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John Kirk

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #200 on: October 06, 2013, 11:41:24 AM »
I stole Cliff Walston's picture of the tee shot at Dismal River's 10th hole:



Larry Lambrecht's picture of the green site shows another Dismal River green seemingly laid on top of a gentle flat area.  I don't think I've ever seen a course with such gentle transitions between the green and the surrounding turf.



After a mediocre drive at Dismal River 10th hole, I had to guess a good distance to lay up, and selected a 6-iron, which felt right, but when I got to the ball, it had been stopped by a giant globe buried underneath the sand.  From a severe uphill stance, I chipped an 8-iron from 135-140 yards to about 18 feet but missed the putt.  I also remember my wife's putt from the middle of the green down to the front right hole location was very fast.

Cliff's picture shows how well that small sand ridge hides the best driving line.  Dismal River has a few of those, while Ballyneal's topography does not allow that type of subtlety.

From the most commonly used tee box, about 430 yards, the tee shot at Ballyneal's 10th hole feels a little riskier, maybe because one is tempted to play for the right side of the fairway, either with a fade or an accurate 220 yard carry over the right bunker.  Most drives end up in the giant bowl in the left side, known as the Bowl Of Mediocrity, which leaves a blind shot over a bunker to a large green with some difficult features.

For personal reasons, I like the hole from the longer tees, 475 or even 509 yards, where a good drive ends up even or short with the right bunker, and I'm left with 210-250 yards in.  You can see the target, and I find this an enticing shot.  I will say this is a hole where a lot of balls find the native, and some are lost.

Ballyneal's 10th Hole, photo courtesy of L.C. Lambrecht:



Now that I have a wide range of Dismal River photos to look at, I've redoubled my efforts, spending significant time thinking about the next day's holes, reviewing photos, and thinking about what I might say.  I've declared Ballyneal the winner and Dismal River a loser on all par 5 holes so far, so I'm expecting some resistance here as I give the hole to Ballyneal.  I think our 10th hole is better looking, with more unique playing characteristics.  Plus, we have the Bowl Of Mediocrity on our side.

Ballyneal 10-9.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 11:54:14 AM by John Kirk »

Eric Smith

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #201 on: October 06, 2013, 01:15:48 PM »
John,

Were you really given some flack over your hole #4 comparison?

John Kirk

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #202 on: October 06, 2013, 01:26:36 PM »
Hi Eric.  Not exactly, but Tom D. did point out my 4th hole analysis as an example why rater opinions should not be trusted based on one round.  Notice that I removed the remark you refer to, and replaced it with a more accurate sentiment.  I just want to give my best effort on this.  Every morning I wake up and spend an hour or so putting something down.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #203 on: October 07, 2013, 01:27:56 PM »
Any chance we'll get a Dismal Red vs. Dismal WHite match at some point?

John Kirk

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #204 on: October 07, 2013, 01:51:38 PM »
Though I am highly qualified to discuss the nuances of the Dismal River (Red) course, I cannot participate in a White vs. Red examination.

As Foghorn Leghorn says, "That's a joke, son."  The Dismal River folks can battle that one out.

Kicking back, waiting for the JK to resume commentary.

Jim Jackson

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #205 on: October 07, 2013, 10:24:10 PM »
This thread is a perfect example of what's great about this site.  Thanks for all who are adding their perspective.  It's too good a thread to die on the vine!

John Kirk

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #206 on: October 08, 2013, 10:49:20 AM »
Good morning John.  I'm going to carry on with the 11th hole, as I have time set aside for adding to the thread.  Hope everything is OK, and that you are just traveling home and/or recuperating from your visit to Dismal River.

If I remember correctly, the 11th hole at Dismal River is about 172 yards long from the back tee.  The tee shot from the back tee is nearly blind, over a sand ridge that's tall enough to obscure the green, but you can still see the flag.  The middle and short tee boxes are well to the right, from which you can see about half of the green.  It's a beautiful hole, very enticing, especially from the back tee box.

Front view:


Right side view:


Back to my playing experience.  The player can get some idea of front, middle or back pin position as he/she walks by the middle tee to the back tee.  With this said, I could not tell where the pin was, or how big the green was, by taking this walk the first time.  I selected a 6-iron, and more or less knowing that Tom would build a partially blind par 3 with plenty of grass surrounds, aimed right at the flag and tugged it a few yards left.  Walking up to the green, I was very surprised to see how severe it is, the day's middle left pin on a narrow shelf, with a big drop to the right side.  My wife's tee shot looked very good from the tee, just a yard or two right, but ended up 12-15 yards right.  I was left with a tricky up, then down from the short grass left of the green, and failed to convert.


The 11th hole at Ballyneal plays up to 200 yards long.  The back tee happens to give the best line of approach, generally in line with the large green, which slopes consistently from back to front.  Here is a photo of the hole from near the back tee:



This is the rare case of a deceptive green at Ballyneal.  Uphill putts toward the back of the green play slower than they look, and I remind myself to hit them hard.  The green plays quite narrow, perched on a dune, with falloffs on the front, middle right and middle left sides.  You see a fair number of balls pulled into the native left of the green here.  The two pot bunkers on the right side are very difficult hazards, especially the second one, where the player often has to manufacture an unnaturally steep takeaway just to swing.  Although the green is fairly large, only about 75% of it can be used to place the hole.  Overall, the 11th hole at Ballyneal is a tough golf hole.

Wow, now I have to decide?

In recent polls, the 11th hole at Ballyneal receives less love than I think it deserves.  I have always cited it as a favorite hole on the course, but few feel that way.  Once again, I probably enjoy the challenge of hitting a long iron shot properly more than most players.  Ballyneal's 11th hole does not yield an abundance of interesting chip shots, unless you miss long and right.  Without any data to back it up, Dismal River's 11th hole looks better suited to the pleasing chip and run, or long, satisfying putt.

One of the corrolaries to the time theory of watching shots roll out is for blind shots, the anticipation of walking up and finding out where your ball finished.  I experienced that on Dismal River's 11th, but was disappointed with the result.  Although it is a short iron from the shorter tees, the 11th hole at Dismal River is all carry to the green complex.  I imagine some balls are lost here in a strong S-SE breeze.

Ballyneal's 11th hole has a wide variety of teeing areas.  The hole plays from 130-175 yards on a line just right of the photo.  It also has a hidden tee box way left, about 130-140 yards away, and can also be played from in back of the 10th green, another 135-145 yard shot from way right.  That's a lot of flexibility.

This is a very hard call for me.  I like Ballyneal's 11th hole better.  I am anxious to hear some thoughts from other people, especially anecdotes from Dismal River.  I'll be back in a few hours.

Draw.  10-10.


Michael George

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #207 on: October 08, 2013, 11:08:26 AM »
Don't have a lot of time, but wanted to get caught up.

#9 - one of the best holes at Dismal.  Great use of angles off the tee to decide the line to take, followed by a lot of options on second shot to a infinity like green.  #9 at Ballyneal is solid (I don't have a lot of criticisms), but it does not compare to #9 at Dismal.  Dismal 10-8.  Dismal up 2 points on the card.

#10 - very good holes at both courses.  For me to rank one ahead of the other would be very difficult.  10-10 Tie.  Dismal up 2 points on the card.

#11 - I agree with John Kirk on #11 at Ballyneal, especially from the back tees.  I simply loved the hole.  You can play safe to the right or get aggressive to the pin.  For those that are going to Ballyneal soon, go play #11 from the tips - really a fun hole from up there.  Ballyneal 10-9.  Dismal up 1 point on the card.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 11:30:20 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Jimmy Muratt

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #208 on: October 08, 2013, 11:17:28 AM »
This is a good comparison as two par 3's go toe-to-toe.  Two demanding par 3's, they present their challenge a bit differently.  

John gives an excellent description of Ballyneal's 11th.  I really like this hole.  The green sits up on a plateau on top of a dune.  It appears that short miss is the bad spot to miss, and it certainly isn't good.  But, missing left is even worse as there is a significant drop off.  It's the kind of hole where you just have to step up and hit a good long iron shot.  

The 11th at Dismal is much more visually deceptive.  As seen in John's photo, it appears from the back tee that there is no room to miss left.  Naturally, you tend to bail out a bit to the right and that leaves a very difficult up and down or long putt as the green slopes left to right and the bunkers to the right seem to collect a lot of golf balls.  Where the pin is located in John's photo, the ideal shot would be about 10 feet left of the pin.  The contour would then bring the ball down to the hole.  There is also probably 10-15 yards of fringe area left of that, so you have much more room to miss left than appears.  This hole always seems to play into the wind as well, most rounds I've played a 190-195 club and have ended up pin high.  

This is a tough choice for me as I really like both holes.  I give the edge to Dismal as I really like the visual deception off of the tee.  Dismal takes this one for me..... 10-9

Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8
10.  Push 10-10
11.  Dismal  10-9

Cliff Walston

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #209 on: October 08, 2013, 11:49:31 AM »
I have really enjoyed this thread.  Having not played Ballyneal, I feel like I am learning a lot.  One quick question for the Holyoke crowd, what is the season there?

Adam Clayman

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #210 on: October 08, 2013, 12:29:22 PM »
Saturday, in the gale, Jaka was the only one not on the surface of 11. He was short, on the walking path. As golf would have it, he made the only par.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Eric Smith

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #211 on: October 08, 2013, 12:29:45 PM »
While we await John's thoughts on the 11's, I thought I'd post a couple shots of him playing the two holes.

@ Ballyneal:


@ Dismal (Grow-in, October 2011):




And a couple more recent photos of Red 11:





Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #212 on: October 08, 2013, 12:39:20 PM »
I have really enjoyed this thread.  Having not played Ballyneal, I feel like I am learning a lot.  One quick question for the Holyoke crowd, what is the season there?

Cliff,

 The official season at BN is mid-May to Oct 20th this year. Members can play the course during most of the offseason if the weather is decent.

Stephen Davis

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #213 on: October 08, 2013, 03:13:35 PM »
I too need to get caught up.

9: DR 10-8. The ninth at Ballyneal is a really nice hole and I still haven't decided the best way to play it. The drive is really deceptive due to the sharp rise in the fairway, but that same rise makes it one of the only tough walking spots on the course. The 9th at DR is a truly great hole, one of my favorite on the course. It begs you to take off as much as you dare, and if you hit the shot, then the reward is really great. Love the setting as well on this hole.

10: BN 10-9. Two really good holes here, but I think BN comes out on top here. It is a beefy par 4 that either requires you to flirt with the bunker on the right or end up in the Bowl of Mediocrity. The drive on this hole is one that I look forward to the entire round, and when it comes my hands get a bit sweaty. BN wins in a close one.

11: Draw 10-10. I really like both of these par 3s. The 11th at DR is a strong par 3 and I really like it when the pin is set on the right side. Very fun taking on those two bunkers. However, the 11th at BN is a really neat hole, especially when played from the back, like others have said. Left is dead, right is dead, short is dead, but the green is tricky so a par is not guaranteed even if you hit the green. In the end, I feel like these two have a lot in common. So it is a draw.

Here's my tally so far.

1: DR 10-9
2: Push 10-10
3: BN 10-9
4: DR 10-9
5: BN 10-9
6: DR 10-8
7: BN 10-8
8: BN 10-9
9: DR 10-8
10: BN 10-9
11: Push 10-10
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 07:09:33 PM by Stephen Davis »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #214 on: October 08, 2013, 10:43:53 PM »

Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 7...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 8...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 9...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Dismal Doak 10-8

The green on Dismal Doak 11 is incredible.  Move the pin and you get a different experience.  And what great experiences they are.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #215 on: October 08, 2013, 10:53:29 PM »
Pretty cool how they mowed the universal symbol for "play" in the front slope on Red 11...maybe it's part of the "While we're young" initiative.......
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2013, 11:16:51 PM »
Hey Eric, thanks for posting those pictures of JK -- I never noticed before, but from the back he looks just like Andy Bean, late in his career.

Peter

Excuse the interruption of a very interesting thread. Please consider me the pretty girl in the old Vegas days, holding up the card that told us what round was coming up.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #217 on: October 09, 2013, 05:31:37 PM »
Removed post and will post later.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 05:45:55 PM by Stephen Davis »

John Kirk

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #218 on: October 09, 2013, 05:37:34 PM »
Hi Stephen,

I'm kind of waiting for John Kavanaugh to return.  I imagine everybody else is sort of holding off as well.

Stephen Davis

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #219 on: October 09, 2013, 05:44:48 PM »
Hi Stephen,

I'm kind of waiting for John Kavanaugh to return.  I imagine everybody else is sort of holding off as well.
Makes sense. I was wondering why so little chatter today. I will pull my post and put it up when we are ready to start discussing the 12th holes.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #220 on: October 09, 2013, 07:23:32 PM »
I've been updating my match over on my MySpace page. I'll transfer the results tomorrow. Sorry for the confusion.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #221 on: October 09, 2013, 10:07:46 PM »
I've been updating my match over on my MySpace page. I'll transfer the results tomorrow. Sorry for the confusion.

MySpace?   There's still MySpace?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #222 on: October 09, 2013, 10:16:51 PM »
You guys posting scorecards - have you watched much boxing?   Generally a 10-8 score results from a round where one of the fighters is knocked down at least once, there is blood and sweat and maybe a tooth flying, all from the loser of the round.  10-8 is a walkover.  

I haven't played Dismal Red but have played Ballyneal as well as a bunch of other Doaks.   I honestly think the holes at Ballyneal are individually so good that I don't see how the corresponding holes at Dismal could be so one sided in favor of the Red as to justify a 10-8 mauling.   I suspect this may be member-biased scoring, the kind that gets catcalls from the crowd when the scoring is announced post-fight.  

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #223 on: October 10, 2013, 12:20:23 AM »
You guys posting scorecards - have you watched much boxing?   Generally a 10-8 score results from a round where one of the fighters is knocked down at least once, there is blood and sweat and maybe a tooth flying, all from the loser of the round.  10-8 is a walkover.  

I haven't played Dismal Red but have played Ballyneal as well as a bunch of other Doaks.   I honestly think the holes at Ballyneal are individually so good that I don't see how the corresponding holes at Dismal could be so one sided in favor of the Red as to justify a 10-8 mauling.   I suspect this may be member-biased scoring, the kind that gets catcalls from the crowd when the scoring is announced post-fight.  

+1
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #224 on: October 10, 2013, 06:14:38 AM »
Bill,

I suspect you are right. With 2 BN members and 3 DR members among the judges with running scorecards, the 10-8 victories add up (thus far) to 7 for BN and 11 for DR. A fair distribution if you take into account the probability of member bias – which I really don’t see any harm in, btw. One of the courses is well established and revered by many, including you. The other is brand new and in time is likely to garner a few fans as well.

It’s also worth noting that most of these member judges have given multiple 10-8 victories to the other course.

This exercise has been entertaining to watch unfold. I wouldn't throw away $200 on it ;D, but fun nonetheless.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:18:16 AM by Eric Smith »