[jeffwarne]

The contributors on this formum form in my opinion, some of the most well traveled and educated opinions in golf today.
That said, most every time I see a respected poster list his favorite courses (Sean Arble, my hero, excepted), it's always NGLA, Pine Valley, Cypress,Seminole, Sand Hills. Royal Melbourne, Bandon courses.
 
I get it , they're all great, but isn't there room for someone to throw out a Brora, a Creek, a Pennard, a Sleepy Hollow, a Portsalon, a Cullen or a Dunaverty, or even a freaking Goat Hill?

I don't mean as a cult GCA favorite, but as an actual  favorite.

I find it very hard to believe anyone would pick Seminole over Pennard, Narin and Portnoo, or Portsalon,or a large selection of English courses   UNLESS they were worried about future access or GCA brownie points .


Let the crusifiction begin.........

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not alone. Scary isn't it?

[jeffwarne]

I'm certainly scared....

[Tommy Williamsen]

There is a difference between my favorite course and the best course I've played. My very favorite course is Musgrove Mill GC. In fact I did an In My Opinion.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/musgrove-mill/

There is nothing about it I don't like.

[jeffwarne]

Tommy, I've seen your work
exception granted-

[Charlie_Bell]

Two days ago someone started a thread on Great Courses You Don't Like, and it has already reached 3 pages.  Fun discussion, and I don't think people are being Shunned...

That said, of course there's Group Think here.  I doubt that a lot of original thinkers spend time on a blog like this. It's custom made for people who tend to hold similar values, and those with minority views tend to grow frustrated.  

[jeffwarne]

Two days ago someone started a thread on Great Courses You Don't Like, and it has already reached 3 pages.  Fun discussion, and I don't think people are being Shunned...

That said, of course there's Group Think here.  I doubt that a lot of original thinkers spend time on a blog like this. It's custom made for people who tend to hold similar values, and those with minority views tend to grow frustrated.  

Charlie,
but group think prevails on that thread.
"I don't like X course, but it's still great."
That's the poster child for what I'm speaking of.
Makes no sense to me.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've been here for what seems like ten years now. Group think is diminishing at an alarming rate. I know why and saw it coming years ago. #HFRO

[Peter Pallotta]

I've been here for what seems like ten years now. Group think is diminishing at an alarming rate. I know why and saw it coming years ago. #HFRO

Is it because no one's actually doing any thinking?

[John Kavanaugh]

It has more to do with the fact that we are all becoming equal in terms of access. The more we become the same the easier it is to form your own opinion.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
I think it is because it is so much easier to use one of the group think favorites when your profess your favorite course to be one that has only been played in one's imagination with imaginary friends    

[Peter Pallotta]

The more we become the same the easier it is to form your own opinion.

Never read it put that way before. Very nice.

Actually, I have read it put that way, but only once before:

BRIAN: Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!

FOLLOWERS: Yes, we're all individuals!

BRIAN: You're all different!

FOLLOWERS: Yes, we are all different!

DENNIS: I'm not.

FOLLOWERS: Shh.

BRIAN: You've all got to work it out for yourselves!

FOLLOWERS: Yes! We've got to work it out for ourselves!

BRIAN: Exactly!

FOLLOWERS: Tell us more!

[Mike Sweeney]

The contributors on this forum form in my opinion, some of the most well traveled and educated opinions in golf today.
That said, most every time I see a respected poster list his favorite courses (Sean Arble, my hero, excepted), it's always NGLA, Pine Valley, Cypress,Seminole, Sand Hills. Royal Melbourne, Bandon courses.
 
I get it , they're all great, but isn't there room for someone to throw out a Brora, a Creek, a Pennard, a Sleepy Hollow, a Portsalon, a Cullen or a Dunaverty, or even a freaking Goat Hill?

I don't mean as a cult GCA favorite, but as an actual  favorite.

I find it very hard to believe anyone would pick Seminole over Pennard, Narin and Portnoo, or Portsalon,or a large selection of English courses   UNLESS they were worried about future access or GCA brownie points .


Let the crusifiction begin.........

Here we go:

* Favorite State for Golf: Maine - Low priced, drivable, pretty much everything is accessible by just being considerate. The recent trip to Bar Harbor with the Maine Guides confirmed this opinion. I have been fortunate to play many of the Top 25 USA courses, but at this stage of life, or at least this month, Maine is my favorite state for golf. Cape Arundel is #1, but Northeast Harbor made a big push.

Still waiting for Jaka to play a golf course East of the Mississippi, or whatever big river is east of him....

* I like Florida Golf: Mountain Lake, World Woods and a dozen "sandy" courses around Orlando make Florida better than advertised. I think Streamsong is a good addition, but how many days am I going to drop $450 for a round of golf for my son and me?

* Favorite Course in Westchester County: Sleepy Hollow, a MacRaynor course, so it does not exactly make me a radical

* Favorite Course on Long Island: NGLA, sorry but it is a fun course to play.

* Favorite Course in New Jersey: Pine Valley, see above.

* Favorite Course in California: Cypress Point, see above.

* Favorite Course in Ireland: Enniscrone, I am a member.

* Favorite Course in Afghanistan: Kabul Golf Club, I am a member.

* Bandon: I have no doubt it has great golf courses, but Ireland, Scotland and England are more interesting to me. Oz and New Zealand too, but my travel is limited.

In general, my life now is full of Jews, Afghans, Surfers, Italians, Russians, Autistics and women from developing countries. If all of them can't feel comfortable with my club/golf course, my interest is less and less these days in the "politics" of golf.

Yale pretty much accepts all the misfits of life including me, so I am a lucky guy as it is a great course too.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't play east of Cleveland.

[Sean_A]

Jeff Sherman (think forced march) Warne aka The General - the man needs a pipe

I don't think folks are really worried about appearances for access.  Some of the courses which people list make up the canon of golf's special places - no?  For me there is a clear distinction between great and favourite and what helps make a course a favourite is when a shirt is more than the green fee   - sadly that is rare these days.  

Honestly, great is over-rated.

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

Jeff, I don't know how many of these guys have met you (hopefully many) but I can affirm that the two tours I took over the Women's Open week at Sebonack with you (The Bridge) and Gene Greco (Southampton GC) were my GCA highlights of 2013. Going around two such unique courses with guys knee-deep in restorations and updates are unique opportunities that should be sought out feverishly. I have resisted starting a Bridge thread because I need total focus/concentration to recall each shot (that I never actually hit!) and select each photo.

From my perspective, folks tend to pick "favorites" not based on number of times played. Some notch their bedposts, others realize that they will never go that way again in this lifetime, while others are unfortunate sheep. I haven't notched a bedpost with a Pine Valley or an Augusta, and my time over many courses is limited to hitting shots with a lens. I prefer to think of favorite tours or favorite moments, rather than courses.

We typically see a great course once, usually in one weather circumstance. I've played courses in good weather that I would prefer to play in rain/wind. I've played others in poor weather that I would like to see under gentler circumstances. Walking NGLA for three days this Fall allowed me to see so many angles, elements and facets that I can speak better of it from tee to green, yet I can't say anything about how it plays/how I would play it.

If I'm so fortunate to ever play any of the wondrous courses I saw on the east end of Long Island, I'll arrive with a posteriori knowledge that I anticipate will contribute to a more thorough and enjoyable round. The same goes for a round at Sleepy or any other place I've shot. Will it guarantee a "favoriting" of the course? Who knows. In my case, though, having seen more talented players (Walker Cup, US Open, PGA) maneuver their way around a course gives me insight into the proper way to play a course, and makes enjoyment and memorabie-nes more likely.

The more I can associate with a course, the more memorable and favorable it remains to me. I enjoyed Kinloch, Pete Dye, Ballyhack, Pinehust #2 and other ranked courses. Not having any other experience to connect to them leaves little chance for them to be considered my favorite, if push comes to shove.

[Greg Taylor]

Always up for a contrary opinion but the reason why PV, CPC, TOC etc... are always at the top of the rankings is genuinely because they are the best.

There was the architects list, Golf Week (large sample size), Golf Monthly (smaller, "expert" sample size) but however the courses are "measured" or rated the same names come out on top because they really are that good - there is no conspiracy...!

Ask the members on here, access aside, would you rather play Brora or CPC, Cruden Bay or PV and one of two exceptions aside you'll get the same answer. CPC and PV really are better than Brora and Crudent Bay...!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Always up for a contrary opinion but the reason why PV, CPC, TOC etc... are always at the top of the rankings is genuinely because they are the best.

There was the architects list, Golf Week (large sample size), Golf Monthly (smaller, "expert" sample size) but however the courses are "measured" or rated the same names come out on top because they really are that good - there is no conspiracy...!

Ask the members on here, access aside, would you rather play Brora or CPC, Cruden Bay or PV and one of two exceptions aside you'll get the same answer. CPC and PV really are better than Brora and Crudent Bay...!

So I'm not so sure....

And I'm not so sure I agree with Sean saying there's a clear difference between "great" and "favourite" either...

You see, I'm not sure there is better golf than playing certain seaside links in GB&I. Granted I haven't see PV (yet) or Cypress Point (maybe never). But I'm willing to bet that the type of shots you play on them don't replicate exactly the type of shots you play on the links. And I think that those are the "best" variety of shots...

So whilst I agree that the architecture at PV and CPC is probably a good few steps more sophisticated than Brora and Cruden Bay (i.e. "better"), I'm not so sure that makes the course better. If I'd prefer to play Brora every day than Pine Valley every day, then doesn't that make it a better course for me?

Now averaged over 1,000 opinions Pine Valley will come out top (and that's why it does)... But I like Jeff's premise... It's too easy just to copy what everyone else thinks.

[Sean_A]

Ronald

I think you have something there.  Favourites will often change depending on how well we know a course and one's time in life.  Kington gradually grew on me to where I now consider it my favourite place to tee it up.  I could easily see that changing with age simply because Kington is rugged golf often played in rugged conditions.  

Greg

Having favourites and choosing where to play are not synonymous.  I envy the guys who get to play one of their very top favourites as a member, but they likely cherish the opportunity to forgo a home game for something different - especially a game on an iconic course such as...

Ally - speaking only for myself - sure, there is a difference between favourite and great.  The two will often happily mingle in the same circles, but favourite resonates for me as more personal approach to looking at a course.  When I think of a great course I try to take into account the ideas of others.  That doesn't mean I can't discount those ideas , but I try to see things from different PsoV.  For instance, if I am thinking about great courses I think covering the gap between the 24 capper and the +2 (or even tour pro - ideally) is important.  For my favourites, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me and in fact I look for courses which definitely lean toward the 24 capper rather than the +2.  I don't think I include a single proper championship course among my Whip it Out list or one which is considered to be very difficult.

Ciao    

[Scott Warren]

Greg T,

I agree.

A lot comes down, too, to the difference between "best" and "favourite".

I know Sean puts great stock in the latter, but both are fun discussions to have.

There's a small group of courses that would top both lists - they're the really special ones.

[Ken Moum]

Jeff,

While the truth is that I've only played a tiny sample of courses that make it on the "great" list, I have played twenty-odd courses in Scotland. If I HAD to pick my favorites from that list Brora and Elie would most likely be at the top.  I played TOC twice in 2006 while playing very poorly so it's hard for me to get over my total inability to execute--but it has to be a good candidate. By comparison I've played Jubilee twice also and have virtually no interest in doing it again.

As far as the greats go, I've played Royal Dornoch and Prairie Dunes a couple of times each and they are both SO difficult for a short, inaccurate driver that I'd not look forward to playing a medal competition on them.  But I truly see the fun in playing a match. Would I want to play them every day? Not under the GHIN system where I have to post every score.

However, I really hope to get a few more chances to play them, because in my heart of hearts I think I can figure them out... Maybe that's a better measure of their quality. When I played Dornoch this year with a GCAer who's played it hundreds of times I see that it's going to take some time.

Which raises another question . Howinhell do raters get the rating right on a course they only see once?

K

[Lou_Duran]

It has more to do with the fact that we are all becoming equal in terms of access. The more we become the same the easier it is to form your own opinion.

Nonsense.  You don't see me posting about Pine Valley, Seminole, Friar's Head, Oakmont, Merion, Augusta National, etc. and it ain't because I don't want to play there.  You are just an elite who projects your privileged lifestyle on others.

As Mr. Holder said about race, the reason that there is not much diversity of opinion is because we are a DG "of cowards".  Or maybe those who have opposing tastes acknowledge that it is mostly a matter of preference and little of consequence is gained by trying to shove those down somebody else's throat.

[jeffwarne]

Which raises another question . Howinhell do raters get the rating right on a course they only see once?

K

Ken,
your answer lies in the title of the thread.
Groupthink has its own momentum.
Where was NGLA in the ratings in 1985?
Did it materially change?
No tastes did (of course I'd like to think for the better )

[Brent Hutto]

As a person of somewhat scientific and navel-gazing tendencies, I always feel obliged to point out that "Best" implicitly means "Best to such and such purpose". As I experience various great, near-great and not-so-great golf courses it seems to me that the "Best" course for hosting a major championship does not necessarily have to be the "Best" course for playing 150 rounds a year as a member. Or the "Best" resort course for holiday visitors may not seen the "Best" course for a bunch of low-handicap bombers.

I fear that the most commonly in mind type of "Best" in discussions here is a highly inbred, self-justifying "Best exemplar of the shared prejudices among the long-time, most opinionated GCA participants, especially course raters and most especially course raters who are part of one certain rater pool". So no surprise that the same old, same old highly rated courses get named when "Best" is invoked. The normative response on this group is not based on major championship, member play, resort golf or any other real-world implication. It is based on magazine rating criteria.

[Mike Schott]

It's a rather simple thought process. The great courses come from architects with design principles that form the basis for this site. TOC is the template and it's progeny are the courses loved on this site.

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