[RJ_Daley]

On the micro point of rating the experience of a longish cart drive just to get to a practice paddock and first tee, I also agree that in such a landscape, it is actually a great part of the experience.  The ride out to the tee at SH or DR (I was only there during construction and didn't play it) but the ride is part of the anticipation.  They are pleasant rides and build a sense of place.  The ride is a sort of journey in and of itself, setting the tone where you are leaving the hub of a clubhouse and activity, to engage in the walk (or cartball ride) into a more isolated and unique place.  

Sutton Bay original was very similar in this regard.  While Sutton wasn't a mandatory cart, it was pretty much essential for all but the fittest.  Yet, the ride out there seemed nearly a mile. And, there was a bit of a ride from 18 back to one tee.  The ride was a very nice journey through that native land as well.  

Getting older, I know I would walk DR until I couldn't anymore.  It would be great if narrow but firmish 3-wheeler cart cuts from green to tee can be placed unobtrusively just to keep the old guys walking a little easier with aid of the push carts.  For most of us older guys it is the weight of the bag combined with the slope that is tough on back and knees.  A three wheeler doesn't completely cure that, but it helps and keeps the player with just that much longer of a time in life to enjoy the assisted-by-cart walk.  But, I think it is wise to have the power carts available for those that just won't or can't walk, because it would be something of a unnecessary deprivation of the golf spirit to restrict older or unable golfers, who can otherwise still hit the ball if they can get to it, thus depriving passionate golfers who would travel so far to experience this unique experience and is just wrong soley  because the walk is no longer physically possible.  

I get the notion of a modern trend moving away from a walking culture, when it comes to the issue of modern open to the public normal sort of terrain available in various regional venues where golf is developed.  But, these remote locations in unique terrain have a different sense of place, and one goes for the solitude and remote long views, etc, paired with the unique golf that can be routed and designed within them.  So, we need to cut the notion that unique places like this somehow diminish the 'golf walking culture'.  They enhance the spirit of golf no matter how you get from CH to 1rst tee or make an 18 hole second round turn, or just need the cart to make one or more rounds in the first place.  

If you made your way to Hooker Co., Holyoke, Valentine, Bandon, etc., to experience these unique offerings of golf and you ride in some fashion as part of the situation, you haven't diminished or added to a bad trend in the golf culture, you have added to the totality of the world wide passion for golf and the spirit that beckons those so motivated to embrace the game.  

[DMoriarty]

Lots of frank and thought provoking discussion.

It seems to me that most here think that finding the 18 best golf holes should be the designer's overriding goal, but that this goal will sometimes be compromised if the designer adheres to conventions such as starting/finishing near the clubhouse and/or at least starting and finishing near the first tee. In short, some feel that at least in the case of DR, returning would have been leaving a great holes out of the routing and including lesser holes.

(The above is very similar to the argument always used to justify cart-ball courses, only there the "convention" is the is distance between each green and tee.  But I'll set that aside and instead try to build on Jim Colton's post, which I don't think has been addressed.)

Why not just abandon these conventions all together? Why not just make golf a point-to-point experience, with no concern for the return. Follow the lead of brother in Gattica: You want to know how I did it? This is how I did it, Anton: I never saved anything for the swim back. Maybe designers should just find the best holes and don't save anything for the journey back.

If we abandoned the notion that ends should meet, then maybe entire courses could be like the final 13 holes are at DR, which I am told are quite good and play generally downhill.  Excellent uphill holes seem harder to come by and they lare certainly not as easy to walk, so why not just do away with them all-together? Walkers could just take a shuttle. Would a chairlift work?  It'd be fun to watch golfers playing while sipping a beer from a lift.  A course in LA had a funicular to transport golfers up a tough hill after one of the nines, so that might work as well.

I've always thought that at least part of the brilliance of Tom Doak's routing at Rock Creek was how good the uphill portion of the course is, but now I am not so sure.  I've got to admit that those downhill holes are pretty damn fun, and a much easier walk.   Is it possible that he made a mistake at Rock Creek by avoiding a point-to-point routing which would have cut out much of the climb?  Maybe playing from top to bottom would have allowed for a few more great holes . . .  the course worse for him having adhered to convention?

Or as Jim asked, what about the classics?  We have hundreds of years of courses which were held slave to the convention returning to the start.  Have carts and shuttles freed us of these chains?   Which classics could be made better if we abandon this convention.  CPC?  Would TOC be a better course if it had been an "out" routing instead of an out-and-back routing?  (Was it simply an "Out" routing at one point?  I can't remember.)
_____________________________________________________


I'll try and briefly address a few of the other comments . . .

- I agree that Sand Hills is a fantastic experience all around and I understand why most view the cart trek out to the course as enhancing the experience.  At the same time, I think it seems pretty obvious that putting the butts in carts at Sand Hills creates an inertia for riding.   In my limited experience at SH it seemed like most golfers took Don's "path of least resistance" and chose to ride, even though the course seemed reasonably walkable.  Am I wrong about this?  I recall Barney once commenting that outside of these pages Sand Hills was considered a cart ball course, and if that is true then I'd suggest that the trek up has at least something to do with this.  This isn't so much a criticism as an observation.  Even thoughtful and well-justified decisions have consequences.

- Barney and Michael George, I am not sure you guys are trying to make this about excluding carts.  I never said any such thing.

- Ben Sims, while relatively few people will ever see courses like Sand Hills or DR, if you don't think such courses impact what is happening in gca generally, then we have very different understandings.

- Chris Johnston and a few others suggest I have it out for DR.  I don't. I've been exploring the interrelationship between cart usage and golf course design long before Chris and DR showed up on the scene.

- Josh Tarble wrote: "To me, the question is; would you rather have an average to above-average hole that returns to the teeing area of #1 or would you rather have an exceptional hole that requires a 500 yard walk once you're done?  I know my answer."   Josh you hit on a key question, but I think my answer might be different than yours. While i can't speak to DR specifically, I generally do not think it is ever as easy as just comparing the quality of the individual holes.

[Jim Colton]

Maybe it would've fared better in this boxing match.

Jim:

We are talking about 2 of the best golf courses in the US.  When you get to that level, any "ranking" is solely a matter of preference.  As I indicated in my last post, I find it difficult to rank one ahead of the other.    

 Michael, that comment was tongue in cheek, as I wasn't really sweating the results of the match. As you said, both are excellent golf courses and it's natural for there to be some who prefer one over the other. As often occurs with the more courses I play, I came away from two days at Dismal River appreciating Ballyneal even more. CJ said somewhere that Ballyneal lacked "thematic variety", which I guess he was saying in direct comparison to DR Red, as most golf courses do not traverse vastly different ecosystems. I  happen to think the cohesive, unithemed routing at Ballyneal is a strength, even with the returning nines and 18th that ends up near the house. I said my head hurt because I couldn't imagine changing one hole out there.

I'm sure DR members feel equally strongly about their new and old courses, which is a good thing. There is enough room for both clubs to thrive, I think. And if this gets more people out to the area to find out for themselves, then all the better for all parties involved. The Ren Cup was obviously a nice event for Dismal River, but a lot of people visited both courses on the same trip. We played one team in the second round who had just come from Ballyneal, and both guys joined Ballyneal a couple days later.

[Chris Johnston]

Maybe it would've fared better in this boxing match.

Jim:

We are talking about 2 of the best golf courses in the US.  When you get to that level, any "ranking" is solely a matter of preference.  As I indicated in my last post, I find it difficult to rank one ahead of the other.    

 Michael, that comment was tongue in cheek, as I wasn't really sweating the results of the match. As you said, both are excellent golf courses and it's natural for there to be some who prefer one over the other. As often occurs with the more courses I play, I came away from two days at Dismal River appreciating Ballyneal even more. CJ said somewhere that Ballyneal lacked "thematic variety", which I guess he was saying in direct comparison to DR Red, as most golf courses do not traverse vastly different ecosystems. I  happen to think the cohesive, unithemed routing at Ballyneal is a strength, even with the returning nines and 18th that ends up near the house. I said my head hurt because I couldn't imagine changing one hole out there.

I'm sure DR members feel equally strongly about their new and old courses, which is a good thing. There is enough room for both clubs to thrive, I think. And if this gets more people out to the area to find out for themselves, then all the better for all parties involved. The Ren Cup was obviously a nice event for Dismal River, but a lot of people visited both courses on the same trip. We played one team in the second round who had just come from Ballyneal, and both guys joined Ballyneal a couple days later.

Jim

Congrats on the two new members!

I did notice that you chose not to participate in the thread...why not?  You certainly have played both and have your own perspective you could have shared.

Also, you misquoted what I said in a very positive earlier post about Ballyneal...I never said it lacked thematic variety, only that it had less thematic variety than some of Tom's other work.  It's ok to disagree with my opinion.   I wasn't comparing Ballyneal to DR Red, my positive comments were in regards to the three courses I placed ahead of Ballyneal.  Here it is again:

"4. Ballyneal.  Instant classic.  Unique site but probably poor initial turf decisions, fits the land seamlesly but less thematic variety, epic greens with inhibiting grass mix decisions, "bumps" in every fairway, Easy to walk a plus, but limiting to many in a hot place, very pleasantly understated.  Unique and very enjoyable.  Great comeback story!"

Not sure how the above is anything but positive, but thinner skins may have taken offense.

I agree with you that both courses are quite good, and that we all may prefer one over another.  I couldn't be more happy for (you or anyone) who prefers Ballyneal over anything...that's pretty cool stuff in my book.  

Me?  I couldn't bring my Dad, or several friends, to Ballyneal for the heat and forced walking.  That isn't bad, but it is bad for me, my dad, and my friends.  They aren't lazy at all, but would need a cart to enjoy several rounds over several days.  I guess it's their loss.

I'm also glad you shared the news here about the change to bentgrass - FWIW, again, I think it was a very wise move.  For the "I said my head hurt because I couldn't imagine changing one hole out there."...um...they just changed all 18...making a great place better.

[DMoriarty]

"4. Ballyneal.  . . . poor initial turf decisions . . . less thematic variety . . . inhibiting grass mix decisions . . . [walking policy] limiting to many in a hot place . . .."

I agree with Chris Johnston.  His comment about Ballyneal was, as he aptly put it, "anything but positive."

[Alex Miller]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/but

[Jerry Kluger]

Chris: What is "thematic variety?"  Where is there good thematic variety?  Why is it important?

[Jim Colton]

Maybe it would've fared better in this boxing match.

Jim:

We are talking about 2 of the best golf courses in the US.  When you get to that level, any "ranking" is solely a matter of preference.  As I indicated in my last post, I find it difficult to rank one ahead of the other.    

 Michael, that comment was tongue in cheek, as I wasn't really sweating the results of the match. As you said, both are excellent golf courses and it's natural for there to be some who prefer one over the other. As often occurs with the more courses I play, I came away from two days at Dismal River appreciating Ballyneal even more. CJ said somewhere that Ballyneal lacked "thematic variety", which I guess he was saying in direct comparison to DR Red, as most golf courses do not traverse vastly different ecosystems. I  happen to think the cohesive, unithemed routing at Ballyneal is a strength, even with the returning nines and 18th that ends up near the house. I said my head hurt because I couldn't imagine changing one hole out there.

I'm sure DR members feel equally strongly about their new and old courses, which is a good thing. There is enough room for both clubs to thrive, I think. And if this gets more people out to the area to find out for themselves, then all the better for all parties involved. The Ren Cup was obviously a nice event for Dismal River, but a lot of people visited both courses on the same trip. We played one team in the second round who had just come from Ballyneal, and both guys joined Ballyneal a couple days later.

Jim

Congrats on the two new members!

I did notice that you chose not to participate in the thread...why not?  You certainly have played both and have your own perspective you could have shared.

Also, you misquoted what I said in a very positive earlier post about Ballyneal...I never said it lacked thematic variety, only that it had less thematic variety than some of Tom's other work.  It's ok to disagree with my opinion.   I wasn't comparing Ballyneal to DR Red, my positive comments were in regards to the three courses I placed ahead of Ballyneal.  Here it is again:

"4. Ballyneal.  Instant classic.  Unique site but probably poor initial turf decisions, fits the land seamlesly but less thematic variety, epic greens with inhibiting grass mix decisions, "bumps" in every fairway, Easy to walk a plus, but limiting to many in a hot place, very pleasantly understated.  Unique and very enjoyable.  Great comeback story!"

Not sure how the above is anything but positive, but thinner skins may have taken offense.

I agree with you that both courses are quite good, and that we all may prefer one over another.  I couldn't be more happy for (you or anyone) who prefers Ballyneal over anything...that's pretty cool stuff in my book.  

Me?  I couldn't bring my Dad, or several friends, to Ballyneal for the heat and forced walking.  That isn't bad, but it is bad for me, my dad, and my friends.  They aren't lazy at all, but would need a cart to enjoy several rounds over several days.  I guess it's their loss.

I'm also glad you shared the news here about the change to bentgrass - FWIW, again, I think it was a very wise move.  For the "I said my head hurt because I couldn't imagine changing one hole out there."...um...they just changed all 18...making a great place better.

Chris,

 John did a wonderful job representing Team Ballyneal, and as I said early on, I was a proponent of letting the JK's duke it out. I also don't tend to think about hole by hole match-ups when discussing golf courses, so I'm not sure I would've added much value. I sent Tom my thoughts after the Ren Cup and right after this thread started, and offered words of encouragement to John along the way. He did an admirable job.

  Sorry about misquoting "lacked" vs "less", but I think the point is the same. One man's quibble is another man's strength. It's all good.

  As for the 18 greens, I think it was pretty clear that I was talking about the routing of the golf holes and the starting and ending points. I do think it's a worthy topic of further discussion. There's a lot of great land around Ballyneal...in fact I just scouted out some this morning! I couldn't help but wonder if the golf course could be even better without the returning nines and finish where you started. I didn't get very far before realizing that you'd end up scrapping some world class golf holes in the process.

  For the record, there are, like at Bandon, a few carts and cart paths at Ballyneal, so you could bring your Dad out there if you want. Most there choose not to use them. I saw two golf carts all year.
 
  

[Sven Nilsen]

Jerry:

One could suggest that Dismal Red and Ballyneal together offer thematic variety (or as I believe the term is more commonly used, "thematic variation").  But here we are discussing each course individually, and not as part of the architect's portfolio.

I believe that what Chris was suggesting is that the holes at Ballyneal all have the same feel, or look.  I can't imagine that he meant that the holes all played the same way, as that runs contrary to my experiences and the evidence laid out by all of the judges in this thread.  On the "more thematic variety" side of the equation, one could use High Pointe as a prime example of a course that presented holes in several different environs, with different looks and different feels.

I, for one, would like to know how others value this concept in analyzing the merits of a golf course.  It doesn't seem to me that links golf as an oeuvre represents this idea of "thematic variety," and as such I don't know if a course conceived to transpose the ideals of links golf onto a similar but distant terrain should be held to a standard that incorporates this criteria.

I guess as long as the substance is solid, it really doesn't matter to me if the surrounds are consistent or varied.

All the best,

Sven

[Chris Johnston]

David -

First, were any of my opinions incorrect? If so, why don't you tell me where you disagree.  

Second,  Instant Classic is pretty dadgum positive, as was much of what I said.  I did feel the need to explain why I placed it fourth, an it figures you'd jump the post.

Jerry - Thematic Variety is variety in topography, surrounds, and at times look.  To me, Ballyneal has a very consistent theme.  I don't think anyone would argue this to be false (except Morality), and it doesn't make Ballyneal bad at all.  Simply, the first three on my list had more variety, and that is a positive in my book.  Some guys may prize thematic consistency over variety.  I don't.

Sven - I stand corrected, thematic "variation" is probably the better term.  Thanks for the tip.  

[Mac Plumart]

CJ...I agree with you on the thematic variation concept.

Jim...Ballyneal is a great course. You should be proud to be a member there.

[Jim Colton]

CJ...I agree with you on the thematic variation concept.

Jim...Ballyneal is a great course. You should be proud to be a member there.

Thanks Mac. I just spent my 40th birthday there with my family and my second family and their families. There really was no other place in the world I rather be.

[Peter Pallotta]

David - your post #402 has much food for thought/discussion. For now, I'll just play devil's advocate re your point that cart-ball courses can be justified in the same way, i.e.  based on the best possible routing.

I've always harboured a suspsicion that the cart ball courses I've played are not cart ball courses because the architects needed to make them so in order to find/connect the best 18 holes on difficult sites. Instead, I suspect they are cart ball courses because the owners/clients so eagerly wanted the extra revenue that cart ball courses generate that they happily and intentionally purchased the most difficult (and least expensive) site they could find so as to almost ensure this eventual cart-ball windfall; and then further ensured their ill-gotten profits by choosing cart-ball-worthy architects who'd proven in the past that they could find the most torturous and unnatural and swing-back- aroundable routings and thereby turn a 6 mile walking round into a 15-mile-drive-around-hairpins-and-over-bridges-and-under-overpasses-kind-of-routing that was so clearly un-walkable it would have every cart-bound golfer at the end of their rounds falling on their knees in thanks and praise that they'd been allowed to pay the extra $30 dollars for the privilege of playing the course while avoiding a 15 mile walk.  (Of course, both owner and seasoned architect would agree on the wording for the yardage book and promotional material, which would read something like: "No expense was spared to ensure that this majestic property yielded the best 18 hole championship golf course possible, one that with 5 sets of tees, presents a truly scenic and enjoyable challenge to all levels of golfers"). In short, my suspicion is that the analogy/justification is not appropriate -- if for no other reason than that at courses like SandHills and DR, the powerful profit motive (as described above) is lacking.

Peter

[DMoriarty]

Chris Johnston,  My opinion not only differs with yours regarding Ballyneal, I also can't figure why you would continue to take transparent, passive-aggressive shots at a competitor in a publicly accessible forum.  Seems low-class to me.
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Peter, I'll not touch the for-profit issue (or lack thereof) regarding the clubs you mention, but I will say that I don't know where you got the idea that private clubs lack a "profit motive."  

As for the rest, I try to take designers at their word when it is at all feasible, and cart ball designers claim they are departing from the walking golf convention in order to incorporate the best possible golf holes into the golf course (which is in turn supposed to drive sales.)  For example, here is Jim Engh explaining his approach to designing courses on moderately land where perhaps only 50% of the golfers would be seen as potential walkers:

When dealing with moderate land upon which it might be "possible" to create a walking course, I have the following decision; should I create a course that is very much less exciting/fun but is potentially walkable for 50% of the players? Or should I decide that this will be a mostly cart course and create a much more powerful golfing experience and sales engine for their project? In my mind that is an easy decision. Do the better course.

But perhaps we are getting off track.  I am not necessarily asking about a cart ball courses like Engh would design. Rather, I am talking about whether we should disregard the convention of "closing the loop" and returning to the starting point. This could apply to walkable courses (like DR) or cartball courses (Obviously for walkers they'd either need a lift to and fro.)   It is worth noting, though, that the nature of the justification is the same.  It is a balance between adhering to these golf conventions based on a needs of a walking golfer, on the one hand, and the desire to supposedly find the best golf holes w/o regard to the conventions, on the other.  

[Ari Techner]

Very entertaining thread that I have enjoyed reading.  Both Dismal Red and Ballyneal are very special golf courses that I have very much enjoyed playing.

I wanted to throw my 2 cents in on the discussion about carts and walking and the course starting and ending at the clubhouse or not.  I am personally in the camp of give me the best 18 holes you can with walking as a priority but I don't really care how I get to the first tee or back from 18 green. (within reason)  This did not detract from my experience at Dismal in the slightest.  However, I do not think it is fair to lump it in the same category as Sand Hills when it comes to being away from the clubhouse and taking a cart to and from when you want to play.  To me, Ben's Porch acts like the clubhouse for the golf course and the main clubhouse is more like the clubhouse for the lodging and restaurant.  When I have been lucky enough to go out to Sand Hills we have pretty much spent the whole day up at the golf course and Ben's Porch and used Ben's Porch the way you would use any clubhouse in between rounds.  You eat lunch at the porch, relax in between rounds, have a few drinks, use the bathroom, hang out and chat about previous or coming rounds, settle up bets, setup pairings etc etc.  For the most part you do not go back to the main clubhouse area from the golf course during the day unless you are done with golf or need something from your room.  Sand Hills has 2 distinct different "areas" and to me it greatly enhances the experience.  At Dismal you have to go back and forth to the main clubhouse between rounds, to have lunch etc which gives you the feel of leaving the golf course and going somewhere else.  I am not sure if there is a plan to build something closer to the Red course like Jack's Shack or not but that could change this in the future but for now I think DR and SH give distinctly different experiences in this regard.

[Jerry Kluger]

Sven: I guess I understand what you are saying but is that really a valid consideration in evaluating golf course architecture, and if so, how could you ever give a high mark to The Old Course or Sand Hills or any other course which is on a consistent piece of property.  It could certainly make a course interesting but I really don't see how it could be considered better because of that.  

[Chris Johnston]

Ari - agree wrt Ben's Porch.  We are planning to add something between 1 green and 18, overlooking 18 fairway.  With two courses today and all day to play, the clubhouse is best to serve players from both.  Back in the day, we would sometimes go back to the cabins for a quick nap.

David - it isn't important to me that you don't feel it proper for me to share my thoughts on this site - in conjuction with the topics of various threads.  I'm afraid your comments epitomize low class - you don't debate, you just trash other's opinions, especially mine.  I've taken no shots at anyone, yet you have in spades.  I get it - you love Ballyneal and have a thin skin when it come to any alternate viewpoint, even those who are supportive.  It's funny, I thinks it's great too.  Ballyneal isn't a competitor of ours - we compete with everything else.

Jim - Happy 40th!

[Ari Techner]

Ari - agree wrt Ben's Porch.  We are planning to add something between 1 green and 18, overlooking 18 fairway.  With two courses today and all day to play, the clubhouse is best to serve players from both.  Back in the day, we would sometimes go back to the cabins for a quick nap.

Chris,

I would think with 2 courses rather than 1 it is much different anyways as I would expect that most of the time if you are playing more than 18 holes you would likely play both courses.  For Dismal, the main clubhouse makes sense as a main gathering place in between rounds etc as it is in between the 2 courses and a starting point for both.  With only 1 course I think the logistics of this are completely different.    

Is Milo still the youngest player ever to tackle the Red?  Were both looking forward to seeing the course as it matures.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Jerry:

I think we're on the same page.

Sven

[Mac Plumart]

CJ...I agree with you on the thematic variation concept.

Jim...Ballyneal is a great course. You should be proud to be a member there.

Thanks Mac. I just spent my 40th birthday there with my family and my second family and their families. There really was no other place in the world I rather be.

That's the home run, Jim.  Being a member at a club that you love.  Congrats!

[Chris Johnston]

Ari - agree wrt Ben's Porch.  We are planning to add something between 1 green and 18, overlooking 18 fairway.  With two courses today and all day to play, the clubhouse is best to serve players from both.  Back in the day, we would sometimes go back to the cabins for a quick nap.

Chris,

I would think with 2 courses rather than 1 it is much different anyways as I would expect that most of the time if you are playing more than 18 holes you would likely play both courses.  For Dismal, the main clubhouse makes sense as a main gathering place in between rounds etc as it is in between the 2 courses and a starting point for both.  With only 1 course I think the logistics of this are completely different.    

Is Milo still the youngest player ever to tackle the Red?  Were both looking forward to seeing the course as it matures.  

Ari

Milo has the little kid's course record.  Can't wait to see you guys again.  It was fun!

[Scott Szabo]

CJ...I agree with you on the thematic variation concept.

Jim...Ballyneal is a great course. You should be proud to be a member there.

Thanks Mac. I just spent my 40th birthday there with my family and my second family and their families. There really was no other place in the world I rather be.

So we're you able to dunk a ball before turning 40?  Seems to me there might have been some type of gentleman's wager regarding this in the recent past.

[DMoriarty]

xxxooo

[John Kirk]

As far as the walkability once you strike your first drive, I put the Red right up there with Ballyneal and Prairie Dunes as the best walks in golf that I have experienced... and that was before the bridge was built.

Yeah, but BUrban...what do you know?  You've only walked that course 100 holes at a time! 

 

Hey Mac- I know how some guys on this site like to disparage others for inaccurate or untrue statements so I want to help you out before that happens. It was 120!

Amazing, considering that Brandon had to make that 45 minute bus ride back to the first tee six times.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Ballyneal isn't a competitor of ours - we compete with everything else.

Chris, if you don't mind, I would love for you to expound on this a little further...

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