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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2013, 11:50:44 AM »
David,

I think you'd love both courses, just not under the conditions you played them.

13 on the Stimp, with any slope and wind devolves into goofy, defensive golf.
At 10-11 I think you'd enjoy MPCC Shore

As to Seminole, did you play it in late April/May ?

Tim Book

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2013, 12:28:46 PM »
Easy question, Harbor Town.  If I sit down for a post round beer and can't distinguish or remember some holes it falls short of greatness.  Maybe I missed some nuisances but seemed fairly repetitive, especially on the front nine.  A few others that might not be considered great but good at one time, Kemper Lakes, Greenbrier (Greenbrier), Glen Club, and Trump National LA.

How could Bandon Trails be included in this thread? 2nd best course on the property!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2013, 12:37:18 PM »
Easy question, Harbor Town.  If I sit down for a post round beer and can't distinguish or remember some holes it falls short of greatness.  Maybe I missed some nuisances but seemed fairly repetitive, especially on the front nine.  A few others that might not be considered great but good at one time, Kemper Lakes, Greenbrier (Greenbrier), Glen Club, and Trump National LA.

How could Bandon Trails be included in this thread? 2nd best course on the property!

Bandon Trails is the one course that is always empty.  Walk up and play.  A ton of people don't like it. It doesn't make them bad or stupid people.

David Bartman

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Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2013, 12:00:16 AM »
David,

I think you'd love both courses, just not under the conditions you played them.

13 on the Stimp, with any slope and wind devolves into goofy, defensive golf.
At 10-11 I think you'd enjoy MPCC Shore

As to Seminole, did you play it in late April/May ?


I believe it was in May ,

I agree that the greens at 13 made the course not very fun, isn't that what I said!  LOL
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2013, 12:03:49 AM »
Easy question, Harbor Town.  If I sit down for a post round beer and can't distinguish or remember some holes it falls short of greatness.  Maybe I missed some nuisances but seemed fairly repetitive, especially on the front nine.  A few others that might not be considered great but good at one time, Kemper Lakes, Greenbrier (Greenbrier), Glen Club, and Trump National LA.

How could Bandon Trails be included in this thread? 2nd best course on the property!

For me Tim, its included for holes 1,2,12,14, and 18.   I haven't played it since they have come in and done work on , from what I hear 14 and 18 and I think they flattened the front of 16.  That being said I think trails has some of the best holes on the whole property, I haven't played Old M.  However, I tend to judge a course on its worst holes and not on its best ones. 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2013, 02:20:20 AM »
I'd play 30 rounds at North Berwick for every round at Muirfield...and stuffiness is not factored as part of the equation.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2013, 03:36:05 AM »
Cannot understand the hype about Pinehurst.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Greg Taylor

Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2013, 05:45:24 AM »
Royal Aberdeen... the back nine... hmmmm... not sure.

Pebble... holes away from the water were disappointing.

Carnoustie... can't put my finger on it, just too "bitty"; didn't flow.

Troon... apart from the 6-12 stretch it's missing some character.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2013, 06:47:13 AM »
Pebble, Torrey Pines, Valhalla, Muirfield Village

I love Pinehurst and Bandon Trails. I've played several hundred rounds at #2 over a 25 year period. I have only broken par once (and that was from the white tees). Most of those 25 years I was a plus handicap. Yet, I've played with plenty of bad golfers who almost always shoot their handicap. I think it is the  best eample I've ever played of hard course for good players and easy course for bad players. Bandon Trails is probably my favorite course at the resort.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2013, 07:36:16 AM »
I've played several hundred rounds at #2 over a 25 year period. I have only broken par once (and that was from the white tees). Most of those 25 years I was a plus handicap. Yet, I've played with plenty of bad golfers who almost always shoot their handicap. I think it is the  best eample I've ever played of hard course for good players and easy course for bad players.

Steve, why do you think #2 plays that way, i.e. hard for the good player, but easier for bad ones?  Do you think that is true if they all play from the same tees?  

Also, do you know the course rating and slope for #2?  

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2013, 08:08:49 AM »
I think that #2 plays that way because it is generous off the and hard to get up and down. The bad player is not going to lose strokes to lost balls, out of bounds, or water. Therefore, their inconsistent long game doesn't get penalized as much as at other courses. The good player generally doesn't worry about that at any course. The good player shoots good scores because of their generally better short games. But, at #2 it is generally very difficult to get up and down unless you miss it in the right spot every hole. And on each hole that changes depending on the pin position. However, the bad player generally doesn't get up and down that much. They often take two chips or chip on and two putt regardless of the course. So, #2's difficult greens don't affect them as much as the good player.

The good player must have an intimate knowledge of the course and its strategy to shoot a good score at #2. There are some places you will almost never get up and down from and some you can quite easily but you wouldn't think it at first glance.

As an example, on the first hole the players generally will miss right because they don't want to be in the bunker. That is a very difficult up and down because the green rises a foot or two from that fairway area and the green runs away from you. The good player makes a lot of fives from there on what is one of the easier holes on the course. But, the bad player isn't going to get up and down much anyway. So, they run it or putt it on the green to 20 feet and two putt for their 5. Both players end up with the same score. The good one knows he screwed up with a very difficult second hole coming and the bad player is happy with the five. However, the good player needs to know that it is far easier to get up and down from the bunker, even though it appears deep, because the green is sloping towards you. That makes the bunker shot much easier to control. The slope of that green from back right to front left is also why you need to the bunkers on the left off the tee. It is much easier to hit the green from there than the apparently safe tee shot down the right that doesn't require you to carry the bunker on the second. But, you are always hitting something less than 8 iron anyway.

I could go on like this for every hole at #2. There is an ton of strategy that is not apparent at first glance. And, that strategy is much more in play after the renovation.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2013, 09:06:00 AM »
David,

I think you'd love both courses, just not under the conditions you played them.

13 on the Stimp, with any slope and wind devolves into goofy, defensive golf.
At 10-11 I think you'd enjoy MPCC Shore

As to Seminole, did you play it in late April/May ?


I believe it was in May ,

I agree that the greens at 13 made the course not very fun, isn't that what I said!  LOL

Dave,

I think your bone of contention has more to do with maintenance and conditions than the structure and architecture of the golf course.

Think of the golf courses you like, then put the greens at 13+ and let us know if you still feel the same way about them ?


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2013, 09:54:05 AM »
I think we need a new thread entitled "Sh&*$y Courses I Love"...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2013, 12:23:00 PM »
I think we need a new thread entitled "Sh&*$y Courses I Love"...

Yes, Yes, Yes.

Tom Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2013, 03:29:59 PM »
Winged Foot West.  Flame away.  I find it repetitive and tedious.  An incredible championship test but just not much fun for me.  Would play the East Course (which I love) 4-1 over the West.

 

Chris Luce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2013, 11:18:12 PM »
Winged Foot West for me too.  Lots of things I loved about my one visit there, but so few holes that really stick in my memory. Suspect I would gain appreciation with subsequent plays. Does a great parkland course tend to reveal itself over time versus knocking your socks off out of the gate?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2013, 11:30:52 PM »
Tom & Chris,

WFW is  HARD.

Lot's of golfers playing WFW for the first time walk away with their confidence shaken.

As to the individual holes, I think they're pretty memorable with no back and forth parallel holes, and the green surrounds and putting surfaces are certainly unique.

But it is a HARD golf course.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2013, 01:10:52 AM »
Quaker (routing)

Fenway (#s 7 -14)

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2013, 03:38:10 PM »
Plainfield: I enjoyed and appreciated the routing.  The greens were quick/slick which is ok; but miss a faiway by a yard and you're taking out your sand wedge to hack the ball back into the fairway. Just no chance for a recovery when I played the course.

If I was good enough to hit 10-12 fairways per round and really advance the ball from that rough I'd be doing something else for a living.

That said, playing the course 1x/year is ok.

  

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses You Dont Like
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2013, 03:52:33 PM »
At Royal Troon I had the feeling I was playing the same hole over and over, same with Talking Stick North.

Bandon Trails defeats the purpose of travelling to a links destination for golf.

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