Holland and Scotland - how does this stack up?

[Brett_Morrissy]

A close friend of mine and his partner are planning a trip to Europe in May '14 - I would like to ask for comments from those better travelled and read than I, are there any glaring omissions from the itinerary below? My friend did an extensive UK and Ireland trip a few years back, so he has only scheduled a couple of repeat plays to that trip: TOC (if ballot comes thru) & Dornoch - and has selected the courses he thinks his partner should see - he has left out North Berwick - which I think is a must. Below is proposed schedule, if there are any 'second tier' lower cost options he would be happy to hear them. (travelling from Melbourne)

Holland 5 - 12th May
*Kennemer
Koninklijke Haaesche
Noorwiske
options: UGC De Pan or The Dutch

Scotland 12-30th May

The Old
Dukes St Andrew or Downfield
Murcarlinks
Castle Stuart
Royal Dornoch
Nairn
Western Gailes
Prestwick

options: Boat of Garten , Spey Valley and Blairegowrie or....?

any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
BM

[David_Tepper]

Brett M. -

That is a fine itinerary. However, I don't see the point of traveling to the Aberdeen area to only play Murcar. If your friends are going to detour up that way, they should add either Cruden Bay or Royal Aberdeen to make it worth their while.

Otherwise, they would be better off heading straight up to the Highlands and playing an additional round at Royal Dornoch or maybe a round at Brora.

Another option would be to play the King's Course at Gleneagles either on their way up to or down from the Highlands.

DT    

[David Harshbarger]

I've seen posts on other threads about the joys of playing the little no-name courses that dot the landscape.  You might find it worthwhile to leave some time in the schedule to do just that.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks DT - I think there is a bit of sightseeing included also on the trip to Aberdeen, and that Murcar was cost effective option compared to neighbour. I think he is also planning to revisit Cruden bay.
Brora sounds like a good addition to their itinerary.

I have also encouraged him to play more at Dornoch. he is unsure, but hopes to find time to get in a few replay rounds later in the day, if he can drag himself out of the pub or dining room.

David - do you know if there is a specific thread dedicated to these 'little no-namers" ?

[David_Tepper]

Brett M. -

In addition to Brora, the lesser known courses in the Dornoch area are Golspie, Tain and Fortrose & Rosemarkie. Duff House Royal (in Banff) is a parkland course well worth playing between Aberdeen & Inverness. Fraserburgh, north of Aberdeen is a very good links.

DT

[David Harshbarger]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56871.msg1322893.html#msg1322893

This is M. Doak's recent take on the concept of not top 100 courses worth playing.  He stumbled on a course that he found interesting in the Scottish lands.  

The larger point is to find some course you don't know exists until you drive by.  

Sounds like a great trip already.

Dave

[Frank Pont]

Brent,

In Holland my take would be:

Top 4

R Hague
Kennemer
De Pan
Noordwijk

Next 4

Eindhoven
Hilversum
Swinkelsche
Dutch

But I would also get the views of the last BUDA participants, they are probably more neutral than me

[Tom_Doak]

Brett:

My own personal ranking of the Dutch courses would have De Pan first, not tied for fourth.  Choosing between De Pan and The Dutch is like choosing between a great heathland course and a faux links.

The selection of Scottish courses is just odd, to me.  Looks like there are 3-4 courses that are chosen as must-plays [St. Andrews, Dornoch, Prestwick, and Castle Stuart, though it does not really belong in THAT category], and then the companion courses are chosen on the basis of budget.  Seems very strange to go all that way, and then let $300 be the difference in what one chooses to play.  I can totally understand not wanting to fork over the money for the other Open rota venues, but my advice would be to include one or two more courses of interest regardless of budget, and then play one or two rounds on the little £30 - 40 courses that will show you what golf in Scotland is really about.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks to you all: DT, David, Frank & Tom.

I really appreciate the advice and will pass on ASAP, as he is trying to get things booked.
Thanks again.
Brett

[Thomas Dai]

..do you know if there is a specific thread dedicated to these 'little no-namers" ?

There is a website dedicated to Scottish 9-hole courses. It's been highlighted on GCA before but for the life of me I can't find it now!

If you follow the coast northwards from St Andrews up to John O'Groats you'll find dozens of lessor namers - no offence to any I've included in this bracket or to any I've missed out - and here are some -

Scotscraig
Downfield (as you've mentioned)
Monifieth
Panmure
Carnoustie Burnside & Budden
Arbroath
Montrose (36)
Stonehaven
Balnagask (Nigg Bay) Aberdeen
Kings Links Aberdeen
Silverburn 18 at Royal Aberdeen
Murcar (as you've mentioned) have a further 9-holes as well
Rye Grass Fairways International (whoops, sorry, only kidding, couldn't resist!)
Newburgh
The (great) St Olaf 9-holer at Cruden Bay
Peterhead (27)
Inverallochy
Fraserburgh (27)
Rosehearty
Royal Tarlair
Duff House Royal (as you've mentioned)
Culllen
Strathlene
Buckpool
Spey Bay
Gramouth & Kingston
Moray at Lossiemouth (36)
Covesea
Hopeman
Nairn Dunbar
Nairn (as you've mentioned) have a further 9-holes as well
Castle Stuart (you've mentioned it)
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Portmahomack
Tain
Bonar Bridge
Skibo/Carnigie (very pricey/exclusive)
Royal Dornoch - 36-holes inc 18-hole Struie course
Golspie
Brora
Helmsdale
Lybster
Wick
.......and theses are just the coastal courses

Unless they have access to a special deal and/or are determined to play the Dukes at St Andrew, Downfield, Murcar, Castle Stuart and Nairn they may get better value from a pick-n-mix combination from the above list. IMO Royal Dornoch, Royal Aberdeen and Cruden Bay as 'musts' though, even more so if you've traveled a long, long way.

Wherever they play I hope your close friend and partner have a great trip.

All the best.

[Ulrich Mayring]

For me de Pan is a tree-lined course with some pedestrian holes at the beginning of the round. The views at Kennemer, Noordwijk and The Hague are in another league, with playing strategies, turf and short-game interest being at least equal to de Pan.

Royal Hague is probably the best course of the lot, while 27 holes at Kennemer with lunch in-between are the best day of golf. The Dutch is not a must-see and not unique, de Pan (while only #4 on my list) is both.

I would also highly recommend to include Cruden Bay and North Berwick. Consider losing TOC. Yes, I'm serious (unless you have a tee time). Why go to Fife just because of TOC and then fill out your time there with the Dukes. It makes much more sense to add another day or two near Aberdeen and then perhaps stop at North Berwick for another day. Go to Fife another time, when you can also do Carnoustie.

Ulrich

[Mark Pearce]

I didn't play Kennemer at BUDA, of the courses I did play De Pan was certainly the best, followed by Royal Hague.  Noordwijkse was certainly the toughest but was less enjoyable than De pan or RH.

[David Davis]

Brett,

Holland is my home and I'm a strong proponent of the golf there. So is Frank. His choice of courses is spot on and if your friends can only play 4 courses those are the 4.

Noordwijkse
Royal Hague
Kennemer
De Pan

My opinion:

De Pan - best members course, fun and quite easy when the course is in good shape. Also the cleanest routing on a small property. It's a great heathland course. Not to be missed but access can be tough.

Royal Hague - most dramatic routing over the dunes as apposed to through them. Great experience to play.

Kennemer - 27 holes that are pretty solid, some excellent but a few average stretches, still very fun.

Noordwijkse - my home - your friends are welcome to get in touch with me if I'm around and I'm happy to host them.

Rather than me telling them what's best or anyone else doing that they should simply judge for themselves but these 4 are head and shoulders above the rest.

[Mike_Clayton]

David,Frank

We played the 1984 Dutch Open in Arnhem. I have some good memories of that course. How is it now?

[Ed Brzezowski]

If you get a chance in Fife look at Crail, two nice courses. Plus a great pro who will go out of his way to help you enjoy your visit. Four times and never disappointed.

[Frank Pont]

David,Frank

We played the 1984 Dutch Open in Arnhem. I have some good memories of that course. How is it now?

You are talking about. Roosendaelsche.
Probably one of the most dramatic pieces of land for an heathland golf course in Holland, with Hoge Kleij.
So lots of potential, but unfortunately the course IMO doesn't really deliver.
It is a good driving course, but lacks interest on and around the greens, which puts it one notch below Pan, Eindhoven and Hilversum.

They recently went through a bunker renovation under German architect, and now the course has Nicklaus style bunkers, which IMO doesn't really fit.
Also building two new holes which should improve the course.
If you could start from scratch it could have been be as good as De Pan!

PS. For the record, I worked with the club in the past, but we split ways since we did not agree on the need for a more rigorous routing and green complex changes

[Mike_Clayton]

Frank,

That measures with my memory of it - I remember Langer making a 7 at the 17th and still shooting very low.Maybe 62. And Trevino bought the Ping putter he won the USPGA with a few weeks later in the pro-shop.
I can't imagine Nicklaus style bunkers working on that land - something wrong with Colt's style?

[Frank Pont]

Mike,

great story on Trevino, I don't see Tiger buying a putter in a pro shop at a tourney nowadays....

Nothing wrong with Colt's style, rather with the Club-official's tastes  

[Bill_McBride]

If you go up to Dornoch, you really need to play both Golspie and Brora one day and Dornoch x2 another.  Really good golf up that way. 

By the same token Aberdeen needs to see Royal Aberdeen, Crudeness and Murcar on the agenda. 

[ward peyronnin]

NO One ever mentions Burnt Island just over the bridge in Fife. Willie park and fabulous for 30 pounds

[David Davis]

Mike,

That's a great story. Rosendaelsche, funny story from my side, the first time I had ever seen the course was right after the bunkering was done so I had no idea what it had looked like. I went through it and really liked the look of it, reminded me of a really nice US forest course with the modern imported powdery white sand and clover shape bunkers everywhere. Sounds bad but I didn't even notice, or it didn't dawn on me that it was a heathland course. Then I saw some old photos and learned that it was designed by Colt and was a classic heathland and now I'm a bit shocked that they let one gentleman with questionable knowledge of golf architecture transform a classic heathland into a quasi modern course.

Opinions change, mine sure did and I think it's a lot different course than the one you played. It's still really good, but a fraction of what it could be I guess.

Too bad Frank or someone else who's a competent Colt restorer didn't get a proper go at it. Maybe someday...

[Mike_Clayton]

David,

Maybe someone can take it back one day - my 30 year old memory of it is one of something that could be as good as the best heathland courses in Holland.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Guys, just a couple more questions from my mate, he is over the moon with the feedback, and some pm's.

They are wondering if The Renaissance Club is worth a try, or should they play Nth Berwick (again)?

And which two from the following would you suggest they try:
Crail (Balcombe) , Levin Links , Panmure , Lady Bank or Downfield...?

Thanks again

[Mark Pearce]

And which two from the following would you suggest they try:
Crail (Balcombe) , Levin Links , Panmure , Lady Bank or Downfield...?

I'd forget Downfield and Ladybank from that list.  Both good courses but not as exciting as others.  Balcomie is great fun, has some really good holes but a few mundane ones, Leven has some wonderful holes near the sea but drops off a bit inland, it's also pretty tough, Panmure starts and finishes blandly but has some wonderful holes when you get into the dunes.  I'm surprised not to see Elie in that list.  In Fife, Elie might well be my choice.  North of the Tay, Panmure.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Elie is a good course, but not really a links, if that carries any weight. Foreigners often come to the UK especially to play links courses with sea views. Crail Balcomie is the ticket then.

Ulrich