Do Cultivated Gardens have a place on Classic Golf Courses?

[A.G._Crockett]

Something about this thread bothered me all day yesterday (besides the fact that I can't understand why we would debate whether or not there is a place for beauty in the world) but I couldn't put my finger on it.  During the night, it became clear.

A golf course IS a "cultivated garden".

[Lou_Duran]

How a club spends its money is its business.  A well-run operation can walk and chew gum at the same time- maintaining the course and the surrounding gardens are not mutually exclusive endeavors.  I like flowers.  Lots of them.  Bushes and trees too.  Just keep them away from the playing areas and the "perfect" bunkers.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG,

What happened to the field of play ?

Should we now put flowers on the border of the end zone and sidelines ?

Foul Ball territory ?

Do those flowers occur naturally on the golf course, or does man introduce flowers not indigenous to the golf course ?

[Brent Hutto]

TifEagle hybrid Bermuda is not indigenous to my club's property (or anyone else's). The sand is imported, as well.

There are some college football stadiums with shrubbery in the end zones.

I swear this group has turned into a bunch of more-purist-than-thou nonsense worthy of Monty Python at their most absurd.

A.G. has it right. The entirety of golf as we know it today is a purely artificial, cultivated, highly stylized playing field. Some people seem to have trouble distinguishing between clever stylization to give a naturalistic effect and a natural piece of land untouched by the hand of man. Here's a hint. About 99.999% of the Earth's surface consists of places you would not care to try and play golf as the land and vegetation naturally occurs.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,

What happened to the field of play ?

Should we now put flowers on the border of the end zone and sidelines ?

Foul Ball territory ?

Do those flowers occur naturally on the golf course, or does man introduce flowers not indigenous to the golf course ?

Patrick,
Valid questions, all.  I have to leave for NC in a few minutes and will be away from computer access for a few days.  If the thread is still alive when I get back Sunday night, maybe I will have a coherent response.  (The only word in your post with which I would quibble is "indigenous" since the end zone, the sidelines, foul territory, and the golf course are all comprised primarily if not completely of non-indigenous plants and artificial devices.  If not, the Braves and the Dodgers would be playing on red clay with patchy fescue Thursday night in Atlanta, rather than the perfectly manicured bermuda that you will see on TV.  And we won't even get into the bent grass greens, zoysia collars, and hybrid bermuda fairways at my club!  But I digress...)

For now, I'll just say that if a planting, indigenous or not, adds beauty to a pretty ugly world, I'm all for it at this point in my life.  Of course, there are matters of taste and of course I wouldn't want the field of play impacted.  But beyond that, I'll opt for beauty and color and variety.  It eases the way...

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG,

How much beauty do you add ?

Where does it stop ?

Have a nice  and safe trip

[Rees Milikin]

Flowering bushes or shrubs are appealing to me b/c you run across situations like that in nature, but something like Sentry World or small random flower beds...not so much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just wondering, do any of the following courses have flower beds/shrubs planted throughout the golf course ?

Pine Valley ?

NGLA

Shinnecock

GCGC

Bandon Dunes

Pacific Dunes

Streamsong ?

Prairie Dunes

Pebble Beach

Spyglass Hill

Pinehurst # 2

[Dan Kelly]

How much beauty do you add ?

Where does it stop ?

Not attempting to speak for Mr. Crockett, but ...

1. You add as much beauty as you think is proper -- exactly the same criterion you use for any other variable on the golf course (bunkers, other hazards, trees, water, rough, tee boxes).

2. It stops where it might interfere with the playing of the game.

Would I put flower gardens on the course I would design or own? No, I would not -- unless I thought that the financial health of the club would be well-served by appealing to people who would be more attracted to the course with flowers than to the course without flowers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How much beauty do you add ?

Where does it stop ?

Not attempting to speak for Mr. Crockett, but ...

1. You add as much beauty as you think is proper --

And, who makes that decision ?  The Green Chairman ?  The Green Committee ?   The President ?  The President's wife ?  The Board

exactly the same criterion you use for any other variable on the golf course (bunkers, other hazards, trees, water, rough, tee boxes).
Don't take it personally, but, this has to be one of the most moronic statements made on this site

2. It stops where it might interfere with the playing of the game.

Then by all means, lets populate the non-playing corridors with as many flowers/shrubs/bushes and trees as we can.

Is your wife sneaking into your computer and posting replies ?

Would I put flower gardens on the course I would design or own? No, I would not -- unless I thought that the financial health of the club would be well-served by appealing to people who would be more attracted to the course with flowers than to the course without flowers.

That's the kind of member I want to associate with, one who chooses a course based upon the amount of flowers on the property.

In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be seriouis"

I nominate your reply as one of the most moronic in 2013

[Pete_Pittock]

The answer might lie in England, where there are many classic golf courses as well as being the seeding bed of cultivated gardening. If you find it there, it must be all right.

[Dan Kelly]

Don't take it personally, but, this has to be one of the most moronic statements made on this site

Oh, don't worry. I won't.

Maybe we'll "chat" again in the next life!

[SL_Solow]

A number of thoughts.  First, while a golf course is indeed an artificial construct one of the objectives is to make it appear as natural as possible given the constraints that it must qualify as a playing field.  That is why most of us disdain artificial waterfalls and helps explain the popularity of the "minimalist" movement.  Cultivated flower beds detract from this attempt to appear "natural".  Nevertheless, it is easy to understand the desire for "beauty".  While Pat's question about who decides "what is beautiful" is well taken and while a number of us believe a natural golf course is more beautiful than one containing artificial features, there is another alternative that can satisfy both parties.  It was championed by our long time superintendent (now emeritus) Paul Voykin, who began advocating naturalism in greenkeeping in the 1970's as both a means of saving money (his article was titled "Overgrooming is Overspending") and as way to add beauty.  As part of this program, Paul advocated planting out of the way areas with natural grasses and perrenial wildflowers.  These create beauty without the expense and formalism of the cultivated gardens discussed here.  anyone coming to Chicago should give me a call and I will show you Paul's and his successor, Justin Van Landuit's handiwork at Briarwood. That said, if members really want them and they are out of the way, gardens are a small sacrifice if it appeases the membership and keeps them away from more important issues like memorial tree programs,altering classic holes, and the like

[Dan Kelly]

Took a few pictures of our classic (Raynor) golf course last evening, while waiting for a slow group ahead of Jeff Shelman and me.

Didn't stop to smell anything (all low-maintenance perennials, I believe, and all out of play), but I can't say I minded what I saw. It's possible that they even improved the quality of my day.

10th green, from 11th tee:



Two shots of our Biarritz 12th, from the 13th tee:





Looking back at the Punchbowl green and Alps bunkers of the 14th, from the 15th tee:'



Half an hour later, the lightning began -- and I was in too much of a hurry to depart the premises, I'm sorry to report, to take a picture of the pretty flowers 50 yards behind the 18th green. Pity. Maybe later.

[Bill Brightly]

Of course they don't. But  the time and effort you will spend trying to win that argument  with those who want flowers would be pointless. Plant some rhododendron bushes out of play and make the flower lovers somewhat happy.

[Sean_A]

Other than the choice of border (some sort of horrible concrete looking brick?), I don't see the issue with plantings.  Yes, it costs money, but additional plantings if done right can add texture and colour to a course.  It sure beats looking at a gorse bush.  The one aspect which is troubling is how does one play from these areas?  I don't agree with a free drop nor an automatic penalty drop.  If the green keepers don't mind these areas being abused once in a while, there isn't an issue.  Otherwise, the playing of the game takes precedence and if plantings are sacred, then I have an issue with them.  That really means the only good areas for the above type of plantings are near tees unless the course has long green to tee transitions - in which case I would be all for plantings, statue gardens, naked women, coffee shops, bars, anything to relieve the boredom of a bad layout.

Ciao