[Marty Bonnar]

While they weren't exactly contemporaries, I was just wondering if their paths ever crossed in Dornoch or in the States.
Any knowledge here?
F.

[JNagle]

Great question.  Makes me wonder if they did, could it have been at the development of Rolling Rock or Allegheny C.C.  Frick's social club the South Fork Hunting and Fishing Club was North of Johnstown and therefore not far from Rolling Rock which was developed by the Mellon family.  There is also Edgewood C.C. in Pittsburgh an original Ross design.  Would seem the possibility exists considering Carnegie's social dealings with the wealthiest of the wealthy (he being at the top).

http://books.google.com/books?id=8KfDXSBSGZgC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=Private+Golf+Clubs+of+Andrew+Carnegie&source=bl&ots=P4FaIo4SJN&sig=3SrG139cdhYhFuWAIhJyx5Q6gcg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kwpXUpT8JZHe4APoxIHoDw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Private%20Golf%20Clubs%20of%20Andrew%20Carnegie&f=false

[Marty Bonnar]

Exactly, J,
Carnegie didn't really get into golf until late in life, but given his New York and Dornoch connections, I just wondered if they hadn't met at some time.
I'm back working in Dunfermline (Carnegie's birthplace) regenerating the splendid Pittencrieff Park, which he gifted to the townsfolk, so I'm really interested in his golf connections at the moment.
The story of the origination of the course at Skibo is quite fun. His ruminations on golf definitely speak of a true appreciation too.
F.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

My first thought was Rolling Rock Club as well...

[Marty Bonnar]

There's a lovely article here:

http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/bk_issue/1996/julaug/feat3.htm

Starts to speak of his interest... also mentioned of course, the involvement of those other Dunfermline guys in early US golf.

F.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Great question.  Makes me wonder if they did, could it have been at the development of Rolling Rock or Allegheny C.C.  Frick's social club the South Fork Hunting and Fishing Club was North of Johnstown and therefore not far from Rolling Rock which was developed by the Mellon family.  There is also Edgewood C.C. in Pittsburgh an original Ross design.  Would seem the possibility exists considering Carnegie's social dealings with the wealthiest of the wealthy (he being at the top).

http://books.google.com/books?id=8KfDXSBSGZgC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=Private+Golf+Clubs+of+Andrew+Carnegie&source=bl&ots=P4FaIo4SJN&sig=3SrG139cdhYhFuWAIhJyx5Q6gcg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kwpXUpT8JZHe4APoxIHoDw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Private%20Golf%20Clubs%20of%20Andrew%20Carnegie&f=false

Hmmm, Frick was a major benefactor of CB Macdonald. Major as in to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, not to mention the prestige of lending his name to NGLA. Not sure if that makes it more or less likely Frick patronized Ross. Probably more: for a red in tooth and claw capitalist Frick sure opened the purse strings for art (and artists).

[BCrosby]

Is there a reason to think a Carnegie - Ross connection should be of interest?

Bob

[Pete_Pittock]

The article Dr. Golf mentioned Carnegie taking up golf at age 68, which would have been after Ross left Dornoch for the States.

[Rich Goodale]

Martin

My best guess is no.  Ross left for the USA just about the same time that Carnegie retired to Dornoch (late 1890's).  Even if they had been in Dornoch together at that tiime, there would have been no reason for Carnegie to meet Ross (since the former didn't learn to play golf until the turn of the century, and the latter was working at St. Andrews and Carnoustie by the time that Carnegie moved over).  When Carnegie built his private 9-holer at Skibo he used John Sutherland to build it, which is logical since at that time his reputation as a GCA was much higher than that of DJR.  Also, as far as I know Ross didn't return to Droncoh until 1921, when Carnegie was already deid.

As for Frick and Ross and Pittsburgh, I very much doubt there was any meeting since Frick and Carneegie hated each other.  In fact, Carnegie bought Skibo with the money ($1 or $2 million) which Frick had to pay to him for a technical default when in the process of creating US Steel.  Carnegie always referred to Skibo as "Frick's little gift to me."

Rich

PS--good luck with Pittencrief--one of the many truly magnificent gifts that Carenegie gave to his home town of Dunfermline.

rfg

[Marty Bonnar]

Good info Rich!
I guess I was wondering if Ross might have been introduced to Carnegie when he was back in the states between visits to skibo, but you seem to infer he didn't return much to the states in his later days.
I thought maybe some of Carnegie's contacts who were themselves being involved in new course developments with Ross, might have realised the young fellow was from near where old Andrew had built his hielan' hame and thought to introduce them.
Cheers,
F.

[Ken Fry]

There is one time frame where the two could have crossed paths.

Andrew Carnegie purchased Shadowbrook Castle in Lenox, Massachusetts in 1917 which at the time was the 2nd largest private residence in the United States.  He purchased the castle as a summer home and a new base in the United States to compliment his Scottish properties.  Just down the street in Pittsfield, MA, the Country Club of Pittsfield was under construction beginning in 1917, designed by Donald Ross.  Carnegie died at Shadowbrook in 1920.

The two properties are separated by about 8 miles.  I can't find any public record the two met during this time frame, but they would be in very close proximity.

Ken Fry

[Marty Bonnar]

Thanks Ken, that's nice.
Maybe all we'll have is the tantalising possibility that they were once within a few miles of each other!
Cheers,
F.

[Niall C]

FBD

I'm a wee bit surprised that their isn't ready evidence that Ross met Carnegie. I'm also surprised, given the suggestion that Carnegie bought Skibo in the late 1980's that the timeframe doesn't fit for them meeting. As I understand it Ross didn't go to the US until the turn of the century and that when he left he was working at Dornoch. That being the case (assuming I'm right) then there's every chance he might have met Carnegie, particularly if Carnegie was learning to play. After all, where would he go to learn but to the local professional.

Niall

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Ken, that's nice.
Maybe all we'll have is the tantalising possibility that they were once within a few miles of each other!
Cheers,
F.

Okay, I'll bite . . . Why is this tantalizing?  To repeat Bob Crosby's question: Is there a reason to think a Carnegie - Ross connection should be of interest?

[Brad Klein]

I never found any reference in Ross' extensive private letters, telegrams, whatever, to anything doing with Andrew Carnegie.
Ross left Dornoch in mid-March 1899 for the States, returned for the first time Nov. 1904, stayed a month to get married, left in December, returned in August 1910, then not again until after WWI.

John Sutherland at Dornoch despised Ross. The only design tinkering Ross ever did there was on the 2nd green and Sutherland regretted it. He made no mention of Ross in his famous 50-year anniversary speech as club secretary (1933), wherein he extolled all the great names associated with Dornoch and never mentioned Ross in his 30-minute speech.

Ross was ignored as a son of Dornoch until a plaque finally went up outside the cottage in town where he lived, but it was not placed on the house until around 2001.

That doesn't mean they never met or even worked together. It just means it's less likely than a casual view of their lives and overlaps might suggest.

[David_Tepper]

"John Sutherland at Dornoch despised Ross."

Brad K. -

Can you tell us why Sutherland felt that way?

DT

[Brad Klein]

David,

I can't speculate on the source of his feelings; I can only report on his behavior.

[Peter Pallotta]

That's fascinating. Maybe because I've only seen photos of the older, established Ross, I never imagined him as a young man who had  to 're-invent' himself on the boat ride over to America. I just never thought of him as the un-loved son of the Scottish links, arriving in a new country without even the cushion of a brimming self confidence.

Peter

[Brad Klein]

Ross came over in 1899 with a small suitcase and set of clubs and the address of Harvard astronomy Prof. Robert Willson in his pocket. (By the way, I can't tell you the thrill I had holding his day calendar/diary in my hands). He walked the 5-6 miles from the train station to Willson's house and ate ravenously, slept over and the next day started work at Oakley CC. He had almost no money on him, set up shop as the pro/greenkeeper, and had to save up for five years before he had enough money to return for his fiancee. His job at Pinehurst, which started a year after he got to the States, would have paid him very little -- not much more than allowing him to rent a room in what is now a men's haberdashery in the middle of Pinehurst. So he worked his way up from very little.

Ross (1872-1948) would have been totally unknown to Andrew Carnegie (1835-1919) until the very end of Carnegie's life.  

[Rich Goodale]

I never found any reference in Ross' extensive private letters, telegrams, whatever, to anything doing with Andrew Carnegie.
Ross left Dornoch in mid-March 1899 for the States, returned for the first time Nov. 1904, stayed a month to get married, left in December, returned in August 1910, then not again until after WWI.

John Sutherland at Dornoch despised Ross. The only design tinkering Ross ever did there was on the 2nd green and Sutherland regretted it. He made no mention of Ross in his famous 50-year anniversary speech as club secretary (1933), wherein he extolled all the great names associated with Dornoch and never mentioned Ross in his 30-minute speech.

Ross was ignored as a son of Dornoch until a plaque finally went up outside the cottage in town where he lived, but it was not placed on the house until around 2001.

That doesn't mean they never met or even worked together. It just means it's less likely than a casual view of their lives and overlaps might suggest.

Brad

Your statements about the 2nd hole at Dornoch do not agree with those of the author of Dornoch's club history (Dr. John McCleod, 2000).  John wrote:

"In 1921, Donald Ross, over from the States, remodelled the 1st and 2nd holes, placing them where they are now.  The first becme a respectable lenth of 333 yards, with the second being 180 yards.  In fact the architect (Ross) wanted to make the second a saucer green but was over-ruled, presumably by John Sutherland."

Also, I seem to remember from the reminiscences of the Rev. Dr. Grant  ("Donald Ross of Pinehurst and Dornoch"), that Ross played with Dr. G and Sutherland in a regular fourball.  If this is true, I find it hard to believe that that he "despised" Ross.  The fact that he didn't mention him in his 1933 speech is not surprising--he and Ross were of different classes and lived on separate continents.  I don't think that Ross's work in the USA was at all known (or rated) in the UK prior to the 1950's or 1960's, but I could be wrong....

Rich

[Brad Klein]

Rich,you are probably right about the 1st hole, and in fact it was Ross' attempt (ultimately halted) to reshape the 2nd green (he used as far as I can tell the one that was there but shortened the tee) that had Sutherland aggrieved. As for the Grant book, it is very unreliable, as I recall. And in any case, Sutherland's speech was a detailed history of all the great figures associated with Dornoch golf, and Ross' name was conspicuously absent, even though by then Ross' fame in the States was well established. If they had played regularly, it would have been for a short stint in the mid-late-1890s before Ross left Scotland.

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,you are probably right about the 1st hole, and in fact it was Ross' attempt (ultimately halted) to reshape the 2nd green (he used as far as I can tell the one that was there but shortened the tee) that had Sutherland aggrieved. As for the Grant book, it is very unreliable, as I recall. And in any case, Sutherland's speech was a detailed history of all the great figures associated with Dornoch golf, and Ross' name was conspicuously absent, even though by then Ross' fame in the States was well established. If they had played regularly, it would have been for a short stint in the mid-late-1890s before Ross left Scotland.

Possibly so, Brad, but in John McLeod's book. Sutherland's speech is not as you report it, either in terms of ocasion or content.  As Dr. McLeod wrote, in disproving the (then, 2000) theory that Tom Morris only added 9 holes to the course in 1877:

"John Sutherland (spoke) at the (1933) function which marked his fifty years as Club Secretary.  He gave a light-hearted speech at the time, not a definitive history of the Club...."

Now I never met Ross or Sutherland as may have you, but I did know John McLeod well, as a friend as a doctor, and I'll take his word in these matters until somebody can prove that what he wrote was false or misleading.

Rich

[Brad Klein]

Rich, I never said a 30-mnute speech was a definitive history. It was on a commemorative occasion to celebrate Sutherland's 50 years as club secretary. The town newspaper thought enough of it to print it up. He mentions lots of people associated with the club, including Old Tom Morris, J.H.. Taylor and George Duncan. No mention of Ross.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Brad

I am surprised that Sutherland would have mentioned George Duncan in his 1933 speech, given that as far as I know (and confirmed by Tom MacWood (RIP) in an old thread) Duncan had no connection with the club prior to being hired post WWII to advise on the new holes (6-11).  Could you possibly post a transcript of that speech?  I, for one, would find it fascinating.

Rich

[Shane Wright]

Rich,you are probably right about the 1st hole, and in fact it was Ross' attempt (ultimately halted) to reshape the 2nd green (he used as far as I can tell the one that was there but shortened the tee) that had Sutherland aggrieved. As for the Grant book, it is very unreliable, as I recall. And in any case, Sutherland's speech was a detailed history of all the great figures associated with Dornoch golf, and Ross' name was conspicuously absent, even though by then Ross' fame in the States was well established. If they had played regularly, it would have been for a short stint in the mid-late-1890s before Ross left Scotland.

Brad, I'm reading your "Discovering Donald Ross" book right now and it does mention of work on the 1st hole by Ross.  

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