked about the distances.  See below.  

The carry from today's back tee is around 190.  

And the carry from the front tee ?


......................................


Are you saying you can't pace off the distance from the back tee to the front tee and subtract it from 190 yards?   ???  



No, but seeing as how I'm in another state and didn't want to be accused by being off by a yard, I thought it prudent to ask you for your linear measurement.  Silly me


Who knew you were so sensitive about being off by a yard!  Have you thought about checking the scorecard for the difference between the back and forward tees.


Hint, the tee is about 35 yards long, so the carry from the front tee might be somewhere around 170 yards.  


I get 155 yards.
How did you subtract 35 from 190 and get 170 ?
Maybe that's the new math in Canada


I'm sure you'd never understand our metric math.  But, in the interest of your ongoing education, let's see if you can follow this.  The back tee location (as defined by the scorecard stated yardage for the hole) is not at the back edge of the tee box.  It is where I showed it on the aerial below.  The forward tee (as defined by the scorecard yardage) is not at the very front of the tee box.  Therefore the difference between the two tees can't be as much as the total length of the tee.  It must be less.  I guesstimated 20 yards.   Upon further checking the scorecard lists the back tees at 405 yards and the forward tees at 388 yards - a difference of 17 yards.  My guesstimate wasn't bad.  So, the correct answer is 173 yards, and certainly not 155 yards.

................................................









Fifty years ago I could carry a 3 iron 195 yards and a 5 iron 175 yards, so I could have played your example hole with an iron off the tee from either the back or forward tees.  And, I wasn't a long hitter, even in my youth.  Now it would probably take me a 3 wood or hybrid in either case.  My conclusion would be that the bunkers are not all that functionally different than they were in the past.  Long hitters in the past or now would simply blow it over the bunkers.  They still seem to provide some visual stimulation at the very least.  All said and done, it'd be my opinion that the bunkers in question at GCGC should be left alone.

For other courses and other bunkers that are no longer in play, it should be a case by case decision based on factors that others have brought up above.


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2013, 03:50:34 AM »
From the March 1909 American Golfer, here are some comments (possibly written by Travis) on the bunkers at GCGC.  It sounds like the ones in question in this thread were probably flattish with coarse sand and not so punitive.  But, more to follow, when time permits.




Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2013, 10:45:10 AM »
The second part of the GCGC bunker story.  Maybe they were punitive.






Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2013, 04:02:05 PM »

Who knew you were so sensitive about being off by a yard!  

Have you thought about checking the scorecard for the difference between the back and forward tees.


Score cards and yardage plates are not always indicative of the size of the tee nor the yardages from the front and back of the tee, or where the actual tee markers that dictate daily play are placed.
That happens to be the case at GCGC's 16th where the scorecard only indicates a difference of 17 yards on a tee that's 35 yards front to back.

Once again, your limited knowledge prohibits you from understanding the issues.


I'm sure you'd never understand our metric math.  But, in the interest of your ongoing education, let's see if you can follow this.  The back tee location (as defined by the scorecard stated yardage for the hole) is not at the back edge of the tee box.  [/size]


Ahhh, just one of your many mistakes.
The back tee is in fact close to the back of the of the physical tee
You're confusing a plate marker with the location of the tee markers.
But, what do I know, I only played there yesterday.

Let me help you.

From two clublengths from the back of the tee, the top of the bunker in the fairway, the bunker you have to carry, is 173 yards.
From the forward tee, about 25 to 30 yards closer, it's a 143 to 148 yard carry.


It is where I showed it on the aerial below.  The forward tee (as defined by the scorecard yardage) is not at the very front of the tee box.  Therefore the difference between the two tees can't be as much as the total length of the tee.  It must be less.  I guesstimated 20 yards.   Upon further checking the scorecard lists the back tees at 405 yards and the forward tees at 388 yards - a difference of 17 yards.  My guesstimate wasn't bad.  So, the correct answer is 173 yards, and certainly not 155 yards.

Another of your many mistakes is that you've measured a distance to a bunker off the line of play, unless of course you think golfers aim toward out of bounds or into heavy rough.

It's the bunker IN the fairway that constitutes the primary challenge for golfers not aiming out of bounds or aiming into heavy rough.

I can see how your lack of familiarity and reliance on aerial photos could lead you to flawed conclusions.






Fifty years ago I could carry a 3 iron 195 yards and a 5 iron 175 yards, so I could have played your example hole with an iron off the tee from either the back or forward tees.  And, I wasn't a long hitter, even in my youth.  Now it would probably take me a 3 wood or hybrid in either case.  My conclusion would be that the bunkers are not all that functionally different than they were in the past.
[/size]

I guess that's why I had a 9-iron into that green yesterday.
Is that the approach club that they hit in the past ?



Long hitters in the past or now would simply blow it over the bunkers.
[/size]

So it's your position that Emmett and Travis introduced gratuitous bunkers that didn't come into play, contemporaneously ?
Hard to believe that they'd make that kind of mistake, especially when they had the opportunity to modify the location of those bunkers on numerous occassions.
And, especially when you examine them in context of the placement of other bunkers on the golf course, contemporaneously.
 


They still seem to provide some visual stimulation at the very least.
[/size]

More so the center, or the first bunker encountered



All said and done, it'd be my opinion that the bunkers in question at GCGC should be left alone.
[/size]


Some feel the same way, but, that doesn't answer the entire question.
Should additional bunkers be introduced to return the original strategy off the tee....... today ?



For other courses and other bunkers that are no longer in play, it should be a case by case decision based on factors that others have brought up above.
[/size]

Don't disagree, but, in this case, do you leave them as vestigial features or introduce similar bunkers into the DZ ?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 04:07:21 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2013, 11:51:26 PM »

Who knew you were so sensitive about being off by a yard!  

Have you thought about checking the scorecard for the difference between the back and forward tees.


Score cards and yardage plates are not always indicative of the size of the tee nor the yardages from the front and back of the tee, or where the actual tee markers that dictate daily play are placed.
That happens to be the case at GCGC's 16th where the scorecard only indicates a difference of 17 yards on a tee that's 35 yards front to back.

Once again, your limited knowledge prohibits you from understanding the issues.


Wow, now there's a revelation!   ;D

But, it seemed reasonable to me to give you carry distances from the tee location that gives you a 405 yard hole.  Perhaps if you framed your thoughts and questions properly, the rest of us might (maybe) understand them.  If you wanted to talk about the very back of the existing tee (which gives a hole of more than 405 yards) you could have said so.  By the way, has the tee always extended that far back?


I'm sure you'd never understand our metric math.  But, in the interest of your ongoing education, let's see if you can follow this.  The back tee location (as defined by the scorecard stated yardage for the hole) is not at the back edge of the tee box.  [/size]


Ahhh, just one of your many mistakes.
The back tee is in fact close to the back of the of the physical tee
You're confusing a plate marker with the location of the tee markers.

Another astonishing revelation!  The tee blocks of the day aren't always where the "plate marker" is.  Who would have thunk it.   ;)

But, what do I know, I only played there yesterday.

Let me help you.

From two clublengths from the back of the tee, the top of the bunker in the fairway, the bunker you have to carry, is 173 yards.
From the forward tee, about 25 to 30 yards closer, it's a 143 to 148 yard carry.  

Gee, you didn't pace off the difference between the back and forward tees when you were there yesterday!?  I guess the foward blocks weren't at the forward plate marker either.  Astonishing!


I didn't have to be there yesterday to figure that out.  Too bad it only took three pages of posts for you to point out that you were thinking of a different bunker than I measured.

It is where I showed it on the aerial below.  The forward tee (as defined by the scorecard yardage) is not at the very front of the tee box.  Therefore the difference between the two tees can't be as much as the total length of the tee.  It must be less.  I guesstimated 20 yards.   Upon further checking the scorecard lists the back tees at 405 yards and the forward tees at 388 yards - a difference of 17 yards.  My guesstimate wasn't bad.  So, the correct answer is 173 yards, and certainly not 155 yards.

Another of your many mistakes is that you've measured a distance to a bunker off the line of play, unless of course you think golfers aim toward out of bounds or into heavy rough.

The line I measured, if extended leads to the right side of the fairway, not the heavy rough or OOB.  According to our fearless leader, in his review of GCGC, " In reality, the better angle of approach is from the right hand side of the fairway, away from the general direction of the green."  But what does he know.   ;)

It's the bunker IN the fairway that constitutes the primary challenge for golfers not aiming out of bounds or aiming into heavy rough.

Silly me, I thought the play must be over the furthest bunker to the preferred angle on the right side of the fairway.  The OOB must be at least 30 yards right of there.

I can see how your lack of familiarity and reliance on aerial photos could lead you to flawed conclusions.






Fifty years ago I could carry a 3 iron 195 yards and a 5 iron 175 yards, so I could have played your example hole with an iron off the tee from either the back or forward tees.  And, I wasn't a long hitter, even in my youth.  Now it would probably take me a 3 wood or hybrid in either case.  My conclusion would be that the bunkers are not all that functionally different than they were in the past.
[/size]

I guess that's why I had a 9-iron into that green yesterday.
Is that the approach club that they hit in the past ?


Nice 260-270 yard drive.  I have no idea what club "they" might have hit on that approach, but then neither do you.  What year(s) of the "past" did you have in mind, by the way.
 


Long hitters in the past or now would simply blow it over the bunkers.
[/size]

So it's your position that Emmett and Travis introduced gratuitous bunkers that didn't come into play, contemporaneously ?
Hard to believe that they'd make that kind of mistake, especially when they had the opportunity to modify the location of those bunkers on numerous occassions.
And, especially when you examine them in context of the placement of other bunkers on the golf course, contemporaneously.
 


One of your less endearing traits is to put words in other peoples mouths.  

If I understand your point, it is that the bunkers provided a significant penal challenge at the time they were built and subsequently for some time.  The carry distance, is now 173 and 145 from the back and front tees respectively.  Assuming the carry distances were the same in whatever era of the past you are referring to, are you saying that a carry of 173 yards was a significant penal challenge for the best players from the back tees in those past times?  

A little research suggest the Haskell ball could be driven 225 to 250 yards.  By the 1980's carry distances of the best players were up to 270 yards and in the 2000's the distances are up to 290 yards.  So, apparently carrying the bunkers is less meaningful today than when they were built.  Arguably they weren't that difficult to carry when built.  Would you like to move the bunker 40 yards down the fairway to reflect the increase in driving distances?  It still wouldn't be much of a challenge for a man of your talent, and advanced age, to carry.  The second shots on the hole, of course would be substantially different.  Moving the bunker has no impact on that shot.


They still seem to provide some visual stimulation at the very least.
[/size]

More so the center, or the first bunker encountered



All said and done, it'd be my opinion that the bunkers in question at GCGC should be left alone.
[/size]


Some feel the same way, but, that doesn't answer the entire question.
Should additional bunkers be introduced to return the original strategy off the tee....... today ?



What was the "original strategy" off the tee?  Go left of the bunker and not so far as to hit the left side bunkers?  Carry it over the bunker at some risk?  Or, were both viable strategies?  

You could add bunkers, but as per the above, it looks to me like it was a reasonable carry in the past and would be a reasonably easy carry today even if you moved the bunkers 40 yards further out.  The second shot is going to be significantly different even if you could replicate the driving challenge and strategy(ies) as long as its a 405 yard hole.



For other courses and other bunkers that are no longer in play, it should be a case by case decision based on factors that others have brought up above.
[/size]

Don't disagree, but, in this case, do you leave them as vestigial features or introduce similar bunkers into the DZ ?

See above.  If you want to replicate the challenge and experience of the original intent of the hole you'd need to either roll back the ball and equipment or expand everything on the hole by something approximating the distance increases of the ball and equipment over the last century.  And, that means not only lengthening the drive but also lengthening the second shot.  I'd go with leaving well enough alone.  I assume the course still provides a fun challenge to its members, and that the Tour isn't going to stop there any time soon.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 12:01:29 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2013, 06:49:03 PM »
This is an interesting post as I posed the same question while on a tour of Battle Creek's 5th hole last summer with our architect...

Battle Creek's 5th hole is a 410 yard dogleg right par 4 with a giant bunker about 30 yards from the green on the right side of the fairway.  I argued the same point that Pat made--what is this thing doing here?  The way it was explained to me was that in that era, on that hole, a lot of good players would actually want to hit a low running shot into the green and that was the ideal way to play the hole.  Granted it's more of an air game now, and I've never even thought about hitting that shot on that hole, but I have seen quite a few blocked shots when playing into the wind make it into that bunker, and it's obviously not a fun shot.

Even still, despite its relative lack of relevance, I think it adds an element of character to the hole and the course in general by maintaining the structure of the original as long as it's not wholly irrelevant

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2013, 05:26:33 PM »
Wow, now there's a revelation!   ;D

But, it seemed reasonable to me to give you carry distances from the tee location that gives you a 405 yard hole.  Perhaps if you framed your thoughts and questions properly, the rest of us might (maybe) understand them.  If you wanted to talk about the very back of the existing tee (which gives a hole of more than 405 yards) you could have said so.  By the way, has the tee always extended that far back?


The problem is that your carry distance is to a bunker that's off the intended line of play.
But, don't fret, the same condition appears on the 10th hole, which needs to have the tee shifted toward the 9th green and the trees along the left fairway flank pruned/removed.

I measured the carry distance from the back of the tee in order to remove any variable.
The tee is about 35 yards in length and only one yardage plate is located on the tee, so the tee markers are in front and behind that plate.
Today, the tee is limited in terms of property line, but, the original hole yardage is listed as 446, leading me to believe that the property behind the current 16th tee might have been used.  At 446, those bunkers would be highly functional in terms of both flighted and grounded drives.


Another astonishing revelation!  The tee blocks of the day aren't always where the "plate marker" is.  Who would have thunk it.   ;)

Gee, you didn't pace off the difference between the back and forward tees when you were there yesterday!?  
I guess the foward blocks weren't at the forward plate marker either.  Astonishing!


That's because there is no "forward" plate marker.
And that's where your ignorance does you in. ;D


I didn't have to be there yesterday to figure that out.  
Too bad it only took three pages of posts for you to point out that you were thinking of a different bunker than I measured.


I thought it best to let you continue to list measurements to features essentially out of the line of play.
I guess that's one of the advantages to actually setting foot on and playing a golf course.

In fact, I believe Tom Doak's description of the hole, advises that the best line of play is "straight toward the green", and "for those with length to spare, well out to the right"


The line I measured, if extended leads to the right side of the fairway, not the heavy rough or OOB.  According to our fearless leader, in his review of GCGC, " In reality, the better angle of approach is from the right hand side of the fairway, away from the general direction of the green."  But what does he know.   ;)

The line you chose, to carry the far bunker, would put a drive with a cut/fade/slice into heavy rough, in the woods or OB


Silly me, I thought the play must be over the furthest bunker to the preferred angle on the right side of the fairway.  The OOB must be at least 30 yards right of there.

Look again.
And remember, just a few days ago I hit a 9-iron into that green, so how close would I come to the heavy rough/woods/OB if I had cut/faded or sliced my drive ?

I'm constantly amazed at your ability to instruct me as to how the hole plays, when you've never set foot on the tee and are unfamiliar with the nature and slope of the land or the prevailing wind directions.  You're better than Kreskin. ;D






Nice 260-270 yard drive.  I have no idea what club "they" might have hit on that approach, but then neither do you.  
What year(s) of the "past" did you have in mind, by the way.


I can guarantee you that it wasn't a 9-iron.
Take your pick, 50, 75 or 100

 

One of your less endearing traits is to put words in other peoples mouths.  [/size]

I merely rephrased what you implied.
I can't help it if you now see the absurdity in your original statement.



If I understand your point, it is that the bunkers provided a significant penal challenge at the time they were built and subsequently for some time.  The carry distance, is now 173 and 145 from the back and front tees respectively.  Assuming the carry distances were the same in whatever era of the past you are referring to, are you saying that a carry of 173 yards was a significant penal challenge for the best players from the back tees in those past times?  
[/size]


Absolutely.
What your lack of familiarity also deprives you of is the direction and velocity of the prevailing wind, which does not aid the golfer.
In addition, it appears that the original hole was longer and that those bunkers were far more functional.


A little research suggest the Haskell ball could be driven 225 to 250 yards.  

That's disingenuous, perhaps you should have done more research.
The Haskell ball wasn't carrying 225 to 250 and this is an issue all about "carry"



By the 1980's carry distances of the best players were up to 270 yards and in the 2000's the distances are up to 290 yards.  So, apparently carrying the bunkers is less meaningful today than when they were built.



So now you're introducing the PGA Tour Pros as the standard for establishing bunker locations.
That's beyond disingenuous.
And, not to get ahead of you, but, look at your last paragraph where you clearly state that "members of the tour aren't going to be stopping by any time soon".
So, let's dismiss your desperate attempt at reframing the issue and stick to the bunker locations in the context of members/guests, not PGA Tour Pros

  

Arguably they weren't that difficult to carry when built.  
[/size]

That's absolutely not true.
How can you make that claim ?
Especially since you've never seen the bunkers, let alone played over or around them



Would you like to move the bunker 40 yards down the fairway to reflect the increase in driving distances?  It still wouldn't be much of a challenge for a man of your talent, and advanced age, to carry.
[/size]

I think you could make a legitimate case for that, on this hole and many others in the world of golf.
What functional purpose, other than visuals, does a vestigial feature serve ?
Why allow the original function of the fairway bunker/s, any fairway bunker/s, to become obsolete ?
 

The second shots on the hole, of course would be substantially different.  Moving the bunker has no impact on that shot.


Then why would you state that "The second shots on the hole, of course would be substantially different."
The second shots, other than those that find the reintroduced bunker/s, would remain static.



What was the "original strategy" off the tee?  Go left of the bunker and not so far as to hit the left side bunkers?  Carry it over the bunker at some risk?  Or, were both viable strategies?

Both


You could add bunkers, but as per the above, it looks to me like it was a reasonable carry in the past and would be a reasonably easy carry today even if you moved the bunkers 40 yards further out.  The second shot is going to be significantly different even if you could replicate the driving challenge and strategy(ies) as long as its a 405 yard hole.
[/size]

Replicating the bunker complex another 40 yards out would recreate the challenge originally intended off the tee.
Is not a half a loaf better than none ?
And, I don't know why you continue to claim that the second shot would be different.
Other than balls that would find the newly introduced bunker/s, the second shot would remain the same.


See above.  If you want to replicate the challenge and experience of the original intent of the hole you'd need to either roll back the ball and equipment or expand everything on the hole by something approximating the distance increases of the ball and equipment over the last century.  And, that means not only lengthening the drive but also lengthening the second shot.  I'd go with leaving well enough alone.  I assume the course still provides a fun challenge to its members, and that the Tour isn't going to stop there any time soon.

Expanding everything on the hole is impropable to impossible, but you can recreate the intent in the DZ, and that's what this thread is all about.

[/quote]


[/quote]
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 05:40:23 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2013, 03:16:21 AM »
Patrick,

Enough of the nonsense.  You can make up whatever interpretations of what I say to generate more arguing points if you want.    

Just two points.

The second shot would be different because it would have been 180 yards (for some average golfer) a century ago and it would be 150 yards (for some average golfer) today.  Or use whatever numbers you want.  It would have been a longer second shot back then than it is now.  And, players today hit irons further  today than they did back then.  So, it's a different shot, even if you could somehow create a similar challenge off the tee.  If you want that half a loaf go for it.  Don't bother dissecting this to find something to argue about.  

I don't know what your source and date is for the original yardage being 446 yards.  American Golfer in June 1912 lists the hole as 402 yards for the annual spring tournament of the Garden City Golf Club on May 9th-11th.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2013, 03:44:19 AM »
Patrick,

Enough of the nonsense.  You can make up whatever interpretations of what I say to generate more arguing points if you want.    
You call it nonsense, I call it accurate paraphrasing


Just two points.

The second shot would be different because it would have been 180 yards (for some average golfer) a century ago and it would be 150 yards (for some average golfer) today.  Or use whatever numbers you want.  It would have been a longer second shot back then than it is now.  And, players today hit irons further  today than they did back then.  So, it's a different shot, even if you could somehow create a similar challenge off the tee.  If you want that half a loaf go for it.  Don't bother dissecting this to find something to argue about.  

Bryan, you obviously missed the part about not being able to reconfigure the green end of the hole.
It ain't gonna happen.  The green won't be moved.
Hence the second shot today, would remain the same with the introduction of a similar bunker complex further from the tee.
Ergo, you could replicate the original intent on the drive, which equates to the half loaf being better than none at all.


I don't know what your source and date is for the original yardage being 446 yards.  

The official history of Garden City published for the Centennial Celebration


American Golfer in June 1912 lists the hole as 402 yards for the annual spring tournament of the Garden City Golf Club on May 9th-11th.

That's 13 years after the course was open.

And, If you had that information at your disposal why did you inquire about the early length of the hole as compared to the 405 listed today ? ? ?




Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2013, 04:06:37 AM »
You obviously missed my point.

Those official histories are never wrong, so 446 it was when it opened.

Because I didn't know what length you were using as your basis of comparison and I didn't want to pollute your mind with facts (because we know the magazines often got it wrong).  If you were thinking of it as a 446 yard hole with the longer carry why bother debating the carries I previously described?  

You really should try to get better at stating your premises in your opening posts.  But, then that would take away all the fun you seem to get out of twisting and turning to create arguing points wouldn't it.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2013, 06:58:08 AM »

You obviously missed my point.

That's usually inherent in your posts.


Those official histories are never wrong, so 446 it was when it opened.

I'm not so sure I'd say that they're never wrong, as Merion seemed to dispel that notion.


Because I didn't know what length you were using as your basis of comparison and I didn't want to pollute your mind with facts (because we know the magazines often got it wrong).

I don't think it matters if the hole was 446 or 405 or 420, a carry of 173 from the back of the current tee presents no substantive obstacle to those who play from the back tees at GCGC.  Even it the length of the hole has remained static, the advent of hi-tech has made the bunker a vestigial feature, which was never the original architect's intent.  A carry of 173 in 1899, 1929 or 1949 was still substantial, especially considering the prevailing wind.
 

If you were thinking of it as a 446 yard hole with the longer carry why bother debating the carries I previously described?

See my comment above
 

You really should try to get better at stating your premises in your opening posts.

Everybody else seemed to understand the premise, except for you.
Quite simply, at a carry of 173 or more yards, the bunker no longer serves its intended purpose,, ergo the question.
Move the bunker to a location where it would serve it's intended purpose, or, leave the existing bunker and introduce new bunkers in the DZ that would serve the original intended purpose.   You're the only one who didn't understand the premise.

Actually, I know you understood the premise, and that you just wanted to argue and refute it in an attempt to counter my query and underlying premise.  Your feigned confusion fools no one, but, you get an "A" for effort.
 

But, then that would take away all the fun you seem to get out of twisting and turning to create arguing points wouldn't it.

Not at all, it was you who chose to try to throw a monkey wrench into a simple question.
It was you who maintained that the bunkers were misplaced by the original architect/s.
It was you who dismissed their function.

The fun for me is proving that your lack of familiarity with a course, be it Pine Valley, Yale or GCGC, prevents you from drawing intelligent conclusions.

Ignorance may be bliss, but, not when it comes to discussing golf course architecture.


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2013, 11:47:52 AM »
Quote
A carry of 173 in 1899, 1929 or 1949 was still substantial, especially considering the prevailing wind.

I agree to disagree on this point.

As to the rest, your paranoia is getting the better of you again.  

You have an amazing ability to know what "everybody" else thinks and understands.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2013, 09:35:47 PM »
Quote
A carry of 173 in 1899, 1929 or 1949 was still substantial, especially considering the prevailing wind.

I agree to disagree on this point.

How can you disagree, you've never seen the hole, let alone played it.
You don't know how high the back berm on that bunker is, which makes the carry longer.

So, it's your contention that a carry of 173 wasn't a challenge in 1899 ?
1929 ?
1949 ?

Into prevailing winds off the Atlantic Ocean ?


As to the rest, your paranoia is getting the better of you again.

Every time you lose a debate, you resort to desperate tactics, but, I understand you need to save face.
 

You have an amazing ability to know what "everybody" else thinks and understands.

That's called "reading comprehension".
Perhaps you should be more careful with regard to what you type.
No need to contemplate what you think when you reduce your thoughts to written words.


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2013, 03:13:10 AM »
How many times did YOU play GCGC in 1899, or 1929, or 1949?  How substantial a challenge was a carry of 173 yards for YOU in those years?  Find some contemporaneous report about players' capabilities to carry that kind of distance in any of those years and I'll be persuaded.

What's the elevation change from tee to bunker?  How high in the back berm?  What percentage of time does the hole play into the prevailing wind?  What's the average velocity of the prevailing wind?  

Might there be some conditions under which a 173 yard carry might have bee a challenge a century or a half century ago?  Sure.  Happy now?   ;D


Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2013, 09:23:26 AM »
Saw this on the Southern Hills review and thought it was valid for this thread

Ninth hole, 375/360 yards; Knowing when to move a bunker built by a master architect from the Golden Age requires finesse. Few restorers are more artful than Foster. On this hole Maxwell’s lone fairway bunker had been rendered meaningless by advancements in technology. Since it wasn’t cut into a landform, Foster was free to push it back. He also edged it more into the fairway. Without doubt, Maxwell would have done the same if he was alive today. Thus, job well done by Foster.

Pretty high praise for the concept of taking a now obsolete bunker and restoring the original shot value created by the architect.

Mike

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2013, 09:26:09 AM »

How many times did YOU play GCGC in 1899, or 1929, or 1949?  How substantial a challenge was a carry of 173 yards for YOU in those years?  Find some contemporaneous report about players' capabilities to carry that kind of distance in any of those years and I'll be persuaded.
I'm not concerned nor interested in persuading you, since you aren't open to being persuaded because your intent is that of a contrarian irrespective of the evidence presented (charcoal layer for one)

As to contemporaneous reports, I have an enormous advantage over you.
I was fortunate to have a father who was a highly skilled golfer, who played in numerous U.S. Amateurs, U.S. Opens and many other international, national, regional, state and local tournaments. And, he took me with him when he played in those events, events such as the 1949 U.S. Open, the 1952 British Amateur, the 1952 French Amateur, the Canadian and many U.S. Amateurs.

In addition, discussions at the dinner table often involved golf and everything about golf, including distance, ball flight, equipment, courses and players.   I was also taken to clubs/course/events and introduced to Sam Snead, Tommy Armour, Tonney Penna, Vic Ghezzi, Frank Stranahan, Gary Player and others when they played with my dad, so I was able to observe and have some interaction with players of note.
Hence, I believe that my opinions are based on an abundance of information and first and second hand experience.


What's the elevation change from tee to bunker?  How high in the back berm?  What percentage of time does the hole play into the prevailing wind?  What's the average velocity of the prevailing wind?  

How can you pretend to speak on the 16th hole at GCGC if you don't know the answer to those questions ?
How can you make definitive statements regarding the 16th hole when you know so little about it and all of the factors that influence play of it ? ?


Might there be some conditions under which a 173 yard carry might have bee a challenge a century or a half century ago?  Sure.  Happy now?   ;D


Get a cool damp breeze in your face and it'll be a challenge for you today, especially when there's a dire consequence associated with failure.
 

« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:29:05 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2013, 09:32:15 AM »
Michael,

Thanks, that's the crux of this thread.

Perhaps Southern Hills ignored Bryan Izatt's advice and counsel and decided that restoring the original intent of the bunker was more important. ;D

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2013, 09:37:29 AM »
Saw this on the Southern Hills review and thought it was valid for this thread

Ninth hole, 375/360 yards; Knowing when to move a bunker built by a master architect from the Golden Age requires finesse. Few restorers are more artful than Foster. On this hole Maxwell’s lone fairway bunker had been rendered meaningless by advancements in technology. Since it wasn’t cut into a landform, Foster was free to push it back. He also edged it more into the fairway. Without doubt, Maxwell would have done the same if he was alive today. Thus, job well done by Foster.

Pretty high praise for the concept of taking a now obsolete bunker and restoring the original shot value created by the architect.

Mike

Good note Mike!  I made a similar comment back on page 1 regarding Philadelphia Cricket and Foster moving the bunkers to restore shot values.  It didnt drum up any meaningful conversation though. :-\
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2013, 12:24:11 PM »
Patrick,

Was your dad challenged by the 173 yard carry at GCGC,or anywhere else, in 1949.  I assume he was too young to have been playing in 1929 or certainly in 1899.

Sure, in cold heavy air and into a 30 mph wind, a 173 yard carry would be a challenge for me.  If that's your parameters for 1899, 1929 or 1949, then sure it would be a challenge.

I can be convinced, when there is convincing proof.   ;)


Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2013, 05:18:42 PM »
It seems to me an attempt to recreate the intent of the DZ (however that is being defined) would not be limited to simply moving the complex of bunkers in the middle and right side of the fairway.  Doing that actually would create another problem.  Moving them closer to the green would create a disconnect with the historical spatial relationship that complex has with the bunkers on the left side, the ones further down the fairway.  In other words, doing nothing else besides moving the bunkers on the right further down the fairway would narrow the DZ considerably, creating a situation that is completely unharmonious with the original intent.  An alternative, of course, would be to also move the three bunkers on the left further down the fairway, but then you have increased both the scope and cost of the work, and (as Brian Izatt has mentioned) have still left yourself in a situation whereby even though you have potentially regained the shot value(s) of the drive, there is nothing you can do to regain the original shot value(s) of the second shot.  Pat has reinforced the fact that there is no more land available, and the green cannot be moved.  That said, I am just not convinced that metaphor of a "half loaf" of bread that Pat has used is enough to justify any work, especially when Pat admits (in Reply 65) that even today, with the right weather conditions and the right pressure situation, these bunkers actually can challenge modern players.

Yet another alternative solution to this "so-called" problem would simply be to stop using modern equipment when you play courses with otherwise antiquated features such as being discussed.  I suspect that if any of us picked up a set of hickory-shafted clubs and a haskell ball (or even a ball that predates these) and played GCGC we would have all the challenge we would need.  And, moreover, this alternative eliminates any need to undertake unnecessary, and potentially disfiguring, alterations to what is effectively a living museum of golf course architectural history.  
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 06:57:17 PM by Steve Burrows »
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2013, 10:29:53 PM »
Patrick,

Was your dad challenged by the 173 yard carry at GCGC,or anywhere else, in 1949.  


Yes.

You seem oblivious to how golf was played in earlier times, such as 1949 or 1929.
You seem to be equating how the game is played today with how it was played in 1949 and 1929.
Drives were not hit with howitzer like trajectories, especially on firm fairways, like they are today.
Often the trajectory of a drive was a low flighted draw/hook that would run forever.
And with a low flighted drive, carry distances were much shorter.
In addition, vertical hazards, like raised berms on the back of bunkers, created a greater hazard to those low flighted drives, versus today's howitzer like drives.

Wind also had a more pronounced effect on balls, including drives.
Ball flight off a driver would also be a low line drive trajectory that would rise sharply and then fall to the ground.
Few, if any had any inkling of "launch angles".

So the features you ridicule, even at a distance of 173 yards, posed a meaningful threat to the golfer on the tee.


I assume he was too young to have been playing in 1929 or certainly in 1899.

That's part of the problem you have, you make assumptions not grounded in facts.
In 1929 my father was an accomplished golfer


Sure, in cold heavy air and into a 30 mph wind, a 173 yard carry would be a challenge for me.  

In a cold, heavy air wind of 30 mph, 140 yards would be a challenging carry for you.
And, I didn't say cold, I said cool, and I wasn't referencing 30 mph winds.
The typical winds that sweep GCGC are sufficient enough to add to the difficulty of the 173 yard carry


If that's your parameters for 1899, 1929 or 1949, then sure it would be a challenge.

You know that those are YOUR parameters, not mine


I can be convinced, when there is convincing proof.   ;)

A man convinced against his will, is unconvinced still  ;D



Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2013, 11:04:58 PM »


It seems to me an attempt to recreate the intent of the DZ (however that is being defined) would not be limited to simply moving the complex of bunkers in the middle and right side of the fairway.  Doing that actually would create another problem.  Moving them closer to the green would create a disconnect with the historical spatial relationship that complex has with the bunkers on the left side, the ones further down the fairway.  In other words, doing nothing else besides moving the bunkers on the right further down the fairway would narrow the DZ considerably, creating a situation that is completely unharmonious with the original intent.  

Steve, I'm not so sure of that in that the DZ is pretty generous.
In addition, the ball goes much straighter today.
The bunkers are also "offset", and that "offset" could be achieved further down the fairway.

I don't know that anyone is claiming that the identical function/configuration would be returned.
In geometric terms, I think you can achieve a similar, but not a congruent configuration


An alternative, of course, would be to also move the three bunkers on the left further down the fairway, but then you have increased both the scope and cost of the work,

I don't think that would be a major impediment.
Alternatively, you could just add bunkers on the left, while keeping the current bunkers



and (as Brian Izatt has mentioned) have still left yourself in a situation whereby even though you have potentially regained the shot value(s) of the drive, there is nothing you can do to regain the original shot value(s) of the second shot.  

I stated that, early on.
I also reiterated that point when I stated that a half a loaf is better than none.


Pat has reinforced the fact that there is no more land available, and the green cannot be moved.  That said, I am just not convinced that metaphor of a "half loaf" of bread that Pat has used is enough to justify any work, especially when Pat admits (in Reply 65) that even today, with the right weather conditions and the right pressure situation, these bunkers actually can challenge modern players.

There are two issues.
The concept or architectural/playability issue
Cost justification.
It's been my limited experience that if the concept is accepted, the money will be raised.
One only has to look at # 12 for proof.


Yet another alternative solution to this "so-called" problem would simply be to stop using modern equipment when you play courses with otherwise antiquated features such as being discussed.

That's not a practical or even a remote possibility at the local level.
Only a USGA sanctioned rollback would accomplish what you suggest.

I think the problem you and others may be having is that you're ignoring the concept and confining your thoughts to a hole I merely offered as an example


I suspect that if any of us picked up a set of hickory-shafted clubs and a haskell ball (or even a ball that predates these) and played GCGC we would have all the challenge we would need.  

I think you're correct and will have Mike Policano and other hickory players play the course in the Spring.
I think that will be a neat experiment, not just on# 16, but other holes as well, even from the "member" tees.


And, moreover, this alternative eliminates any need to undertake unnecessary, and potentially disfiguring, alterations to what is effectively a living museum of golf course architectural history.  

While I generally agree, it's not going to happen.
You won't convert/transition play from modern equipment to hickories.

But your point brings a viable alternative into play, an alternative that isn't greeted with open arms by many.
Lengthening at the tee end where possible.
On # 16, you're land locked, but that's not a universal, although many of the holes with carry bunkers have limited length available.
#'s 1, 2, 7, 9, 10, 11, 16 and 17 have very limited room to extend the carries.

But again, the concept and discussion shouldn't be confined to a few holes at GCGC


Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2013, 11:44:23 PM »
Patrick,

I think of Garden City and Myopia Hunt as two really great early US championship courses. Which Architect was more forward thinking Travis or Leeds?

Travis- lots of fairway bunkers creating shot values.

Leeds- few fairway bunkers but punishing fescue borders.

Myopia Hunt Club is barely changed from it's inception, yet in Massachusetts Amateur Championships it plays very tough still today. Tougher then the Country Club by a couple of strokes. Yet, it has few fairway bunkers. It turns out that the high fescue rough bordering all the holes punish mishits whether they go 190 yards or 350 yards.

I'm not advocating any changes to Garden City. In fact If I were a member I would oppose major revisions to the historic course. I am suggesting that fairway bunkers might be overrated as providing good shot values over a long period of time. Myopia is a joy to play today without a all the white faces attempting to dictate corridors.

Just some food for thought.

Malcolm

« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 11:58:35 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2013, 12:31:45 AM »
Malcolm,

GCGC also has punishing fescue borders, but, the fairways are very generous.

There have been some changes to GCGC over the last 63 years, like the 5th and 14th holes and some added tee length, but, it essentially remains as it's been from its early years.

Emmett/Travis incorporated barriers to length, such as the cross bunkers found on a number of holes.
Some of those cross bunkers, such as on # 17 have lost some of their influence.
Others, like # 10 and # 15 have retained their influence.

Scores posted in an annual tournament which attracts superior amateur players, have been coming down over the years as I&B have improved.

Other than the convex bunkers ( a rare feature) there are no white faces as most bunkers are well below grade, with many, if not most, requiring ladders to access.

I think too many are caught up with the pedigree.

If the 16th hole being discussed was on Northampton CC, a ten year old course, I think the impetus to either relocate the bunker/s or introduce addtional bunkers, would be overwhelming.


Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If a fairway bunker is no longer relevant for most play, should
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2013, 06:41:00 AM »
the bunker be moved, or should the bunker be left intact with a new, similar bunker introduced in the DZ to replicate the intent of the original bunker ?
Does this thread apply to the Mac bunker at 10 ANGC?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

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