Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match

[John Kavanaugh]

Round one of an eighteen round bout.  I give the nod to Red because of the pot bunker in the lay up area.  It shouldn't go without mentioning that this is one obvious glaring example of the green on the Red being far more exciting and diverse.  A rarity in this match.  Ballyneal takes one to the chin.  Judges card reads 10 - 8 Red.

Verdict:

Red wins round one 10 - 8.

Here is a quick primer on how to score a boxing match: http://neutralcorneronline.com/how-to-score-a-fight/

[Tom_Doak]

This should be good!  I'll stay on the sidelines, but I will sitemail my results in advance to the first neutral party who wants to hold onto them.

[Tom_Doak]

Interestingly, the first three short holes square off against each other:  3rd, 5th, and 11th holes.  Who knew?  And none of them are obvious wins for either side. 

[Brandon Urban]

Looking forward to this John. As the only two Doak courses I have played, I was getting ready to do a hole by hole match play between them.
I like the idea of a boxing score. It should make it more interesting.

For what it's worth, I would give the nod to Dismal Red on #1, as well. No real forced carry and little trouble to get in to off of the tee. It's a great handshake opener. I also love the pot bunker in the layup zone.

[Tom_Doak]

The pot bunker in the first fairway at Dismal was Brian Schneider's idea, by the way.  Originally we were going to have a bigger bunker on the left, but the main power line to the club runs right along that edge of the hole so we thought it best not to dig a bunker there.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know how to say this, but I think it would be better if members of either club refrained from opining too loudly on this thread.  In the rankings thread, there seemed to be a lot harder feelings between the two tribes than I imagined ... for anyone to believe that one course is terrific and the other not so good is pretty ridiculous, as they are such close cousins in many respects.  In fact, the only reason I welcome this thread is that I think it might demonstrate that to be the case, as long as people don't let their emotions overtake the design.

Of course, it's hard to enforce a rule like this when the guy who started the thread is a member of one of the courses, and is not exactly known as a mediator in these parts, but we'll just have to see how it goes.

I did finish my boxing match.  

[Andrew Buck]

This should be good!  I'll stay on the sidelines, but I will sitemail my results in advance to the first neutral party who wants to hold onto them.

Doing a great job so far  

Although, I think giving insight after a hole is finished into design concepts would be a great benefit to the readers of the thread, at least to me.

[Jason Thurman]

I had this idea after Mayweather Alvarez - comparing courses as an 18 round title fight. I look forward to following along. You know, when I get back on the grid in a few days that is...

[John Kirk]

Oh dear.  Very hard to abstain when the JK declares an ass kicking on the first hole, and I think he's wrong.  10-8 means a rather decisive victory.  That's when one guy beats the shit out of the other guy for three minutes.  In this case Dismal River has declared victory based on a pot bunker.

Ballyneal bobs, weaves, and responds with a fairway that runs diagonal to the tee shot, reminiscent of the first drive at Shinnecock Hills.  Our first hole also looks beautiful to me; I think it wins on aesthetics.

The Oregonian judge scores it 10-9 Ballyneal, causing the announcers to question his sanity.

I don't know if I can do this John.  I can't believe you started this thread.

[John Kirk]

.

[John Kavanaugh]

I see you have modified your criteria while I was deep in counter argument.

I haven't modified anything.  This is difficult. Judging boxing always is.

[John Kirk]

I've only played Dismal River once, which makes me inclined to ask a bunch of questions, but since we are playing boxing match, it is tempting to just go with my existing data base.  The first hole at Dismal was not one of my favorite holes on the course.  I screwed up the third shot and made a bad double bogey.  That third shot is tricky, a short iron off an uphill lie to an uphill target.  I would have liked to see the upper half of the green.

Ballyneal's first green is pretty tricky, and my lifetime scoring average there indicates it is a medium difficult opening hole.

[Chris Shaida]

Mr Kirk, can we beg you to reconsider. Or if you don't want to declare a score, at least provide comment.  The thread a while back where the two JKs discussed Riviera and Sand Hills was fantastic. One of you is a homer at one place, the other at the other.  Many of us may actually be able to see the competing 'tilts' as counter-balancing...

[John Kavanaugh]

First of all, history has proven that there is no such thing as a good boxing judge.  I know this will be difficult for some but in the spirit of the ugliness of the sweet science I would ask that no one edit their posts going forward.  I understand that this will reflect in less than perfect prose and a misspelling or two but hey, what's a bit of blood in a boxing match?

Each round will be limited to one day. I personally have not completed my scoring so spoiler alerts are not required and would wish everyone respect the same.  I am pulling for Red and will not let the fact that my partner and I played 4 - 7 two under to win the 5th Major play a role in my decision.

Also, given the history of clueless boxing judges, do not feel that you have to had played both or either courses to submit a score.

People are going to get hurt and it will be messy but at the end of the day we will shake hands and pretend that it's just a game.

Dismal is me and I am Dismal.  Don't bet against the Red.

[Michael George]

Fun to see the boxing match between John Kavanaugh and John Kirk.  I don't care if each of them has a 18-0 result for their course.  It will be fun to just see each of their arguments for their home course. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Fun to see the boxing match between John Kavanaugh and John Kirk.  I don't care if each of them has a 18-0 result for their course.  It will be fun to just see each of their arguments for their home course. 

I have to protect my credibility so it won't be 18 - 0.  I do see the first hole as a no brainer, punch drunk, get it?  With the combination of it being a par 5 and the contours of the green being similar the the second at Sand Hills the first at the Red plays as an homage to the greatness of the region.  I'm really torn on the second and am glad I have a day to think about it.

[John Kirk]

Like James Brown singing "Please, Please, Please" at the T.A.M.I. show, I'm back.  You've convinced me.  I do have plenty of time to participate these days.  Like JK I also don't want to look stupid, because I suspect that most holes will go to Ballyneal.

And thanks, it's very nice to be encouraged like this.

John, you make a great point about Dismal River's first hole being a par-5, which are generally more interesting holes.

I think the first hole at Ballyneal is prettier.  The second shot is short, but pulling the second shot left off an often uphill lie can be a big mistake. The front left bunker is very deep, maybe 10-12 feet.

Starting tomorrow, I'll take a bit more time before writing down a score.  I might have scored the first round a draw.

[Chris Johnston]

I don't know how to say this, but I think it would be better if members of either club refrained from opining too loudly on this thread.  In the rankings thread, there seemed to be a lot harder feelings between the two tribes than I imagined ... for anyone to believe that one course is terrific and the other not so good is pretty ridiculous, as they are such close cousins in many respects.  In fact, the only reason I welcome this thread is that I think it might demonstrate that to be the case, as long as people don't let their emotions overtake the design.

Of course, it's hard to enforce a rule like this when the guy who started the thread is a member of one of the courses, and is not exactly known as a mediator in these parts, but we'll just have to see how it goes.

I did finish my boxing match.  

Couldn't agree more with Tom, but it ain't gonna happen. Problem is, few non-members of either club have played both due to Dismal Reds age, even fewer have played both multiple times.  Plus, comparing a brand new course not even officially open yet to a well established course is "apples to diapers".  The thread will make for an amusing weekend and I heartily vote for amusement.  Heck, we may try to figure out a way to put the thread on the bigscreen in the theater room, akin to a pay per view boxing match with Ballynears invited.  Colton already has a chair there.  I would advise changing the name..."homerfest" sound good.

That said, to my pal John Kirk, the first hole is somehow inferior...because you screwed up the third shot on a par 5 from 120, or less yards?    C'mon Man!  The third shot is part of what I call the "soul of strategy" where Tom dared you (or, rather, seduced you) to hit to that uphill lie and into an every tightening neck.  Based upon your comments about the way you were playing that day, Dismal the Red doesn't stand a chance with this judge!    I know Tom Doak and seduction are seldom used here, and I deserve personal points for using it.  I confess, he is a very sexy man...kinda James Bondlike.

Let the match begin!  I too, will provide a bit of commentary but will remain behind the "veil" and abstain from scoring...I don't want to be accused of being one of the Cuban Olympic judges back in the day and I've enjoyed enough of Mr. Morality's pee on me leg, or maybe its just raining    <-----veiled comment/thinly veiled...couldn't resist, sorry Fellas.  

Kavanaugh is the perfect host, Irish, a very sharp needle, keeps the crew on task, full of blood and too stubborn to fall down, and he is the perfect Homer for team Dismal.  Should we designate the esteemed Mr. Kirk the Manager in the Ballyneal corner?  I'm pretty sure John could take John...in the John!  We could sell this puppy as the Tidy Bowl!  Apollo Creed vs Rocky Balboa?  Road Runner and Wile E Coyote (Super Genuis)?  Mission Impossible? Love Story? Jackass?

Have fun lads!  Keep it clean, no scratching or biting.  Or, at least keep us entertained in a Gangs of New York kind of way.

[Joe Bausch]

Verdict:

Red wins round one 10 - 8.

Dear John,

I have Ballyneal winning the first hole 10 - 7.

Sincerely,
C.J Ross
-------------------

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

In all fairness I will give you that the stroll from the cabin to the first tee at Ballyneal is very special.  But, I am going to attempt to limit this to architecture.  As to your prettier commentary I will say what I thought yesterday.  Ballyneal photographs much better than any other Doak course.  Even Brad Klein used a picture of the Nicklaus course for the cover of his most recent book.

[John Kirk]

I did not suggest that Dismal River's first hole was inferior because I botched the third shot.  I was openly admitting my own shortcomings - I screwed it up (I had about 82 yards to a front left pin, and hit a 56 degree wedge fat), I didn't see the back tier of the green, both possible reasons why I didn't like the hole as much as I should have.  As part of this thread, it looks like I get to teach a little something about humility, too.

I badly want to pick apart Dismal River for my own education, believe me.  And I want the dismal guys to tell me why it's so great, because I think my home course is great, too.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Like Chris, I hope you all have fun with this thread.

I've spent some time out there and especially at DR. This so called "feud" between Dismal River members and Ballyneal members doesn't really exist, at least in my experience. I only know of one member who openly speaks badly of the other course/club. All the rest, and especially including the staffs, seem to just enjoy their place and understand that a rising tide raises all boats. More visitors to either place will mean more visitors to both. Most get this, but some who sit on the sidelines seem to have some irrational urge to pick a side and blindly defend. When guys do that and get insulting, I hope most realize that they really don't speak for either club.

No matter how this match turns out, it will not change how members feel about their club/course.

edit: I hope Wyatt H and Jim C weigh in. While they are both B'neal members and I expect them to support their club, they also both attempting to play DR Red as much as possible, from different teeing grounds, during the Ren Cup and they seemed genuinely open minded about learning the course. Compare and contrast does seem to me to be a great way to break down architecture, but you have to have enough experience with both courses to justify your response. I fear DR Red is too new and not many have taken the time to play it multiple times.

  

[Chris Johnston]

JohnKirk,

It's a boxing match.  There is no crying in boxing - 2 point deduction.  

This really is Amimal House.  Kavanaugh is Bluto, Kirk is Otter.  Two guys in the same fraternity, each with a role, fun to be had.  Road trip anyone?  Dorfman's brother has a Lincoln.  Perfect.

I foreseee a tie, decided in sudden death by a dance off.  Even more pay per view opportunities!

Ohhh Boyy!

Dirt, bring some popcorn and I'll supply the Guinness.

[Jim Nugent]

Any possibility of some photos to illustrate your points, especially for those of us who haven't played either one?  

[Brandon Urban]

Ballyneal 1st Tee


Ballyneal #1 Approach


Ballyneal #1 Green


Dismal River 1st Tee


Dismal #1 Layup View


Dismal #1 Green