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JESII

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #425 on: October 22, 2013, 07:12:14 AM »
I'm not involved with any of these courses in any way...but I assume he's thinking they just want people to commit some of their golf time and money to the region and all will benefit. Rising tide lifting all boats.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #426 on: October 22, 2013, 10:31:19 AM »
Ballyneal isn't a competitor of ours - we compete with everything else.

Chris, if you don't mind, I would love for you to expound on this a little further...

Chris - don't mind at all.

We don't compete...Dismal River and Ballyneal use different models, and are 3ish hours apart.  Both are great. Managements and most members are friendly.  I think some members may naturally measure their club against the other, golfwise, but there is little debate about lodging and culinary...what we call the experience.  Dismal is more than 2 times the size of Ballyneal (2 courses/78 guest beds) and each appeals to a different audience.  Ballyneal is mandated walking and we give people the choice to walk or ride...this too appeals to different audiences.  Dismal does, maybe 10%, of "couples" business on weekends so we are very mindful of both the male and female sides of golf.  We enjoy when the ladies come out and consider them a big part of our future.   We have an exercise room, theatre room, cool firepit, poker and pool rooms for evening activities...also part of the experience.  Both clubs have great members, and I'm thrilled when a guy or gal joins either. 

It's funny, seldom does a member candidate at Dismal say they are choosing between the two, and I'd wager it's the same at Ballyneal.  There are a lot of "pot stirrers" around here that almost wish for an unhealthy relationship...parsing every word...stuff the people involved on both sides find funny.  It's kind of like the guy in the upper deck screaming at the player in the game on the field.  Both clubs have, dare I say, colorful pasts.  I honestly don't spend any time thinking about what Ballyneal is up to - we collaborate alot and probably know some things before the members do.  We are what we are, and the focus is on a terrific experience.  The guys and gals who join Dismal know we as owners are committed long term, and this is a long term proposition.  I don't have any idea about that at Ballyneal but know it has been painful.  I know how hard the people at both places work to make magic happen for a wide range of people.  If anything, as Jim said, I think we compliment each other regionally. 

I'm a lighterning rod for some on GCA, kind of "small ball" in my opinion.  Imagine someone telling you that you shouldn't comment here due to a perceived competition that doesn't really exist.  Pretty silly, actually. 

We compete with everything else...This is the challenge for us and the game of golf.  People are more busy than ever, with work, family, and  myriad other interests including good golf in alot of locales.  We are very fortunate that there are people who want an oasis...a place to get away for a few days to a cool place with family and friends.  I was thrilled to see Jim Colton's earlier port about celebrating his birthday with family at his club...a place he loves that isn't exactly next door.  That's pretty cool.  We have the same here at Dismal - committed members who love the place, who make the club a priority, and travel far to get here.  Some here think of these clubs as a second home...or second family.

We don't compete with your local course, or club.  In a big way (with travel involved) we compete with Disney, Vegas, the Beach and other "getway and recharge" places.  That's why the lodging and culinary have to be excellent, and women are welcome.  We also share a fair amount of crossover play with Ballyneal and Sand Hills...and that's a good thing for all!  The game and place are about fun, and if you can't have fun here, we realize there are other options.

Hope it helps.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #427 on: October 22, 2013, 10:44:47 AM »
Congrats to Dismal River. Ballyneal had a nice run.

For the judges, how would you score DR Red vs Sand Hills, the defending world champ?



Jim,

Who won the free round at Ballyneal you were offering for best predicting the results?

The anticipation is killing me! I can't even find the predictions I sent to see if they were close to accurate or not. I predict not, but it's fun to dream about Colorado and golf and sandhills any time.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #428 on: October 22, 2013, 11:30:49 AM »
Congrats to Dismal River. Ballyneal had a nice run.

For the judges, how would you score DR Red vs Sand Hills, the defending world champ?



Jim,

Who won the free round at Ballyneal you were offering for best predicting the results?

The anticipation is killing me! I can't even find the predictions I sent to see if they were close to accurate or not. I predict not, but it's fun to dream about Colorado and golf and sandhills any time.

The winner has been notified.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #429 on: October 22, 2013, 12:00:30 PM »
Jim - I thought your comments may have been tongue in cheeck and I am sorry if you did not appreciate mine.  I just try to stay away from derogatory or flipant comments...especially when it comes to golf.  If you criticize my wife or kids, I will get extremely upset. Golf just isn't important enough.  For those that know the reference (one of my favorite rants in sports history) - "I am 40, I am a man.  Criticize me."  Regardless, I appreciate your love of Ballyneal and loved seeing the pictures of you and your son on FB last weekend - that really is what it is all about.

CJ - While I may not agree with everything, I very much agree with you in one respect.  I really believe that places like Dismal River and Ballyneal need each other to strengthen the region.  It is like Erin Hills and Whistling Straits.  Has Erin Hills taken business away from Whistling Straits.  I don't think so and in fact, think quite the opposite.  I believe that the two places now attract more visitors to Wisconsin because they have more great golf to be played.   I realize that there is a slight difference with the private club model, but I think the principal still applies.  

It is similar to the restaurant industry.  Sometimes when a group of restaurants open in a district (say Lincoln Park in Chicago when the area first started to develop many years ago), they raise the entire district and help each other.  If one restaurant fails, it often can lead to a decline of the district and damage the remaining restaurant(s).



« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 12:03:30 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #430 on: October 22, 2013, 12:05:44 PM »
Well now that Chris has clarified, I can really see that he is not here to shill his project and he would never ever take thinly veiled swipes at Ballyneal. They aren't even competitors.  

And his many point-by-point breakdowns of all the things he thinks Dismal offers but Ballyneal doesn't?  Well those are just emphasize how they couldn't possibly competing.  
- How could they be considered competitors when Dismal has 78 rooms and two golf courses, twice as many as Ballyneal?
- How could they be considered competitors when Dismal is just so darn family friendly?
- How could they be considered competitors when Dismal allows golfers the choice of whether to walk or ride but Ballyneal doesn't?

They aren't competitors because Dismal is catering to the golfer who loves family, and enjoys a round of golf with his good old dad, whereas Ballyneal would never allow a father and son experience the joys of golf together.  So they aren't even competing for the same clientele!

And as to why Chris likes to repeatedly bring up what he has inaccurately (IMO) characterized as the poor decisions and mistakes made a Ballyneal regarding agronomy issues, well that is just neigbborly concern and attempts at cooperation on his part.   He likes to repeatedly and misleadingly point out that Ballyneal had to "change" all 18 greens because he is just being a friendly neighbor.  Except that he isn't anywhere near the place when it comes to the issue of whether he is a competitor.


Don't these longwinded, sleazy sales pitches usually come with two free nights in a condo or something?  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 12:08:15 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #431 on: October 22, 2013, 12:11:40 PM »
Jim - I thought your comments may have been tongue in cheeck and I am sorry if you did not appreciate mine.  I just try to stay away from derogatory or flipant comments...especially when it comes to golf.  If you criticize my wife or kids, I will get extremely upset. Golf just isn't important enough.  For those that know the reference (one of my favorite rants in sports history) - "I am 40, I am a man.  Criticize me."  Regardless, I appreciate your love of Ballyneal and loved seeing the pictures of you and your son on FB last weekend - that really is what it is all about.

CJ - While I may not agree with everything, I very much agree with you in one respect.  I really believe that places like Dismal River and Ballyneal need each other to strengthen the region.  It is like Erin Hills and Whistling Straits.  Has Erin Hills taken business away from Whistling Straits.  I don't think so and in fact, think quite the opposite.  I believe that the two places now attract more visitors to Wisconsin because they have more great golf to be played.   I realize that there is a slight difference with the private club model, but I think the principal still applies.  

It is similar to the restaurant industry.  Sometimes when a group of restaurants open in a district (say Lincoln Park in Chicago when the area first started to develop many years ago), they raise the entire district and help each other.  If one restaurant fails, it often can lead to a decline of the district and damage the remaining restaurant(s).


Micheal,

I agree with you.  When Ballyneal went through bankruptcy, it certainly affected us.  Members and prospects were concerned that it would happen to us.  Now that things are more stable, all places in the neighborhood are doing well, similar to your retaurant analogy.

I would also agree that there is a tangible symbiotic relationship with all clubs in this region.  If one suffers, we all have challenges.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #432 on: October 22, 2013, 12:15:39 PM »
David,

You're pretty far out of bounds here!

Ballyneal is regressing all 18 greens.

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #433 on: October 22, 2013, 12:35:44 PM »
Ballyneal isn't a competitor of ours - we compete with everything else.

Chris, if you don't mind, I would love for you to expound on this a little further...

Chris H.,

 I would classify it as the clubs don't compete "that much", because of many of the differences that CJ mentioned. The clubs are naturally going to attract different types of golfers.

 I'm not sure how the women/family aspect got thrown in there, but I imagine it's the same at either club. I just came away from two days of four hour 9-hole rounds and a glorious late-afternoon fivesome that included my 6-year old human ball of energy. One nice selling point of BN that is important to me is that my kids are included on my membership until they are 26. And I believe I can transfer my membership to them down the road and still keep my membership.

 That said, because of all of the other reasons CJ mentioned, the destination golf club is a small and pretty niche market. I can think of a few people who have batted around BN vs. DR vs. other clubs or other options like Outpost. Thankfully, I don't think the success of either club hinges on winning these folks on the margin. Both seem to be on great trajectories and are attracting members who enjoy what their respective clubs offer in terms of golf, vibe, etc.  For instance, Ballyneal has added over 90 members since the fallout 18 months ago, is looking at adding more beds this offseason and I'm willing to bet they add 20 more members before the initiation increases on Jan 1st.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #434 on: October 22, 2013, 12:47:00 PM »
Well now that Chris has clarified, I can really see that he is not here to shill his project and he would never ever take thinly veiled swipes at Ballyneal. They aren't even competitors.  

And his many point-by-point breakdowns of all the things he thinks Dismal offers but Ballyneal doesn't?  Well those are just emphasize how they couldn't possibly competing.  
- How could they be considered competitors when Dismal has 78 rooms and two golf courses, twice as many as Ballyneal?
- How could they be considered competitors when Dismal is just so darn family friendly?
- How could they be considered competitors when Dismal allows golfers the choice of whether to walk or ride but Ballyneal doesn't?

They aren't competitors because Dismal is catering to the golfer who loves family, and enjoys a round of golf with his good old dad, whereas Ballyneal would never allow a father and son experience the joys of golf together.  So they aren't even competing for the same clientele!

And as to why Chris likes to repeatedly bring up what he has inaccurately (IMO) characterized as the poor decisions and mistakes made a Ballyneal regarding agronomy issues, well that is just neigbborly concern and attempts at cooperation on his part.   He likes to repeatedly and misleadingly point out that Ballyneal had to "change" all 18 greens because he is just being a friendly neighbor.  Except that he isn't anywhere near the place when it comes to the issue of whether he is a competitor.


Don't these longwinded, sleazy sales pitches usually come with two free nights in a condo or something?  


David

There you go again, you jump a post by me, in response to Chris.

You act here is, again, getting old.  I was kindly asked by Chris to expand, and did my best to do so...and you show up to parse and puke.  I tried to point out some differences that make us non-competitors, yet you again twist and find something bad in a region of good.  I never said which model is better for that, after all, is up to the consumer.  I am truly sorry my posts don't measure up to your lofty standards, and humbly suggest you seek help for what has clearly become an unhealthy obsession.  Aside from being a Class A DICK, are you open game personally?  Why don't we open you up for a peek?  Hmm...interesting.

As to the agronomy issues, the fact is you don't make a substantive change for no reason, and the reason was a good one. You can twist and argue, but the facts don't change.  In the grand scheme, it's no big deal, yet you turn support for a friend and neighbor to a dark place. Mission Accomplished?  Do you actually fear we might try to use it against them?  If you think about it (and you obsessively don't) why would we do that?  Here is a clue for you, we don't market against anyone - Just like you, it's negative, and isn't our style.  We like passion, positivity, and fun!

Want to know the best thing I saw in this thread?  You don't have plans to visit Dismal River!  We'll certainly miss your sunny attitude, and you'll miss a wonderful experience.   

btw - I love your condo idea.  Midrise above Big Horsehoe?  

  


Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #435 on: October 22, 2013, 12:52:20 PM »
Ballyneal isn't a competitor of ours - we compete with everything else.

Chris, if you don't mind, I would love for you to expound on this a little further...

Chris H.,

 I would classify it as the clubs don't compete "that much", because of many of the differences that CJ mentioned. The clubs are naturally going to attract different types of golfers.

 I'm not sure how the women/family aspect got thrown in there, but I imagine it's the same at either club. I just came away from two days of four hour 9-hole rounds and a glorious late-afternoon fivesome that included my 6-year old human ball of energy. One nice selling point of BN that is important to me is that my kids are included on my membership until they are 26. And I believe I can transfer my membership to them down the road and still keep my membership.

 That said, because of all of the other reasons CJ mentioned, the destination golf club is a small and pretty niche market. I can think of a few people who have batted around BN vs. DR vs. other clubs or other options like Outpost. Thankfully, I don't think the success of either club hinges on winning these folks on the margin. Both seem to be on great trajectories and are attracting members who enjoy what their respective clubs offer in terms of golf, vibe, etc.  For instance, Ballyneal has added over 90 members since the fallout 18 months ago, is looking at adding more beds this offseason and I'm willing to bet they add 20 more members before the initiation increases on Jan 1st.

Jim - well said.

They are different, and different is a good thing.  The notion of the two being competitors is very short sighted.

Believe it, or not, I'm thrilled Ballyneal is seeing success and is on a good trajectory!  It is a very special place.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #436 on: October 22, 2013, 12:58:32 PM »
Chris,

I'm not endorsing David's critique nor his manner of expressing it, but you might consider choosing your words more carefully when it comes to Ballyneal.  To this outside observer, it does seem like you often insert little digs when discussing Ballyneal (e.g. "little debate about lodging and culinary," etc.).  You may suppose you're just being candid, but these sorts of editorial comments are unnecessary and are easy to misinterpret (giving you the benefit of the doubt here).  

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #437 on: October 22, 2013, 01:10:16 PM »
Chris,

I'm not endorsing David's critique nor his manner of expressing it, but you might consider choosing your words more carefully when it comes to Ballyneal.  To this outside observer, it does seem like you often insert little digs when discussing Ballyneal (e.g. "little debate about lodging and culinary," etc.).  You may suppose you're just being candid, but these sorts of editorial comments are unnecessary and are easy to misinterpret (giving you the benefit of the doubt here).  

Tim

Good advice.  Maybe my sin is I type as I think, and don't take much time to preview what I wrote.  

That said, we place a tremendous deal of emphasis on things like lodging and culinary, and I mentioned it in context in response to Chris.  

I think those inclined to misinterpret, do so.  It appears some live to do so.  Those who don't, don't.  Truly, life is too short to search for darkness on a golf website.

I'm glad you don't endorse David's antics.  I'll just say I'm glad I don't wear his skin.

CJ


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #438 on: October 22, 2013, 01:19:02 PM »
If you're arguing with someone who has proven they're willing to go 157 pages just to get the last word, and if no rational person would ever take that person seriously, there's no reason to continue arguing with them. Just trust the other 1498 of us to be smart enough to figure it out and don't sweat it.

Tim, I get what you're saying. But it's not exactly a secret that Chris has a vested interest in Dismal River, and he's open about it. Even if he started taking blatant dumps on Ballyneal in his posts, who cares? We're aware of his built-in and justifiable bias, and he's entitled to hold whatever opinion he wishes of any other course for whatever reason he'd like. We can't praise Tom Doak for writing the Confidential Guide and smile as people lambast courses affiliated with Art Hills, Donald Trump, Jim Engh, and basically any highly ranked non-minimalist modern course while asking people to choose their words more carefully when it comes to GCA favorites.

This thread has made both clubs look absolutely fantastic and even more appealing in my eyes, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #439 on: October 22, 2013, 01:34:26 PM »
That said, we place a tremendous deal of emphasis on things like lodging and culinary, and I mentioned it in context in response to Chris. 

Chris,

Fair enough, but that's not exactly what you said--you said, essentially, there's little debate about which club offers the better "experience," as you define it.  That's quite a bit different from simply stating that Dismal places a greater emphasis on lodging and culinary.  And this is a website about GCA so some people may not be terribly receptive to hear from the owner of Dismal that it has better food (or some other non-GCA item) than another club.  Just my two cents.

Jason,

I wouldn't say I care especially whether Chris--to use your word--dumps on Ballyneal or not.  I just thought I'd offer to Chris my view that some of his comments do seem passive-aggressive toward Ballyneal.  Assuming this isn't Chris' intent, he might want to be more sensitive to that.  I don't see that as suggesting that he back off any negative opinions about Ballyneal as a golf course. 

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #440 on: October 22, 2013, 01:43:52 PM »
Would just like to say that I’m sorry that my friend has had to endure the wrath of David, but I'm sure he'll be fine.

Also, yeah, I guess there really is some sort of rivalry after all. Call it what you want.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #441 on: October 22, 2013, 01:47:59 PM »
Colton is the one holding secret competition trying to predict who is the biggest homer.  With valuable prizes no less.  Funny thing is, the biggest homer is a member of Ballyneal.  Sweeping 16, 17 and 18.  What a joke.

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #442 on: October 22, 2013, 01:55:05 PM »
JK,

 The winner got your score pegged exactly. I thought that was pretty impressive. Murratt seemed to be the wild card. Does Jimmy have an allegiance either way?

 

 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #443 on: October 22, 2013, 01:59:22 PM »
The winner had me at 168 - 165? 

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #444 on: October 22, 2013, 02:00:27 PM »
The winner had me at 168 - 165? 

Yes. He was close on Kirk and Plumart too.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #445 on: October 22, 2013, 02:04:23 PM »
The winner had me at 168 - 165? 

Yes. He was close on Kirk and Plumart too.

That is a million to one shot and not the same as saying I would have Red 3 up.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #446 on: October 22, 2013, 02:04:35 PM »
"This should be good!  I'll stay on the sidelines, but I will sitemail my results in advance to the first neutral party who wants to hold onto them."

When do we get TD's card?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #447 on: October 22, 2013, 02:07:14 PM »
The winner had me at 168 - 165? 

Yes. He was close on Kirk and Plumart too.

That is a million to one shot and not the same as saying I would have Red 3 up.

Like I said, impressive!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #448 on: October 22, 2013, 02:38:21 PM »
1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9
7.  BN   10 - 9
8.  BN   10 - 8
9.  Red  10 - 9
10. BN  10 - 9
11. Red 10 - 9
12. BN  10 - 8
13. Red 10 - 9
14. Red 10 - 8
15. BN  10 - 9
16. Red 10 - 9
17. BN  10 - 8
18. Red 10 - 7

Red 168 - 165

The above are my final tallies.  I need to meet the guy who was able to predict this exact outcome.  

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #449 on: October 22, 2013, 03:47:14 PM »
That said, we place a tremendous deal of emphasis on things like lodging and culinary, and I mentioned it in context in response to Chris.  

...

CJ

I've not been to Dismal, but in my one trip to Ballyneal about a year ago, I thought the accommodations and the food were pretty damn good (maybe a little too good if you know what I mean).  I'm sure they're absolutely first class at Dismal, but it just seems like sort of a strange point of emphasis to make in contrast with a place (like Ballyneal) that already does an outstanding job on lodging and culinary.  Or perhaps my tastes are simply too pedestrian.                                              

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