Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match

[Sean Leary]

As I said before, I played Dismal River all the way back, on a very pleasant morning with a gentle 5-10 mph S-SE wind.  I wanted to be able to see what I could and could not do.  The 7th hole plays well uphill, and 442 yards, and when I saw the giant right fairway bunker complex pinching the fairway down to 20 or so yards, I assume I must be able to carry it with a good drive.  My good high tee shots still carry about 235-240 yards.  I hit my best drive of the day, just what I wanted, and ended up in the middle of that big bunker, with about 210 yards left from an uphill lie.  From there I hit a few more shots of various types before moving to the next hole.  Another green with wide expanses of short grass around it.

Beautiful golf hole, similar to #6 at Ballyneal - very difficult, uphill, with a big undulating green.  Is this the largest green on the course?  What is the average size of the greens?

I only remember one other Doak hole where I wasn't strong enough to carry the fairway bunker, the 9th hole at Sebonack.  At Sebonack, the fairway bunkers are in generally more diabolical positions (from the second set of tees).  Long hitters can handle this hole, guys who carry it 260 yards or more.  I should play this hole at about 390-420 yards in the future, unless it is playing downwind, then I'd be tempted to try again.

The two 7th holes are similar in that they both have a large fairway bunker etched into a dune.  The fairway bunker at Ballyneal's 7th hole is extremely penal.  It must be a 1.25 stroke penalty on average, or something like that.  From the back tee, 352 yards, the carry over this bunker is about 240 yards, and not worth it for me.  The last thing I want is a 40-70 yard shot off tight turf and an uneven lie.  Generally the hole is played around 320-335 yards, so players have a legitimate shot at getting close or reaching the green with a long straight shot.

If the pin is in the back bowl, I usually try to leave a full wedge distance in.  About 85-100 yards is ideal.  But that's not easy to do; the big bunker and rolling fairway ground make the layup tee shot quite difficult for me.  My average score here is higher than the 9th and 14th holes.  That reflects on my driving ability; great drivers of the ball should tear this hole up.

The unique "E" green has a huge shoulder left of the green.  It makes a great backstop to hit parabolic putts from one portion of the green to the next, but play it too high and you can overcook it into a bunker.  I remember when Tom found the greensite in late 2004, which helped complete the routing puzzle for the front nine.  Those were heady days, man.

I have never played another hole where players make more positive noise as when they approach Ballyneal's 7th green.  Ooohs and ahhhhs and wows and laughter and joy.  It's simple, great fun.

Ballyneal battles back, 10-9.

JK,

Is 7 at Ballyneal better when played up a bit? I can't remember but when I played it with you a million years ago I think we played it back each time (due to our long hitting friend, probably)?

[John Kirk]

Hi Sean,

Yes.  You and I hit it about the same distance.  Attempting to drive the green (or near it) becomes a reasonable choice when playing the hole at 335 or less yards.  The back tee is 352 yards.  From 335 yards, if it's a little downwind, I'll try sometimes.  From 320-325 yards, I'll try it imore often.

I'm actually going to break out "our long hitting friend' for tomorrow's discussion.

[Jimmy Muratt]

As others have mentioned, the 7th holes discussed are very different.  I really like the 7th at Dismal, the bunker to the right off of the tee appears menacing but if you challenge it and carry it you are rewarded with a nice boost forward.  This leaves you in a much better position to attack this difficult green.  Bail out to the left off the tee and you face a much longer second shot from a worse angle.  It has one of my favorite greensites on the course with the steep run-offs and collection areas.

The 7th at Ballyneal is a world class short par 4.  I have played it best when hitting a 200 yard shot off the tee and leaving myself a full wedge in.  It would be hard to design a greensite that was more fun than this one.  The firm turf, mounds, banks, swales, etc. let your imagination run wild with short game options.  It's a memorable golf hole.

Ballyneal wins this round....10-9

Card:
1.  Dismal  10-9
2.  Dismal  10-9
3.  Push  10-10
4.  Ballyneal  10-9
5.  Ballyneal  10-9
6.  Dismal  10-9
7.  Ballyneal  10-9

[John Kavanaugh]

Round 8. I'll probably regret this but I have very fond memories of the eighth at Ballyneal and need to move on to something more interesting. Ballyneal wins this battle between par 5's. Verdict Ballyneal 10 - 8.

1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9
7.  BN   10 - 9
8.  BN   10 - 8

[Jimmy Muratt]

The 8th at Dismal is a much better hole from the back tee as it is set further to the right, creating a slight angle on the tee shot.  This brings the right fairway bunkers more into play.  A good tee shot will catch a downslope and I've been left with 150 in for my second shot when slightly downwind.  The bunkers short right of the green are in play if you're trying to run the ball in, they're approximately 40 yards short of the green.  The green runs away at the back and there is a very cool small bunker probably 20 yards behind this green that could catch over-aggressive approaches that run over the green.

The 8th at Ballyneal is a grand par 5.  Driver off the tee is a risky play as it brings the bunkers and left native area into play, the fairway narrows considerably left of the bunkers.  There is a well place small bunker in the potential lay-up zone, approximately 80 yards short of the green.  The greensite up in the dunes is one of my favorites.  

Ballyneal lands a solid shot to the chin and wins this round..... 10-8.

Card:
1.  Dismal  10-9
2.  Dismal  10-9
3.  Push  10-10
4.  Ballyneal  10-9
5.  Ballyneal  10-9
6.  Dismal  10-9
7.  Ballyneal  10-9
8.  Ballyneal  10-8

[Bruce Wellmon]

I too have fond memories of BN #8.

[Michael George]

The battle of the par 5s.  Ballyneal #8 is one of Doak's best par 5s - great interest and fun on the 2nd and 3rd shots, following by a great green.  

I thought Dismal Red #8 was underrated.  The approach to the green is quite interesting and the backdrop is quite beautiful.  That being said, it is not as good as Ballyneal #8.

8th hole - Ballyneal 10-9.

All tied up on my scorecard after 8 holes.

[Stephen Davis]

I just got back from Ballyneal and the conditions there were impeccable! Big kudos to Dave and the crew there! Here is my scoring so far

1: DR 10-9. I gave it to Dismal to start off with, but playing #1 at BN this weekend reminded me of what a great hole it is. That being said, I will stick to my original score. Dismal by a hair.
2: Push 10-10. I really like both of these holes and both are very strong second holes. There is nothing that sets one above the other in my mind.
3: BN 10-9. Both very good par 3s, but I think Ballyneal wins this one. One of the only front to back sloping greens on the course makes shot selection key, add in the kick plate on the left and it is a neat little par 3. I really like the 3rd at DR, but I am mystified by the bunker on the right. It is eye candy, but don't see any more purpose than that.
4: DR 10-9. I have all of the holes close so far, but this is the widest margin so far. I really enjoy the 4th at Ballyneal and the view is one of the best that I have ever seen. When I am with people playing there for the first time, this is the moment I look forward to seeing their faces. That being said and despite my performance on this hole in the 5th major playoffs, I think the 4th at DR is a really great hole and a really neat split fairway. DR take this one.
5: BN 10-9. I love the 5th at DR and it is indeed a brauny hole, but if the 5th at DR is a brauny hole, the 5th at BN is a brainy hole and you know what they say, brain wins over braun.
6: DR 10-8. This is my first blowout. Not that I don't think that the 6th at BN is a good hole, it is and it is one of my favorite tee shots, but the 6th at DR is just really, really great. So many options, depending on the wind. I hit everything from driver to 5 iron off the tee and I still don't know what is the best play.
7: BN 10-8. DR never stood a chance. This is my favorite approach shot that I have played in the world. I could spend an hour just hitting shots to this flag. What more is there to say.
8: BN 10-9. I think the 8th at DR is a really good hole, I might be sentimental because I jarred the pin and nearly double eagled that hole (Bruce is my witness ), but the 8th at BN is just so unique. Take dead aim at the huge blowout bunker, try and get close, but not too close and then what a second shot, especially if you are going for it, but even if you are laying up, it is usually blind. There is something special about walking around that bunker and finally getting a good view of the green. I love the green on 8 at BN.

[Bruce Wellmon]

8: BN 10-9. I think the 8th at DR is a really good hole, I might be sentimental because I jarred the pin and nearly double eagled that hole (Bruce is my witness ),

True. Helluva shot. And the cool thing was from the elevated fairway, you could see everything. 

[Simon Holt]

Agreed that Ballyneal gets the nod here but I disagree thats is a knockout.  I love the backdrop for a well hit drive on 8 at Dismal, watching the ball ride high and hang against the sand hills.  The approach shot is far more enticing than Ballyneal as its clearly much shorter and downhill.  I like how you can chase a long iron in from the left side; the green almost has a reverse Redan aspect to it when going for a back right pin.

Two of us played from the middle tee on 7 to a back right pin on 8 green.  285, severely downhill, very cool indeed.

With regard to Ballyneal's 8th -  excellent golf hole for all the reasons already mentioned.  The green is insane....in a good way.

If some people think this hole is a knockout for BN then the next hole is a quick counterattack for Dismal!

[Eric Smith]

Simon,

There is a photo on your Facebook of your friend at the tee on 8. One of the best I've seen. Could you post it here?

[Simon Holt]

I'll try and get it.  I'll email it and you can do the honours.  I've got a couple of great ones on 9.

[Bruce Wellmon]

If some people think this hole is a knockout for BN then the next hole is a quick counterattack for Dismal!

True dat. 

[Eric Smith]

I'll try and get it.  I'll email it and you can do the honours. 

Thanks!

[Simon Holt]

My pleasure!  It's such a cool spot.  Please post the two pics I sent you of the 9th (tee shot and us pitching) when we get to that hole.

[John Kirk]

Off to a slow start today.

I played the 8th hole at Dismal River from 554 yards, the back tee.  I pushed my tee shot into the native, but found it and hacked it out back into the fairway.  From about 225 yards, I guessed 4-iron, flushed it, and ended up 40 yards long and left.  I made a great pitch and putt to save par to end my day.  The approach plays very short, assuming calm conditions.  Perhaps two to three clubs short?

I was lucky to find my ball in the native.  The region received a lot of rain this summer.  Typically, the native is much less dense and healthy, and should be findable and playable a higher percentage.  If I were to nitpick, I'd argue that Ballyneal's native vegetation is less grass and more shrub, and balls are easier to find there.  Does that matter?  A little.

Dismal River's 8th green slopes away sharply to the right side.  Colorado Golf Club #16 and PGA West (Stadium) #9 come to mind.

Here's a lovely photo of the approach to the 8th hole:



Ballyneal's 8th hole is among the most photogenic on the course, with teeing areas between 390-515 yards.  Under calm conditions, it can be reached in two shots for a strong player.  The second shot is blind if the tee shot is right of center, thanks to the huge fairway bunker.  Second shots must be elevated over the tall feature.  The green is defended by a swale short right of the green; a straight/fade second shot over the 40 yard bunker is the money play.  

The green has fairly benign low front left and high back right areas, separated by a wild center with huge undulations, that yield putts unlike any other course I've played.  There are two pin positions that play a bit like the volcano hole on a miniature golf course, putting over a mound just to get into a tiny flat pocket between mounds and slopes.  A "Dolly Parton" green seems an appropriate name.

When the pin is back right, I have taken to laying up for a full third shot, as I believe your chances of having a short birdie putt from 90 yards are perhaps better than playing the third shot from the big swale.  A backstop long and right gathers balls into this area.

It's a birdie hole, and once again beloved for its unusual plays.  However, Ballyneal would not be great if every green yielded so many putts of this nature.  It is significantly more interesting than Dismal River's 8th hole, but I am not playing JK's boxing match scoring method.

Easy call.  Ballyneal wins.  (10-9)

[Jimmy Muratt]

The 9th holes:

The 9th at Ballyneal is a mid length uphill par 4.  I usually hit a 220 yard club off the tee and leave myself with a full wedge in.  It's a cool greensite set up in the dunes and is quite undulating.  A good hole but my least favorite on the course.

Dismal's 9th is a shortish par 4 that really gets your blood pumping.  It really is "bite off as much as you dare".  The green is driveable under the right conditions but it's one of the most difficult greens to hold on the course as it slopes away to the back.  During one recent round,three of us actually landed our tee balls on the front edge of the green but none of us held the green, the best score of the three was bogey.  If laying up, laying back to a full yardage is really the best play so you can spin it.  Another round I left myself 60 yards in, was downwind and nipped a half wedge well, it grabbed but kept trickling and dribbles over.  It's one of the most demanding short par 4's I've played.  You must execute the proper shots, then you are rewarded.

Dismal bounces back strongly here, Iove the 9th.  Dismal takes this round...10-8

Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8

[Eric Smith]

Here are Simon's photos of the 9th hole at Dismal River:

[John Kirk]

I'm up early to add my daily entry.

The 9th hole at Dismal River sits up high on that dune.  I'm guessing the wind is as strong there as any part of the golf course.  To me, it looks like the second shot is a real knee knocker when it's windy.

I have questions!

1.  Has anybody here come close to driving the green?
2.  How much short grass is behind the green?  I know from experience that missing left gets you into trouble quickly.
3.  Have you seen a lot of lost balls off the tee here?

The view off the tee is a bit unsettling the first time, without having a well defined aiming line to use.

There aren't many photos of Ballyneal's 9th hole.  Here's one taken from the tee in wintertime, with the grass dormant:  



It's a straightforward hole.  Try to drive the ball to the top of the rise, just short of the bunker.  The right third of the fairway leaves a blind second shot over the bunker; a bit extra time is required to determine a good line.  The walk from tee to landing zone might be the most demanding 200 yards of walking required.  That or the walk from the 18th green to the clubhouse.

In a recent unscientific poll, hole #9 came out last best among Ballyneal veterans.   During my three year hole-by-hole scoring analysis, #9 was the easiest hole on the course versus par.  It was also the first hole shaped and grassed to give prospective members an idea of what the course would look like.

As Jimmy M. says, an easy call.  Dismal River wins 10-9.  I have the courses even after nine holes.

Currently, the weather in Mullen, Nebraska is 39 degrees with NNW winds at 26 mph gusting to 35 mph.  And yet, I would John Kavanaugh
is out braving the harsh conditions this morning, as the weather is supposed to deteriorate from here.

[Eric Smith]

Good morning, John.

I'll answer your first question by saying that I haven't seen anyone drive that green BUT Simon Holt sent me that picture I posted above of his friend doing just that! Amazing, really. Isn't it 370ish?

As for question # 3 - last October the four of us all hit it in the native fighting a nasty wind. Learned a lot about the hole that day. The fairway extends far to the left for good reason.

[Don_Mahaffey]

My image below is missing a couple of tees, a medium length tee down to the left of the PG, and a forward tee across the road on the little piece of turf that sticks out at beginning of fwy.

I have seen a couple of drives reach the green. Clay Payne, the assistant super who has overseen much of the grow in on the Red, drove it about 30 yards over the green when the hole was playing downwind. In calm conditions, I've seen Clay drive it very close to the 285 drive location in the image.

I think this is a great hole.
1) It is incredibly beautiful and the curb appeal as you drive in reminds you that you have arrived at a special place.
2) Because of it's length, it will probably not be a stroke hole, yet the higher handicap player who uses his head can win the hole straight up with prudent play. Yes it is drivable, and yes being closer to the green MIGHT be an advantage, but this is a "thinking" players hole, and it will sucker punch you if you are either too timid, or too bold. This hole requires commitment.

John Kirk, there is 30 yards of turf over the green. Anyone who has played this hole knows some balls will end up over the green near the 10th tee, which is not a difficult area to recover from.

[Cliff Walston]

I really enjoy seeing Don's diagrams.  Very cool.  Yes its drivable for long hitters with the proper wind.  I actually think its the easiest hole to drive in the sense of being open in front.  Three guys tried it down wind in my group in September.  One was putting, one was chipping from 10 tee, and one was about 10 yards short right.  

Here are a few pics that didn't make the cut on my photo tour, but show the areas.

Trouble left of the green.



From the 10th tee over then green.

[Mac Plumart]

Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 7...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 8...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 9...Dismal Doak 10-8

[Stewart Abramson]

Ballyneal #9 from tee by tewiespix, on Flickr

[Jimmy Muratt]

On to the next tee, the 10th holes:

The 10th at Ballyneal is one of my favorite holes on the course.  It's a very long dogleg right par 4, 509 yards from the tips.  The long hitter will challenge the bunker complex on the inside of the dogleg on the right.  If you can carry these bunkers, you're rewarded with a great angle for your approach and a much shorter shot.  Play conservatively left of the bunkers off the tee and the ball will funnel further left for a long, blind uphill approach.  It's a terrific long par 4.

The 10th at Dismal is my favorite par 5 on the course.  There are large bunkers guarding the right side and native area left.  I usually aim at the native area left and can carry it with a good shot.  The ball catches a downslope and you can then have a go at the green.  If laying up, you must avoid staggered bunkers.  The greensite is one of the coolest on the course.  The green is bisected by a ridge, the front half slopes toward the front and the back slopes away.  Two putts are very difficult if in the wrong spot.

Two great holes, it's a push for me....10-10

Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8
10.  Push 10-10