[Steve Kline]

I would choose any seaside links in the UK to play almost every time over virtually any American course. For me there is something about the wind and ground there that is the epitome of golf. I have played Pine Valley and absolutely loved it. I would immediately accept another invite back without even asking my wife. It is without a doubt the best golf course I have ever played. But, if I had to choose a single course to play forever without setting foot on another course it would be one of the seaside links in Scotland.

[Jon Wiggett]

I would choose any seaside links in the UK to play almost every time over virtually any American course. For me there is something about the wind and ground there that is the epitome of golf. I have played Pine Valley and absolutely loved it. I would immediately accept another invite back without even asking my wife. It is without a doubt the best golf course I have ever played. But, if I had to choose a single course to play forever without setting foot on another course it would be one of the seaside links in Scotland.

+1,

I really enjoyed PV. It looked stunning but first it is a course that would destroy/demoralise me if I played it every day and (I expect to be torn apart here) I felt it was a little one dimensional in the shot requirement. If I had to play one course from now on then it would be Kilspindie as it is a really fun course belonging to a great private club.

Jon

[Greg Taylor]

To all of those people who want to play links courses in the GB&I, well, all I'm saying is have you really played them in the wind...?

They are very serious tests of golf once the wind is above 25 mph...!

Granted match play is different, but links can be de-moralising.

[Jon Wiggett]

To all of those people who want to play links courses in the GB&I, well, all I'm saying is have you really played them in the wind...?

They are very serious tests of golf once the wind is above 25 mph...!

Greg,

that is when they become really interesting

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

...
That said, of course there's Group Think here.  I doubt that a lot of original thinkers spend time on a blog like this. It's custom made for people who tend to hold similar values, and those with minority views tend to grow frustrated.  

That's Bull!

You think there are arguments here because we have Group Think?!?!

[Ronald Montesano]

Where was NGLA in the ratings in 1985?
Did it materially change?

I think it did change. Didn't they pull down a bunch of trees? That itself would have opened up wind flow and allowed better circulation for better grass health.

[Andrew Buck]

It has more to do with the fact that we are all becoming equal in terms of access. The more we become the same the easier it is to form your own opinion.

Nonsense.  You don't see me posting about Pine Valley, Seminole, Friar's Head, Oakmont, Merion, Augusta National, etc. and it ain't because I don't want to play there.  You are just an elite who projects your privileged lifestyle on others.

As Mr. Holder said about race, the reason that there is not much diversity of opinion is because we are a DG "of cowards".  Or maybe those who have opposing tastes acknowledge that it is mostly a matter of preference and little of consequence is gained by trying to shove those down somebody else's throat.

I also think if discussion turns to "Best" courses, those of us that haven't had the fortune of playing many (or any) elites, simply don't opine.  While I've played around 300 courses, I've only played a dozen or so Doak 7's, let alone Elites, and I just have a hard time suggesting any rate amount the "best" in the world (or at least I hope they don't because I'd always like to hope to play courses that I enjoy more in the future.).  

[Carl Johnson]

Groupthink is very normal group behavior, so not surprising it exists on this site.

[Andrew Buck]

Groupthink is very normal group behavior, so not surprising it exists on this site.

Not to mention, some of it has likely developed out of years of discussion on architecture and hundreds of opinions considered.  It is perfectly reasonable that there is going to be some level of influence over time that will become most prevalent, because once all alternatives are considered, it makes the most sense to a majority.  

This could happen over time with tree clearing, minimalism or many other trends.  In some cases, it could simply be that when opposing views are considered over time, pictures are shown with differences, and people play different styles, they come to a fuller understanding of what they enjoy.  Not all groupthink is a negative, or rejection of true beliefs.  It is just as likely an evolution of positions on some items due to an openness to all viewpoints.

[Greg Taylor]

Group Think or overthinking... Either way the idea that Brora is "better" than Pine Valley is just nonsense.

There are sufficient rankings with different methods and sample sizes to agree a that there is top echelon of courses, that whilst we may not agree on the absolute rank, are the most highly ranked courses in the world... they are Pine Valley, CPC etc... it is not Brora, Cruden Bay etc...

Now you may like Brora more than Cypress Point, but that's merely down to personal preferences/taste.

And in the full interests of full disclosure I love Cruden Bay BTW.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Which raises another question . Howinhell do raters get the rating right on a course they only see once?

K

Ken,
your answer lies in the title of the thread.
Groupthink has its own momentum.

Where was NGLA in the ratings in 1985?

That may have been attributable to access and the minimum number of ballots rather than evaluative criteria.

Did it materially change?

There have been changes, mostly tees, but # 11 and # 13 were changed at the green end, as was # 1.

No tastes did (of course I'd like to think for the better )

I'd agree that tastes do change.
Fads run in and out of favor, but, there are certain absolutes that tend to remain static.

[John Kirk]

Which raises another question . How in hell do raters get the rating right on a course they only see once?

K

Ken,
your answer lies in the title of the thread.
Groupthink has its own momentum.
Where was NGLA in the ratings in 1985?
Did it materially change?
No tastes did (of course I'd like to think for the better )

It's clear to me the answer to this thought is the emergence of Tom Doak as the world's foremost authority on evaluating golf courses.  Tom writes The Confidential Guide, says NGLA and Crystal Downs are perfect 10s, and within twenty years both courses go from nowhere to be found to top 15 in the country.

Opinions change because people like Tom made good, logical arguments why some golf courses are superior to others.  If there is group think here, it's because many of us are devotees of The Confidential Guide.  Other authors, like Geoff Shackelford, have made the same type of arguments.  I do not anticipate "tastes" to change much in the next twenty years.  Better is better.

[Bill Crane]

Great thread and it is interesting to see the responses.

I love when Ran posts an article that runs counter to the crowd, for example his glowing reviews of the Tom Fazio designed Forest Creek courses, and of course Southern Pines, which despite being a Donald Ross design is largely unheralded outside of GCA.
While we do exhibit group-think like tendencies, there are many people posting about unranked courses that they like or just played and thought were interesting.  What upsets me is when GCAers are downright mean to people who have opinions that differ from their own. We all have different likes, dislikes and levels of experience with different types of Golf architecture.

Personally, I would love to see a compilation of worthwhile courses that are not highly rated, good courses and good clean fun.  You can sort of cobble this together by searching and adding golfclubatlas.com.  This is a little more than just hidden gems.

So, on my recent trip to Scotland I did play TOC, North Berwick, Cruden Bay and Royal Dornoch.  But I also purposely made time for BRORA, Golspie and Crail Balcomie and enjoyed them all.  Told of my plans, several golfers could not believe that I went to the East Coast and did not Carnoustie, but would go out of my way for Brora and Golspie.   I really wanted to see some true and perhaps less corrupted links courses.   Brora was great, Golspie was fun, beautiful and worth playing.  Loved North Berwick with some cool quirk – a par 4 green next to a wall that you have to hit your approach shot over.

Royal Dornoch was simply spectacular and is now in my top five.

Wm Flynnfan

[Garland Bayley]

If better is better, why is ANGC held in such high esteem here?

Actually, come to think of it ANGC demonstrates the lack of group think here, because there is a lot of disagreement on this website on how good it is.

[Kyle Casella]

If better is better, why is ANGC held in such high esteem here?

Actually, come to think of it ANGC demonstrates the lack of group think here, because there is a lot of disagreement on this website on how good it is.

Maybe that is because it is the one course most will never play?

[Garland Bayley]

Brian,

Artificially created ponds are the "real deal"?

[Garland Bayley]

Brian,

Are you going to go all Mucci on me? Whether or not I have been to Augusta does not change whether or not RTJ came in and created artificial ponds.

[Eric Smith]

I find it very hard to believe anyone would pick Seminole over Pennard

Howdy, Jeff.

My Whip Out

7.   Pennard
37. Seminole

Respectfully,

Guy with 2 Jacks in his top 4  

[Patrick_Mucci]

If better is better, why is ANGC held in such high esteem here?

Actually, come to think of it ANGC demonstrates the lack of group think here, because there is a lot of disagreement on this website on how good it is.

Disagreement from whom ?  People who have NEVER played it.

I've played it and it's a spectacular golf course.

As to the ponds, they're merely dammed creeks and runoffs

[Garland Bayley]

Brian,

I gave you a reasoned argument. You reject it for an unreasonable reason.

I have seen Bandon Trails. I have seen "the property, the routing, the amazing greens, the width, the movement of the land etc etc etc" at Bandon Trails. I love these things at Bandon Trails just as I believe I would love them at ANGC.

However, my golf course rating criteria has artificial ponds as one of the rating criteria. Therefore, my rating of Bandon Trails falls below my rating of Chambers Bay which has no such bodies of water in play. Similarly I logically conclude ANGC will fall behind like courses with no artificial ponds in my rating. That is a reasoned, logical argument.

Now stop going all subjective on me. If you think my subjective side would get the better of me if I went to ANGC, they you don't understand my logical nature.

And I haven't even brought up the visual and artistic discord that the white bath tubs evoke at ANGC. Kinda looks like a child's attempt at landscape painting.

[Simon Holt]

This nudged me into redoing my Whip It Out list, 3.5 years after my last attempt.  I was as objective as I could be about what is on the ground.  Nothing about price, access or any of that other BS.  

I make no apologies for it probably being labelled group think....they're kick ass courses.  However, I will say that without question, my Top 25 most fun courses or best experience list would be much more interesting.  And I think for me that is what this thread is all about.  

[David Kelly]

It's a rather simple thought process. The great courses come from architects with design principles that form the basis for this site. TOC is the template and it's progeny are the courses loved on this site.

This is really the answer and the reason I've been coming to this website since basically day one.

"While golf course architecture is a subjective art form, several key tenets have stood the test of time. These are explored in an effort to understand why some courses are more fascinating than others, and to understand why such courses continually beckon for a return game." - Ran Morrissett.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I can honestly say that if I had only one day more to live, and the magic genie granted me a last wish to play one last round of golf, RCD, TOC, Royal Melbourne, Walton Heath, Sunningdale, and several others would be in my thoughts. ANGC would be well down the list. It's a course that really doesn't excite me and that's perhaps because its presentation isn't that far removed from the K Clubs and Bro Hofs of this worlds. The courses that made a big impression on me when I first took an interest in architecture more than 30 years ago were the Walton Heaths, Sunningdales and Hoylakes. ANGC is at the other end of the spectrum in my opinion. If I ever did get the opportunity to play the course, I would certainly play it, as I would if invited to play TPC Sawgrass or Celtic Manor or any of the several hundred interesting courses out there.

I don't wish to take an opposing opinion; I'm just happy to play any course I can, especially the lesser known courses, as I strongly believe that a pleasant surprise is never too far away. My ideal golf trip would be to spend a couple of weeks along the west coast of Scotland playing little known 9 and 18 hole courses. My family holidayed just outside Oban many years ago, and my father and my two elder brothers played Glencruttin GC. I was too young to play it, but I had a look at the club's website many years later. Take a look at the website: http://www.obangolf.com/
The course looks crazy and is a must play!
    
I know I'm not alone when I saying that Birkdale is a bit dull. I don't know where it would be placed in my top 25 courses, but if it did manage to make it, that just indicates that I have not played enough very good or great courses. I prefer Silloth to both Birkdale and Lytham.

I have always thought that there may be some hesitancy to slay golf's sacred cows. Take Crystal Downs for example. During Mark Saltzman's excellent photo tour on CD, I deliberately avoided making any comments as I didn't pass the "Mucci Test" (i.e. I haven't played the course). I was itching to join in the discussion, but I held back. I felt that CD was given a free pass on several fronts.

Firstly, the green speeds. It was mentioned several times that hitting above the hole on some greens would result in a certain putt off the front of the green. I realize that conditioning shouldn't have a huge bearing on one's opinion, but green speeds are inextricably linked with the architecture. Would the cognoscenti of the DG be so accepting if this occurred at Torrey Pines.

Secondly, the 5th hole with the double fairway cannot seriously be considered an "All World" hole, when - if you believe the driver carry distance claims - 99.99% of the members of this DG would reach the right hand fairway with a 5 iron. Tom Doak wrote during that photo tour that the carry was about 160-170 yds.

Thirdly, the 7th hole with the discontinuous fairway and boomerang shaped green: According to TD, years of top dressing have altered the slopes, to the extent that there is now no guarantee that a putt from the back will swing around, making use of the slopes as the Dr has envisaged.

And what about the 17th?

The most bewildering evidence of group think or a herd mentality that I have witnessed is the astronomical amount of cash that members of this DG have handed over for a copy of the Confidential Guide. I just don't understand why. Even TD must think that forking out $300-$500 for the CG is totally bonkers!

[Dwight Phelps]

Brian,

I gave you a reasoned argument. You reject it for an unreasonable reason.

I have seen Bandon Trails. I have seen "the property, the routing, the amazing greens, the width, the movement of the land etc etc etc" at Bandon Trails. I love these things at Bandon Trails just as I believe I would love them at ANGC.

However, my golf course rating criteria has artificial ponds as one of the rating criteria. Therefore, my rating of Bandon Trails falls below my rating of Chambers Bay which has no such bodies of water in play. Similarly I logically conclude ANGC will fall behind like courses with no artificial ponds in my rating. That is a reasoned, logical argument.

Now stop going all subjective on me. If you think my subjective side would get the better of me if I went to ANGC, they you don't understand my logical nature.

And I haven't even brought up the visual and artistic discord that the white bath tubs evoke at ANGC. Kinda looks like a child's attempt at landscape painting.

Is there any way in your rating criteria for an artificial pond not to be a negative or to allow for degrees?  Is there any distinction between an artificial pond that looks and feels artificial versus one that looks and feels more in tune with the rest of the course?

With the examples that you give - Are Bandon Trails and Chambers Bay equal outside of the presence of artificial ponds?  Or does the existence of an artificial pond at BT overcome any other architecture/design features?

As a hypothetical, what is the biggest rating change caused by artificial ponds in your system?  Can lack of artificial ponds make a good course great or a great course excellent?  Can their presence work the other way, making an otherwise excellent course simply great or good?

[Garland Bayley]

Dwight,

It's not letting me quote right now so I'll see if I can remember to cover all your questions.

An artificial pond is a demerit. Lack of an artificial pond is not a plus. Bandon Trails would rate higher for me than Chambers Bay if it were not for the artificial pond.
The ponds at ANGC look quite artificial to me. The demerits therefore go up. The demerits really go up big time when my ball has to run uphill to get into an artificial pond.
Off hand, I can't think of any artificial ponds that look natural. Perhaps the one at Bandon Trails is one that I can think of right now that looks the most natural.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()