[George Pazin]

Chris,

I'm not endorsing David's critique nor his manner of expressing it, but you might consider choosing your words more carefully when it comes to Ballyneal.  To this outside observer, it does seem like you often insert little digs when discussing Ballyneal (e.g. "little debate about lodging and culinary," etc.).  You may suppose you're just being candid, but these sorts of editorial comments are unnecessary and are easy to misinterpret (giving you the benefit of the doubt here).  

This is not directly entirely at you, Tim, I'm just using your post to illustrate a common theme on this site.

At some point, with your friends, doesn't everyone on here place some trust in them to not infer that they are not obliquely slamming everyone else when making comments like Chris J made in his explanation? When my friends and I are sitting around, shooting the shit about all sorts of things, we make all sorts of comments far worse than just about anything I've seen on here.

If I were to mention that my son is a good looking kid - pretty much every adult woman who has seen him has said that, a neighbor who hosted a sleepover for her daughter (my son's close friend) said many of the other little girls in his grade (4th) have crushes on him - do you honestly think I'm saying your kid is unattractive? That's the way people seem to interpret things on here.

I started a series on here, loved by some, hated by others, called Get To Know. The entire purpose of the series was that in getting to know each other better on here, we would stop the silly "gotcha" moments that are holding back TRULY frank discussion on here, IMHO.

The series failed miserably in that sense. Paranoia, word parsing and distrust abounds.

So sad, among so many bright, kind, generous, thoughtful people.

[DMoriarty]

Aside from being a Class A DICK, are you open game personally?  Why don't we open you up for a peek?  Hmm...interesting.

Am I open game personally?  Given the sleazy innuendo in this comment, I guess you've already that decided I am. Classy move on your part.

[DMoriarty]

Let's follow up on your analogy, because I think it is a good one and I've actually heard conversations a little bit like the one below.  

Let's say we have kids that are about the same age and go to the same school.  

I say, "Our children are both great kids in their own way, but they are nothing like each other."  

You ask, "Why would you say that?"

I respond, "Well, first of all my son is very attractive. He is different from your son in that respect.  Also my son excels at athletics.  And my son is quite bright, and excels at music.  And I almost forgot, my son is very polite and always respectful of adults.  My son is a funloving Angel without an evil bone in his body.  So both boys are great, but just different."

This conversation seems much more analogous to what is going on here.

As for the rest of your post, though, I agree.   Chances are if Chris Johnston and I had met on a ski-lift in Jackson Hole, we'd have gotten along just fine, and would probably not treat each other the same way.  Same goes for me and some of the other Dismal boys.  

[John Cowden]

Does anyone have a sense of how many members DR and BN share in common?   I daresay the extreme views reflected by the more opinionated, close-minded and obstreperous posters here do not reflect or represent the culture (vibe?), or membership, at either club.  Heaven help me if I somehow found myself in such a distasteful place.

[Chris Johnston]

That said, we place a tremendous deal of emphasis on things like lodging and culinary, and I mentioned it in context in response to Chris.  

...

CJ

I've not been to Dismal, but in my one trip to Ballyneal about a year ago, I thought the accommodations and the food were pretty damn good (maybe a little too good if you know what I mean).  I'm sure they're absolutely first class at Dismal, but it just seems like sort of a strange point of emphasis to make in contrast with a place (like Ballyneal) that already does an outstanding job on lodging and culinary.  Or perhaps my tastes are simply too pedestrian.                                              

Bill:

Again, I wasn't trying to put Ballyneal down, and am sorry if it came across that way.  The original comment came from a request from Chris asking for me to elaborate on "we don't compete...".  

While not interested in a detailed culinary discussion and digging the hole deeper, we source the finest beef and hand trim it in house, we fly lobster in fresh from Maine, and fly in fresh fish "off the boat" once a week.  Really special stuff, and pretty unique for a golf club.  Simply, that is what I meant by saying it is a point of emphasis...for us.   If you ever do come out, I'd suggest a 30 day dry aged (in Mullen) Cowboy cut ribeye steak, coupled with a tail.  Hard to beat...but it hasn't improved my putting.

I'd also recommend a 4bedroom/4bath with living room Signature Cabin, with showers you could park a compact car in and water pressure that would exfoliate an elephant...all with a really nice view.  Pure heaven.

Do those things matter?  Simply, they do to us.

[John Kavanaugh]

Does anyone have a sense of how many members DR and BN share in common?   I daresay the extreme views reflected by the more opinionated, close-minded and obstreperous posters here do not reflect or represent the culture (vibe?), or membership, at either club.  Heaven help me if I somehow found myself in such a distasteful place.

J,

If you recall David almost destroyed the site with his Merion ramblings.  He is now focused on Chris and Dismal. He will never stop. If you have been paying attention his current tactic is to try to bring every thread into his mission.

His most disgusting and revealing tactic is how he now quotes Tom MacWood as if they were friends. David has no boundaries.  I know that Chris can defend himself but he hasn't been around here long enough to know the level of sickness he is dealing with.  This has indeed become a sad state of affairs.

[George Pazin]

This conversation seems much more analogous to what is going on here.

This is where I disagree, quite a bit. I do think some people take it this far (usually in response to someone else's goading), but I believe far more often, it's much closer to simply saying, I've been to both/played both/seen both/whatever, and I think course X is better at such and such than course Y.

This doesn't mean course Y is terrible at such and such, just not as good as course X, IN THAT POSTER'S OPINION.

We're all big boys on here, it shouldn't be necessary to qualify everything everyone posts and says and thinks. All of us are capable of knowing each person's viewpoint is biased in some way, and each of us is capable of placing his own value of how much that bias is affecting the person's thoughts. Instead, most seem to approach discussion as something that needs to be WON, instead of merely something that benefits everyone simply by its exposition, and most are not satisfied unless the other person simply bends over and meekly accepts the victor's triumphant rationale.

Does anyone have a sense of how many members DR and BN share in common?   I daresay the extreme views reflected by the more opinionated, close-minded and obstreperous posters here do not reflect or represent the culture (vibe?), or membership, at either club.  Heaven help me if I somehow found myself in such a distasteful place.

J,

If you recall David almost destroyed the site with his Merion ramblings.  He is now focused on Chris and Dismal. He will never stop. If you have been paying attention his current tactic is to try to bring every thread into his mission.

His most disgusting and revealing tactic is how he now quotes Tom MacWood as if they were friends. David has no boundaries.  I know that Chris can defend himself but he hasn't been around here long enough to know the level of sickness he is dealing with.  This has indeed become a sad state of affairs.

Bizarre, to say the least.

[DMoriarty]

J.  To be just be clear I'm not a member of either club.  Don't let your low opinion of me impact the way you feel about either of them.  Despite my differences with Chris, I am sure both have terrific members and cultures.

[Chris Johnston]

Aside from being a Class A DICK, are you open game personally?  Why don't we open you up for a peek?  Hmm...interesting.

Am I open game personally?  Given the sleazy innuendo in this comment, I guess you've already that decided I am. Classy move on your part.

David,

You must be a mind reader since, you have already guessed what decisions I make.  Making things personal really isn't my style, but I admit getting a bit of pleasure with bullies like you.  Having fun yet?  

As to Jackson Hole...it is a terrific, if not the best, ski mountain/destination in the lower 48, second in vertical to Whistler in B.C.  Wonderful accommodations and culinary offerings too.    Pretty challenging mountain technically, and not for everyone.     If you can ski, and love vertical and backcountry skiing, it's the place for you.    If you want softer bunny hills, we aren't the place.  There are some who prefer more mild and refined Colorado, but Jackson Hole was just selected as the #1 resort.  I'll wait for the Vail/Aspen etc. crowd to jump in and talk about cheap passes and apres ski.  

Time share anyone?

[Bill Seitz]

While not interested in a detailed culinary discussion and digging the hole deeper, we source the finest beef and hand trim it in house, we fly lobster in fresh from Maine, and fly in fresh fish "off the boat" once a week.  Really special stuff, and pretty unique for a golf club.  Simply, that is what I meant by saying it is a point of emphasis...for us.   If you ever do come out, I'd suggest a 30 day dry aged (in Mullen) Cowboy cut ribeye steak, coupled with a tail.  Hard to beat...but it hasn't improved my putting.

I'd also recommend a 4bedroom/4bath with living room Signature Cabin, with showers you could park a compact car in and water pressure that would exfoliate an elephant...all with a really nice view.  Pure heaven.

Do those things matter?  Simply, they do to us.

It all sounds fantastic, and I sincerely mean that.  From the pictures I've seen on other threads, it all looks phenomenal.  My dad was in the food business for 35 years as a buyer for Sheraton, so I know from good steaks and seafood.  Personally, however, after 36 or 54 holes at my club, I kind of prefer heading back to the cottage with my playing partners, firing up the grill, and relaxing on the porch with with a couple of brats left for us by our chef, and a nice growler of beer that we picked up from a local brewery on the drive up.  But like I said, my tastes may be pedestrian.  If I still have enough strength at the end of the day to put down a huge steak, then I haven't played enough golf that day.  

[Chris Johnston]

While not interested in a detailed culinary discussion and digging the hole deeper, we source the finest beef and hand trim it in house, we fly lobster in fresh from Maine, and fly in fresh fish "off the boat" once a week.  Really special stuff, and pretty unique for a golf club.  Simply, that is what I meant by saying it is a point of emphasis...for us.   If you ever do come out, I'd suggest a 30 day dry aged (in Mullen) Cowboy cut ribeye steak, coupled with a tail.  Hard to beat...but it hasn't improved my putting.

I'd also recommend a 4bedroom/4bath with living room Signature Cabin, with showers you could park a compact car in and water pressure that would exfoliate an elephant...all with a really nice view.  Pure heaven.

Do those things matter?  Simply, they do to us.

It all sounds fantastic, and I sincerely mean that.  From the pictures I've seen on other threads, it all looks phenomenal.  Personally, however, after 36 or 54 holes at my club, I kind of prefer heading back to the cottage with my playing partners, firing up the grill, and relaxing on the porch with with a couple of brats left for us by our chef, and a nice growler of beer that we picked up from a local brewery on the drive up.  But like I said, my tastes may be pedestrian.  If I'm not so tired at the end of the day that I lack the strength to put down a huge steak, then I haven't played enough golf that day.  

  
 

I love Brats too.  We serve them at lunch here on Saturdays!

[Carl Nichols]

FWIW, I don't know Chris J from Adam, and I don't think he needs any help defending himself, but I see absolutely nothing wrong at all with any of his posts.  From Day One he has been completely transparent about his involvement with DR, and so all of us (including David Moriarty) have always had the information to take his posts with a grain of salt if we want; that's exactly why David M is able to lob the accusations he does.  I, in contrast, find his posts well-informed, interesting, and informative.  And I still haven't seen anyone point out how the opinions he's expressed on this thread are actually off-base.

[JC Jones]

I kind of prefer heading back to the cottage with my playing partners, firing up the grill, and relaxing on the porch with with a couple of brats left for us by our chef, and a nice growler of beer that we picked up from a local brewery on the drive up.  But like I said, my tastes may be pedestrian.  

I guess I'm pedestrian too because this is/was perfection.  Though I'm fat, so I opted for one of Jud's steaks.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Now there's a boxing match I'd pay to see, Kingsley's understated hospitality model v. Dismal's 5 lb. porterhouses.  Its almost the Frazier v. Ali of the modern day.  Perhaps we can finally find out whose firepit reigns supreme.

[John Kavanaugh]

Now there's a boxing match I'd pay to see, Kingsley's understated hospitality model v. Dismal's 5 lb. porterhouses.  Its almost the Frazier v. Ali of the modern day.  Perhaps we can finally find out whose firepit reigns supreme.

Do you guys really want to take on me and Eric Smith?  People are either going to die or be arrested as I have already tested the boundaries of each.

[Sven Nilsen]

Who are "you guys"?  And take you on in what?

Apologize if my attempt to interject some levity into the thread was misinterpreted.  

I also apologize if you didn't pick up on the subtext that there are different strokes for different folks.  What makes Dismal attractive to some from a hospitality standpoint may be a turn off to others, just as a certain type of client would not get "enough" from the Kingsley experience.  

Its interesting to me that from what I can tell Ballyneal falls somewhere in the middle of the two (except its lacking a firepit).

  

[JC Jones]

Sven,

This doesn't help your case but I found it funny. You are absolutely right, there is a club out there for everyone.  We've all had great experiences at all kinds of clubs.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Some people like to test the outer limits of the human condition while others want to hold hands and walk through a meadow. I'm not judging either.

[Sven Nilsen]

Christ man, didn't you learn anything from Steve Irwin?

Seriously, I wasn't aware that joining Dismal made one a card carrying member of the Rex Kramer Danger Seeker Club.

[John Kavanaugh]

Christ man, didn't you learn anything from Steve Irwin?

Seriously, I wasn't aware that joining Dismal made one a card carrying member of the Rex Kramer Danger Seeker Club.

What makes you think that I don't like holding hands and walking through a meadow? Don't you recall our first ever conversation?

[Sven Nilsen]

In person or on the site?  In either case, I don't remember any hand holding (NTTAWWT).

I do recall sending you a series of questions that you preferred to address offline that to this day remain unanswered.  Perhaps you were waiting for our next walk in the park to respond.  Or perhaps you posted the answers on your Myspace page.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Chris J,

Thanks very much for the response and helping me better understand your point-of-view.  As an owner/operator of a national, destination golf club, you offer a unique perspective on this game we all love and the experiences you are working to create at Dismal River.  I haven't had the privilege of seeing and experiencing your club first hand, but the reviews and sentiment here, along with your great website certainly make it sound like an amazing place.  Congratulations and best of luck.

As for the "not competing" with Ballyneal, I am more inclined to agree with Jim Colton's line of thinking and might add the qualifier of "not that much."  I would guess I might be in your target demographic - I love golf on great courses, I am willing to travel to feed my love for golf in special places, and I love the idea of "destination" golf with friends.  I also happen to love good food and a good drink - throw in a fire pit and I am generally sold.  I was very fortunate to visit Ballyneal last year as a guest and really loved the place and the idea of a national membership at a club like Ballyneal or Dismal River is really appealing.  For me, I can pretty easily make the leap in seeing someone like me trying to make a choice between the two clubs - I am guessing that is why you are working hard to differentiate Dismal River from Ballyneal - two golf courses, lodging and food, carts, etc. - and I think that is fine and probably wise in today's market place.  

Thanks again for taking the time to respond and for offering your insights on your club - and again, best of luck...

[Eric Smith]

Who are "you guys"?  And take you on in what?

Apologize if my attempt to interject some levity into the thread was misinterpreted.  

I also apologize if you didn't pick up on the subtext that there are different strokes for different folks.  What makes Dismal attractive to some from a hospitality standpoint may be a turn off to others, just as a certain type of client would not get "enough" from the Kingsley experience.  

Its interesting to me that from what I can tell Ballyneal falls somewhere in the middle of the two (except its lacking a firepit).

  

Sven,

I've enjoyed overnight stays at all three of these clubs and consider each to be exceptional. They all do what they do so very well and it is readily apparent that their members and guests couldn't be happier. That is really what it is all about anyway.

As for Kavanaugh's challenge - I am ready and willing to share a few drinks with you guys anytime. Firepit or otherwise. One of my good friends told me just today that he sent in his membership papers to Kingsley so I'm really excited for him and looking forward to heading up with him sometime next season. I'll see if he'll allow me to bring JK.

[John Cowden]

I think you've just initiated a new whoring thread, Eric.  Sounds great!  

[Andrew Lewis]

Who are "you guys"?  And take you on in what?

Apologize if my attempt to interject some levity into the thread was misinterpreted.  

I also apologize if you didn't pick up on the subtext that there are different strokes for different folks.  What makes Dismal attractive to some from a hospitality standpoint may be a turn off to others, just as a certain type of client would not get "enough" from the Kingsley experience.  

Its interesting to me that from what I can tell Ballyneal falls somewhere in the middle of the two (except its lacking a firepit).

  

Sven,

I've enjoyed overnight stays at all three of these clubs and consider each to be exceptional. They all do what they do so very well and it is readily apparent that their members and guests couldn't be happier. That is really what it is all about anyway.

As for Kavanaugh's challenge - I am ready and willing to share a few drinks with you guys anytime. Firepit or otherwise. One of my good friends told me just today that he sent in his membership papers to Kingsley so I'm really excited for him and looking forward to heading up with him sometime next season. I'll see if he'll allow me to bring JK.

Eric,

For what it's with, JK has an open invite from me to Kingsley. Call it the "Evanaville connection"

Cheers, Andrew

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