NGLA and SHCC

[Patrick_Mucci]

SHCC is one of the very few courses that can host a US Open and member play without much in modification to the golf course and without changing par.

There aren't many courses that can make that claim.

It remains a spectacular US Open venue, especially with the prevailing winds that sweep the site.

In it's present form, NGLA doesn't have the length to host a US Open, but, it did host the Walker Cup rather successfully.
And, it continues to offer more than adequate challenge from its red and green tees for its membership and guests.

Both courses offer ample width, although, when the Open comes to town, fairways are narrowed and the rough allowed to grow.

I've often wondered, if NGLA had the length, what kind of test would it present to the best golfers in the world ?

Is length not only the defining element in a golf course that hosts the PGA Tour or US Open, but, the only one that presents a substantive challenge ?

At par 70 and about 7,000+ yards, SHCC is adding significant length for the 2018 Open.

And I was told that distance had been maxed out a few years ago ?  ?  ?

[Steve Salmen]

I think 2,3,4,5,6,16 will be considerably longer than the red markers. 5 tee Is going to be on the other side of the 18th hole possibly creating delays.  I don't think this added length would be much fun for member play.

[Jim Nugent]

Scores at NGLA during the Walker Cup were very high.  Lots of guys won matches shooting over par.  I recall maybe one round of about 6 under.  

Walker Cup players aren't quite the top in the world, but they aren't real far off, either.  Made me wonder how much NGLA really would have to change, to hold a U.S. Open.  

A couple questions:

1.  How much do you think NGLA would have to stretch out for the U.S. Open?

2.  Does the club have that extra land, if it so chose?

3.  Could NGLA handle the infrastructure/crowds for a U.S. Open?

4.  Would the club like to host an Open?  

If the USGA wanted something different, they could hold the U.S. Open on both Shinnie and NGLA.  Two rounds on each.  Probably plenty of infrastructure, and might not have to change a thing at NGLA that way.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would much rather see NGLA host a US Open than Shinnecock, I just feel it has more variety both in terms of the holes but also the visual landcape - what were they shooting at the Walker Cup? (roughly speaking)

Brian,

It was interesting.
When there was no wind and in the practice rounds, the golfers appeared fearless and very aggressive with their play.

When the bell rang and the wind came up, things changed.

At match play, if the opponent made a birdie or a par to win the hole and the competitor was going to make a higher score, they usually picked up, but there were plenty of high score incidents.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, on reflection, I  sense it's best not to campaign for National Golf Links to host an Open. Leave well enough alone!

Brian,

I don't think you have to worry.

I recently played there with some fellows who had never played NGLA and they were blown away by the course.

While the course will yield birdies, a careless or poorly thought out or poorly executed shot can yield a high score

On the first hole, with the flag cut frontish right, one fellow, after a good drive hit a wedge 10 feet to the right of the flag and it rolled into the bunker.   From there he played pong, going back and forth across the green until he finally made an 8.

In the afternoon, with an identical tee shot, he hit it 15 feet long and left of the cup and made birdie.

A five shot difference caused by an overly aggressive or misjudged or mishit approach

That's the beauty of NGLA.

And, the hole locations were fantastic.

The course remains a pure joy to play.

2 club wind from the east all day and it was on the cool side, greens F&F and about 11.5,  but
I did manage to go 3, 3, 3 on #'s 6, 7 and 8 for a nice highlight of a round.

Our only regret was that we ran out of sunlight, as we could have played for 24 hours straight that day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scores at NGLA during the Walker Cup were very high.  Lots of guys won matches shooting over par.  I recall maybe one round of about 6 under.  

Walker Cup players aren't quite the top in the world, but they aren't real far off, either.  Made me wonder how much NGLA really would have to change, to hold a U.S. Open.  

A couple questions:

1.  How much do you think NGLA would have to stretch out for the U.S. Open?

     When you consider that SHCC is 7,000+ par 70 and is lengthening holes for 2018, probably to 7,400 or more, that should answer the
     question

2.  Does the club have that extra land, if it so chose?
    
    Not on a lot of holes

3.  Could NGLA handle the infrastructure/crowds for a U.S. Open?

    With it's out and back nature, I think you'd have to restrict attendees, like Merion.

4.  Would the club like to host an Open?  

     I couldn't speak for the club, but, I would think not.
     I think the Walker Cup was a perfect event for the club/course

If the USGA wanted something different, they could hold the U.S. Open on both Shinnie and NGLA.  Two rounds on each.  Probably plenty of infrastructure, and might not have to change a thing at NGLA that way.

Interesting concept  

[John Shimp]

As a simple edit, its SHGC not SHCC.

[David Panzarasa]

Didn't SHCC beat up on the players last time they played the US Open there? I cant see how the players will fair any better this time around (hence I dont see a reason to lengthen the holes at all).  

When they played last time, you had long hitters, and as usual it was Phil Mickelson, although he didn't win, was in the hunt, as well as the usual suspects for the US Open. I would love to see them not add a single yard, see how the players score, (I venture even par will be the "mark") and then discussions on great courses and how they hold up over time will be the discussion.

Do they really think they have to add yards to the course? Players will do that much better today then from when Retief Goosen won? I can't see it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

They're adding significant yardage, hence the course will play longer than the last Open.

Shinnecock, and the test it presents can be mostly determined and influenced by Mother Nature.

The last time I played there, there was a cool two club wind from the east.

To give you an example of it's influence, on # 9, after hitting a good drive to about 160, I hit a solid 2-iron that came up short.

The day before, with the same wind, from the elevated tee on # 6 at NGLA, from 114, I hit 7-iron.

In June the prevailing wind is from the South or Southwest, but it can change direction and velocity, and it can abate, which then makes distance the significant factor.

[JESII]

Disappointed to hear SH is adding that much length. Nothing worse to me than knowing how much time and energy goes into adding back tees for a US Open that don't get used but maybe one round.

While I also disagree with Mike Davis' concept of graduated rough, I really hate the idea of moving tee boxes around as dramatically as he does. It actually does scar the landscape to add the back tee in the first place...if it's for one round of play, maybe we can forego it and suffer with scores 1/10th of a stroke lower...

[Mike Hendren]

It's possible that the Walker Cup was not the best barometer for National Golf Links of America's ability to defend par.  Match play between testosterone laden young amateurs might not be the best litmus test for gauging the medal scores of the world's best players who are likely far more disciplined and measured in their approach to the game.  They make a living picking their spots.

On the other hand, I found Shinnecock Hills to be an unrelenting test of golf throughout the bag.  As I've stated before, more than any other course I've played it made he wish I was a better player (or at least as good as I once was).  It simply doesn't suffer fools - whereas it's neighbor not only accomodates but embraces all levels of play, as high a compliment as a course can earn in my book.   While National Golf Links of America is a blast, only a polyanic professional (not that there are any) would find Shinnecock Hills even remotely "fun."  

As a golf course, arguably National Golf Links of America has no business hosting a U. S. Open.  On the other hand, arguably Shinnecock Hills is the best U. S. Open venue in the country (or so I thought until I visited Merion during the championship - it is simply more balanced than Shinnecock Hills IMHO).  

Just a few thoughts.

Bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I'd strenuously disagree with you.

Shinnecock could host the US Open tomorrow, with no amendments, no gimmickie set ups, and it would present an enjoyable test for the members the day before and the day after the Open.   Merion can't do that, it has to undergo a metamorphosis, it has to transition in and out of USOpen mode.   Shinnecock needs no such transformation, it is as pure a golf course for every level of golfer as there is.

And Shinnecock is fun, for every level of golfer.
One just has to select the appropriate tees.
We played the green tees on a cool day with at least a one to two, and sometimes more, club wind out of the East, and everyone had a ball.
Plenty of birdies and pars and bogies, but not many, if any, doubles or worse.

Those fellows playing in the Walker Cup are phenomenal golfers, don't sell them short.
And, you still have to play the "hole" at match play.

If distance has maxed out, as many claim, why the need to continue to lengthen golf courses ?

[Mike Hendren]

Mike,

I'd strenuously disagree with you.

So I've got that going for me.

Mike

[David_Tepper]

Based on Tom Doak's comments in his Confidential Guide, you could make a comparison between San Francisco GC and Olympic Lake similar to NLGLA and SHCC. The former is a enjoyable to play "members' course" and the later is a demanding course that could test the best players in the world on a week's notice.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm finding, fortified by Guiness and shrimp (and a wee bit, I'll confess, of turron de alicante) that PM posts have the following sequence:

PM thinks of a notion that no one can refute...

He knows the alpha and the omega...

He posts and waits, like a panther, in the foliage...

Makes me wonder what he is like in the court room~

[jeffwarne]

Why is it almost virtually accepted that as good as NGLA is, that it would not be a good "Championship" test for pros?
#1 is not a good test of judgement,accuracy, nerve, length, distance control, and magical short game skill.
2 ditto
3 ditto
4 a green runnning away where a shot must be shaped, created, or judged perfectly
Need I go on?

Sure we could say the par 5's are short. so call them something else
they've already reduced #5
So change the par on 7 (it's template is a converted par 5) It's a great, and testing hole.
Find a few more back tees if need be and have at it.

If we insist on "testing" the pros, and refuse to downsize equipment, we better get ready for a steady diet of Erin Hills, and 5 + hour rounds.
(which is not really fair because i really enjoyed Erin Hills)

[Jim Nugent]

If they got NGLA running real F&F, and chose some particularly testing pin placements, and stretched out a few holes, could it challenge the pro's and defend par as well as Merion did?   

[Jason Thurman]

Merion didn't challenge pros or defend par. Mike Davis' setup did.

From almost 7000 yards, if you told Mike Davis to make NGLA stand up to par, he could do it. He might shrink fairways to 10 yard wide strips surrounded by 10 inch rough and kill the greens in the process. Give a few years' notice and he might mandate that a few tees get put in on practice greens or something like that. And he'd no doubt reduce par to 70. But if Davis is in the picture, damn near any course in the country can defend par. There's really no limit to his willingness to bastardize the game of golf for the sake of being able to see a + next to the leading number on Sunday.

That being said, how good a test can a course that gives up the odd 61 or so in a tournament provide? Regardless of whether or not NGLA could defend par, could it still test the totality of a pro's game without resorting to gimmicky setup tricks? I don't think a pro shooting a low score on a hot day necessarily means that the course wasn't a good test.

[Jim Nugent]

Jason, I think defending par is ridiculous and misguided.   But it seems to be the USGA's mandate.  

NGLA posed all the challenge the Walker Cuppers could handle.  It amazed me to see how many over par rounds won matches.  Few shot under par, with only one real low round that I recall.  

That makes me wonder if the course could give the pro's trouble, too, without "Davis-izing" it, but instead making the pin placements more diabolical, turning some par 5s into par 4s as Jeff suggests, and lengthening some of the holes.  

I looked at NGLA on Google Earth.  Seems like there is room to stretch a number of holes.  Problem is, I don't know the topography, and can't tell if there really is that kind of room.  

Sharing the Open between NGLA and Shinnie gets around a lot of these issues.      

[Mike Hendren]

Merion didn't challenge pros or defend par. Mike Davis' setup did.

I respectfully disagree.  Sure, the rough was high, but likely no higher than at any other championship in recent memory.  I played tougher rough last week in West Tennessee.    Sure, the narrowing of the 2nd and 11th fairways was silly as was the landing zone at 18.  Possibly, the sum total of Davis' handiwork added a total of 2 to 4 strokes over the course of four days.  

I wish Merion had been left alone.  I think the course is good enough to defend itself as there is so much great architecture there and the greens are vastly underrated among the world's greatest courses.  Davis' use of the term "boutique" was grossly inaccurate and an afront to Hugh Puff Daddy Wilson.

Bogey

[DMoriarty]

Bogey, 

Part of the problem with looking at whether Merion was "Davisized" is trying to figure when to start looking at the changes.  You list the last minute changes, but they have been adding tees and making changes for one USGA event or another over more than a decade, haven't they?  How about the tees on the 3rd, 9th, 14th, and 18th, for example?  And as TD noted, greens were altered as well.   So when we think of the un-Davisized version, we've got to go back to quite a while before the Amateur, don't we?   And even then the course was quite a lot different that it was historically. 

It would be interesting to know what would have happened at the un-Davisized version, but the USGA wasn't willing to let the architecture stand up for itself. 

[Mike Hendren]

David, excellent point.  I just sensed that most of the whining from the treehouse was directed at the most recent round (the "last minute changes) of Davisizing, primarily among those of us who have not delved into Merion's evolution as deeply as you and a handful of other have.  

Bogey

[JESII]

Bogey, 

Part of the problem with looking at whether Merion was "Davisized" is trying to figure when to start looking at the changes.

Unfortunately true across the board these days.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,  I generally agree although perhaps NGLA is perhaps of an exception.

Bogey, Some of the "whining from the treehouse" about Merion was perhaps a bit misdirected when it came to fairway widths. I played Merion about a decade ago and I thought it was narrow and the rough was thick then.   But it wasn't always that way.

[JESII]

David,

NGLA would not go untouched if it ever signed up for a US Open...sorry to say.

I received a cryptic voicemail from some guy studying some kind of Hunger Games type society that says Merion went from 1934 until 1999 or 2000 basically untouched. That covers 3 US Opens and an Amateur and probably 5 other USGA events.