[Frank Pasquale]

Just played a practice round today, to prepare for the upcoming MGA "IKE" Championship.  I wanted to get some opinions from those of you who have played the course.  Any comments, advice, etc, is appreciated.

-Frank

[rgkeller]

Bring a high draw with your driver to the tournament.

[Greg Stebbins]

Frank,

I played my practice round at Meadow Brook last week.  Lag putting will be very important.. those greens are huge!

[TEPaul]

I'm from Long Island and I go so far back I remember Meadowbrook before it was a golf club or course. The whole place belonged to the Whitons, my mother's best friends--the clubhouse was the Whiton's house. I remember when they were building the golf course. My Dad was there for years. I think Meadowbrook is one of Dick Wilson's very best designs--the course is transition architecture of the finest and most interesting of that that transition era. Wilson did architecture there that really flowed with the land and he left his own unique architectural wrinkle as well. Some of those greens (not all) are the biggest I've ever known. That alone makes for some thinking vis-a-vis playability. It's a neat golf course! Very much it's own kind!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Frank,

I think MeadowBrook is an exceptional golf course, especially when you consider that some of the original holes were sold off or abandoned, yet the course remains very strong.

Practicing lag putting is good advice.

It's a big golf course that could probably host an Open.

Have a good time, I hope the weather improves for everyone's sake.

[TEPaul]

"I think MeadowBrook is an exceptional golf course, especially when you consider that some of the original holes were sold off or abandoned, yet the course remains very strong."

Pat:

That's news to me! What holes of the present originally constructed Meadowbrook were sold off or abandoned? As far as I know the course that was built by Dick Wilson in the 1950s is the course that Meadowbrook is today. Perhaps you're thinking of the course that the original Meadowbrook golf club sold when they moved to their present site.

[SPDB]

For the IKE are they playing the course in its normal order, or are they swapping the nines like they did for the Seniors Tournament? Never understood why they did that, the 18th at Meadow Brook is a terrifically exciting finisshing hole. Take your par there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

When you play there you can see some of the abandoned holes, others I believe were on land that was sold off.
I'll try to find out more about those holes.  I believe that you can see them from the 2nd tee or 4th tee.

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul:

Patrick is correct!!!

At least 3 holes (perhaps 4) on the south end of the property from Wilson's original were sacrificed to a developer's siren call for $$$$ sometime during the 1960's.  There is now a glass office building where those holes used to be.  There was at least 1 practice hole that was kept up for awhile but I believe lack of interest + cost containment ultimately did that in, too.

I do not know which holes were added/altered to make the current layout what it is nor do I know if Dick Wilson was the architect for that project.

[SPDB]

Chip?Pat/Tom - the practice hole is still there. You can see it as you play up 1, and from the 2nd Tee. I didn't know there were 4 holes scrapped. Which holes replaced them?

Frank - Be below the hole (if possible) on #5 an #9, which is not easy, given that both are blind shots.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's the aerial of Meadow Brook, which was AOTD #266.
You can see the practice hole at the bottom middle by the parking lot.



and the AOTD #266 thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1039444100

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Do you see how much you can learn if you'll just listen to me  

I thought you said you grew up around Meadow Brook.

Anyone playing the golf course can see the old hole, how did you miss it ?

Perhaps some of us are just keener observers than others  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Patrick,

The photo may have been taken in 2000-2001 time frame
(the 2002 copyright doesn't have anything to do with when
the pic was taken), long enough ago so that the hole could
be gone now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

TEPaul grew up nearby, and played the golf course before 2001-2002.

You have to understand, that if you don't point out architectural features to him, he doesn't see them.

His only saving grace is his seeing eye dog, Cooreshaw, who sits when he arrives at a significant feature, hoping his aimless master will recognize some golf feature and not fall into a bunker.

How do you think TEPaul coined the phrase "blind taste test"?

He was walking along the beach near Maidstone, first, looking for his ball, and then, abandoning that task, looking for the pool, and fell into the ocean.  At first, he thought it was an unusual hazard, for a par 3.  After Cooreshaw pulled him from the water, he spit out enough seaweed and salt water to discover that they had not resurfaced the pool area, but that he in fact, was on a sandy beach next to the ocean.  
It was the taste of the salt water that finally clued him in.

Hence, the "blind taste test" was born.

You didn't think he thought that up by himself, did you ?

[SPDB]

The hole is still there, or at least was in October, when I last played. They maintain it as 300 yard practice hole.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Those holes that show up on an early aerial would be interesting to look into.  I don't exactly remember them per se but back in the mid 1950s when the golf course was just beginning construction I do remember going out there. That was pretty boring flat open land in my recollection and it backed up on that highway back there and there was quite a lot of highway noise over there. But the thing was whatever was built at that time sort of centered around a tiny little one room house that sat at the end of that lane you can still see in the aerial above that terminated right behind #3 green.

And the other thing that was interesting is the Whitons still lived in their house that's now the clubhouse. Mr & Mrs Whiton were getting a divorce (Emmy Whiton was my mother's closest friend in life), so obviously the club was acquiring additonal land or had planned it that way all alone. (you do know that Meadowbrook was in the process of moving from their former course?).

What I'm saying is it wouldn't surprise me at all if those holes that once were out in that area behind #1, 2, 3 where those buildings and that parking lot are now were just temporary holes. My Dad belonged to Meadow Brook and I remember going out to that tiny little house when he practiced. But the majority of the course (that which is now on the Whiton's old place was just beginning construction). Herman Whiton and I who were about 11 years old used to drive this old milk truck he had all over the construction site and get into trouble with the crews!!

So what I'm implying is I think it might be safe to say that all the holes that are present day Meadow Brook holes are Dick Wilson holes and probably originally planned Dick Wilson holes.

But the evolution of the beginning of that club would be interesting to look into anyway. My mother might even remember it. Obviously I can't ask my father.

Meadowbrook back then was the first place I ever took a golf lesson too, probably right about that time when I was about 12 years old just as it opened. Do you remember the original pro Shelley Mayfield? That's the one I took the lesson from. By then the Whiton's house was the clubhouse. The clubhouse itself is completely unchanged and is just the way I remembered it when the Whiton's lived there.  

[TEPaul]

Pretty funny post there Pat about Cooreshaw and the blind taste test but the fact is you probably know far less about what those original holes back there were for than I do.

You seem to be assuming they were holes that were lost off of Wilson's original Meadow Brook but can you really prove that?

I'll probably be able to figure it out after a while but if I were to guess now I'd say they were probably just a couple of little temporary holes before the Meadow Brook course of Dick Wilson's got built!

[SPDB]

By then the Whiton's house was the clubhouse. The clubhouse itself is completely unchanged and is just the way I remembered it when the Whiton's lived there.  

Amazing what some of those old Gold Coast families would have at there homes. People must have thought the Whitons were crazy to have built a locker room and a bar on the east wing of their home.  

All kidding aside, its a nice locker room though. reminds me of GMGC's actually, in its understated-ness

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Bars in some of those houses were very important. Some of those old Long Island guys were definitely professionals when it came to drinking. All I'm saying is the rooms, although used differently now were just the way they still are. I particularly remember the old kitchen porch because one time Herman and Charlie Whiton and I were under the kitchen lighting matches and Mrs Whiton caught use and said; "Come with me." She took use up to the kitchen porch got some of those old blue tipped matches out of the kitchen and individually singed our fingers--obviously hurt like holy hell! Those were the days when some parents didn't take any shit at all from there children. Do you think that disturbed my mother? Not at all--she said it served us right and actually she thought it was pretty funny. I know I never played with matches again.

But Herman and I and that old 1929 milk truck of his and driving around on the course under construction---well, I shouldn't even mention that on this site. It was out and out vandalism and one time Herman drove across one of the green shapes and right into a bunker and almost flipped the truck. That stunt probably added that perfect nuance of internal contour to the green and character to that bunker too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

By luck, I ran into a member of Meadow Brook today.
We spoke about the abandoned holes.
He indicated that he would send me the history of their demise and the history of the new holes.

When I examined the remaining hole when I played there a few years ago, it looked anything but temporary.  The fact that it still exists may give weight to its permanancy.

As soon as this fellow sends me the info, I'll forward it to you.

The clubhouse is elegant, from an elegant era.

[ChipOat]

Patrick:

Instead of just forwarding the info on to TEP, please give The Treehouse a report on a separate thread.

[TEPaul]

"I think MeadowBrook is an exceptional golf course, especially when you consider that some of the original holes were sold off or abandoned, yet the course remains very strong."

Pat:

Perhaps, just perhaps it's too early for you to conclude that those holes behind #1 and #3 greens were original holes in the routing and design of what Meadow Brook is. They may have been but it's certainly possible that they may not have been. Was the golf course that's there today built by Dick Wilson at a particular time? That's probably the best question. Frankly, those old holes on the topography and part of the property that they were on never looked very exciting or interesting to me--even in 1955. It was pretty bland out there in that section and again it was pretty noisy over there. It may be of interest that one of the best things that ever happened to Dick Wilson and Meadow Brook was the Whitons got divorced around 1955 and sold the place.

[TEPaul]

Very interesting. Just talked to my mother who not only filled me in about the Whitons owning what now is Meadow Brook G.C. but way before that! My mother had another old, old friend, Kitty Nelson, whose aunt a Mrs Burrill owned the entire property of what now is Meadow Brook and much much more. My mother said Mrs Burrill might have owned up to 1000 acres there extending well past the Jericho Turnpike (obviously before it was there). So my mother when she was a little girl used to go play with Kitty Nelson there--and get this--Mrs Burrill had a private 9 hole golf course that surrounded her enormous house--what's now the Meadow Brook clubhouse.

Mrs Burrill died in the late 1940s and my mother's closest friend, Emmy Whiton and her husband Swede Whiton bought the place. They got divorced in the mid 1950s and obviously sold the place to the Meadow Brook club which was in the process of moving from their former Devereux Emmet Meadowbrook course and polo club in Westbury.

And further, my mother remembers playing the old Dev Emmett Meadow Brook course in Westbury. She said it was absolutely lovely with long grass waving in the wind all around the course with beautiful streams and such that was right across from the Meadow Brook club's polo fields.

For those who may not be aware of polo--apparently the Meadow Brook polo team of that time was the strongest polo team ever fielded. It consisted of a team (four players) each of which was a ten goaler. One of that team, a Stewart Iglehart, was also a great friend of my family from both Long Island and later Delray Beach Florida and Gulf Stream G.C. Stewart told me once that as far as he knew a 40 goal polo team (Meadow Brook's) had never before or since been fielded. It also included one of the Bostwicks and Tommy Hitchcock, considered to be the finest polo player in the history of the sport. Stewart was probably considered to be the finest rider the sport knew (he grew up in Argentina with the gauchos!).

Stewart Iglehart called this team and their high level of polo "high speed" polo and he said they played all over the country and even in distant parts of the world and they were virtually unbeatable. But here's the ironic oddity. He said at one point they were in the Mid-West (I think most of them were in and around the Army cavalry base of Fort Devens in Kansas maybe at the beginning of WW2?) and they'd play pick up polo games with the cowboys and their quarterhorses and Stewart said we undeniably could beat any formal polo team in the world but we could never beat those Cowboys!!

Amazing stuff and a fascinating time. And then they moved from their Westbury club to Meadow Brook G.C. in Jericho built by Dick Wilson (definitely a Florida connection with all these people!) and that was the beginning of the end of the incredible power of the Meadow Brook polo club and probably Long Island polo. Of course about 40 years before that one  whipper snapper architect named C.B. MacDonald had the affrontery to take on the polo interests at Piping Rock and attempt to use their polo fields for golf holes. That didn't work, they confronted him, they kept their polo fields (today's massive practice range at Piping Rock), C.B quit the project in frustration and the architectural career of one Seth Raynor was launched bigtime!

[SPDB]

I've heard recently that the redesign/additional work was done by Joe Lee. Not surprising given he worked for Wilson. The work was done in the early 60s, not too long after the course opened in 1955.

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