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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #475 on: October 22, 2013, 08:43:02 PM »
How did Kingsley find its way on this thread anyway?  She is more of a sister course.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #476 on: October 22, 2013, 08:58:01 PM »
JCowden,

Consider yourself invited to at least one of them anytime. :)



Andrew,

Perfect. Maybe we can coordinate a trip. Just a reminder that John will require an aluminum pole. His "Airing of Grievances" around the fire pit will leave you in tears. ;D




John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #477 on: October 22, 2013, 09:37:09 PM »
Cheers, Eric.  I appreciate that.  I'm visiting Bally this weekend.  Let's see, how many rounds are there in a long fall weekend in the Chop Hills?  I expect to find out.  

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #478 on: October 22, 2013, 09:42:41 PM »
But to repeat, do we have any idea regarding the number of common members?  I realize the next question might well be to ask total member numbers.  I, for one, don't need to go there.  But common members, now that, I think, is somewhat relevant to discussions such as this thread.  


Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #479 on: October 22, 2013, 09:46:09 PM »
J,

 I know of one guy who is a member of both clubs. There might be a couple more, but that all I know of.

Andrew Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #480 on: October 22, 2013, 09:47:52 PM »


Andrew,

Perfect. Maybe we can coordinate a trip. Just a reminder that John will require an aluminum pole. His "Airing of Grievances" around the fire pit will leave you in tears. ;D


Festivus for the restofus is fine. Just no talk of shrinkage...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #481 on: October 22, 2013, 09:51:22 PM »
J,

 I know of one guy who is a member of both clubs. There might be a couple more, but that all I know of.

Can we count Outpost guys?

Matt Elliot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #482 on: October 22, 2013, 09:53:44 PM »
CJ
[/quote]

   If you ever do come out, I'd suggest a 30 day dry aged (in Mullen) Cowboy cut ribeye steak, coupled with a tail.  Hard to beat...but it hasn't improved my putting.

[/quote]

I have had the very fortunate opportunity to spend two different weekends at Dismal River and would say this may be the best steak and tail I have ever had!!  If enjoying a great meal, kick ass shower and a overly comfortable bed after a day of 36 holes of golf is something that you like Dismal River can not be beat in my opinion!!

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #483 on: October 22, 2013, 10:04:45 PM »
J,

 I know of one guy who is a member of both clubs. There might be a couple more, but that all I know of.

Can we count Outpost guys?

In that case, 601!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #484 on: October 22, 2013, 10:12:55 PM »
J,

 I know of one guy who is a member of both clubs. There might be a couple more, but that all I know of.

Can we count Outpost guys?

In that case, 601!

If that is the truth I can't imagine why anyone would join either club.

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #485 on: October 22, 2013, 10:20:19 PM »
John, truthfully I don't know anything about the relationship between the two clubs and Outpost going forward. I do recall you were in favor of their involvement at Victoria National? Has that changed?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #486 on: October 22, 2013, 10:24:43 PM »
John, truthfully I don't know anything about the relationship between the two clubs and Outpost going forward. I do recall you were in favor of their involvement at Victoria National? Has that changed?

I don't give two shits who Outpost has deals with.

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #487 on: October 22, 2013, 10:29:04 PM »

Outpost Club




Thanks,

Can't wait to see one out on the course!!!  I will send a copy of Doak's Anatomy of a Golf Course to the first person to post the names of the courses current flashing on the homepage of their site.  http://www.outpostclub.com/

Peter Pallotta

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #488 on: October 22, 2013, 10:32:44 PM »
I sometimes get the feeling that, for all the good posts and photos and threads around here, all the REALLY good and important stuff is actually happening backstage and behind the scenes, and that I'm just an audience member sitting in the back row of the theatre watching "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf" and stupidly/naively assuming that what Burton and Taylor are doing ON SCREEN is in any way as interesting as what they're doing OFF it!

But please, carry on. I'm not yet above a juvenile fascination with the secret love lives of the stars!!

Peter

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #489 on: October 22, 2013, 11:08:49 PM »
Peter,

You have no idea. The Outpost Club, Jim Colton and Ballyneal have each done more for me than most any other entity in golf. This is all just a show. Like I once heard the smartest man I have ever had the pleasure of meeting tell my daughter. It all starts with a great story.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 11:10:47 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #490 on: October 22, 2013, 11:19:53 PM »
What happened to the no edit policy?

John, why such a low opinion of Tom's book? He just built you guys a great golf course!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #491 on: October 22, 2013, 11:42:08 PM »
What happened to the no edit policy?

John, why such a low opinion of Tom's book? He just built you guys a great golf course!

Jim,

As members of this site will attest I have given away multiple copies of his book.  Sorry if I didn't send along a picture of myself for good measure.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #492 on: October 23, 2013, 01:23:23 AM »
Reading through the (occasionally heated) comments on the thread would appear to indicate:

1) Every member (obviously) has a bias to their club - Some are more passionate than others but that bias will always be there. Both JKs did a really good job of presenting their thoughts in what seemed to be as matter a fact a manner as possible on this thread. I would be pretty surprised if a BN or DR member (or owner) scored the other course the winner in this match. Two different courses, two different experiences, even if you isolate them hole by hole the bias that a golfer has for a "certain" type of golf experience will shine through. Furthermore, if you took 100 golfers who were not members at either club and had a chance to play both on the same trip they would probably be fairly evenly split as well. Not that it matters, because at the end of the day the only opinion that really counts is your own. And then it only really matters if you are planning on dropping some cheddar to join one or the other.

2) Ballyneal and Dismal River compete for members, and they don't. They compete for national members, with other "destination" clubs, by appearing on the radar of potential golfers who have made a decision to join a private club that they are willing to travel to (often over long distances). Where they don't compete is the unique experience that each club provides. I would be shocked to meet someone who having played both says - "I'm just torn, I don't know which to join, they are so similar."

3) The differences between the clubs are HUGELY beneficial to each. The location, scenery, courses, club house(s), lodging, culture, etc. lead to completely unique experiences.

At the end of the day, it is kind of fun, maybe thought provoking or at least amusing, to compare courses (or even holes) side by side, and then to digress to discussions about the clubs and which is better, different, etc.

But IMO, the fact of the matter is, Ballyneal and Dismal River (and Sand Hills and Kingsley and etc.) cannot be compared to one another in any meaningful way because each place appeals to a different consumer within a subset who are seeking out a "private destination golf club".  

Probably the most interesting aspect of the DR and BN Boxing Match is that, over a big enough sample size, there are likely only a few points in scoring between them. So, like any ranking, it's pretty much splitting hairs when you are comparing great courses . . . that at the end of the day are actually quite different. Or something.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #493 on: October 23, 2013, 02:48:13 AM »
Chris Johnston,

I appreciate your attempt to reach out to me offline but I'd rather keep gca.com matters on gca.com. Anything I'd say to you in private I am willing to say here.  Believe it or not, my frustration with your comments on gca.com has little to do with you personally.

For me what it comes down to is that, IMO, you are here selling memberships to Dismal River. Or, as someone who described himself as "in your target demographic" put it earlier today, you are here "working hard to differentiate Dismal River from Ballyneal - two golf courses, lodging and food, carts, etc. - and I think that is fine and probably wise in today's market place."  But for me this isn't the place for reaching a "target demographic" or "differentiating" product "in today's market place" with a view to selling memberships. I view gca.com as a place for frank discussion about golf courses, and if participants are here selling golf courses then frank discussion doesn't stand a chance.

That said, I still owe you an apology. I was rude. I should have worked harder to make my point without going after you. I have nothing against you and you didn't deserve it.  It will not continue.  In the end it is Ran's website, and if he is comfortable with you here working hard to differentiate products and sell memberships then that is his prerogative.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 02:49:51 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #494 on: October 23, 2013, 09:02:08 AM »
Chris Johnston,

I appreciate your attempt to reach out to me offline but I'd rather keep gca.com matters on gca.com. Anything I'd say to you in private I am willing to say here.  Believe it or not, my frustration with your comments on gca.com has little to do with you personally.

For me what it comes down to is that, IMO, you are here selling memberships to Dismal River. Or, as someone who described himself as "in your target demographic" put it earlier today, you are here "working hard to differentiate Dismal River from Ballyneal - two golf courses, lodging and food, carts, etc. - and I think that is fine and probably wise in today's market place."  But for me this isn't the place for reaching a "target demographic" or "differentiating" product "in today's market place" with a view to selling memberships. I view gca.com as a place for frank discussion about golf courses, and if participants are here selling golf courses then frank discussion doesn't stand a chance.

That said, I still owe you an apology. I was rude. I should have worked harder to make my point without going after you. I have nothing against you and you didn't deserve it.  It will not continue.  In the end it is Ran's website, and if he is comfortable with you here working hard to differentiate products and sell memberships then that is his prerogative.

Good luck.

David

Apology accepted.  Note: the apology is accepted after yet another silly accusation.

I'm not here "selling memberships" (we are doing very well on our own, thanks) and I had no idea Chris had any interest in joining a national club until his follow-on post.  Chris is wise to do reserach and asked a question, and I did my best to fully respond.  I reached out to you with a request to talk in person, to "bury the hatchet" as adults do without damaging Ran's site.  You never responded, nor did you give me the courtesy of a call back.   Oh well.  

Let me ask you a question, would you be offended if I talked about how many members we had signed up?  The date we were raising initiation fees?  Expansion plans?  As you are devoted to architecture, wasn't that offensive as well?  I missed your objection when my good friend Jim Colton did just this.  Me?  I had no problem with it at all, but I was stunned you didn't throw a flag.  Judgement unequally applied isn't judgement at all.  

Rob  

I agree the places are different, with different vibes, and that is a good thing.  Choosing a club is a personal decision, and I vote for the best fit for the person, every time.  I'd be thrilled if Chris Hufnagel wanted to join Dismal, and equally thrilled if he wanted to join Ballyneal.  If it were me looking to join a club, I'd be asking a lot of questions about the club (plans, visions, committment, other members, etc) and get to know the people involved to see where I would fit.  These days, being an informed buyer is very wise.

From an owner perspective, we don't just want members...we want members who share the passion and respect we have for the place.  We aren't selling ShamWow's, we are asking people to help shape the future of our club.  We've had a handful of people this year who wanted to join, but were politely discouraged to do so.  A person should belong where they belong.

After conferring with Tom Doak, I didn't participate in the boxing match.  I was surprised more of the Ballyneal mafia didn't join in as many of the Dismal tribe did so.  You guys were missed.




« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 09:10:24 AM by Chris Johnston »

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #495 on: October 23, 2013, 09:26:46 AM »
Rob and CJ raise important points. These places often strike a chord with certain golfers, and the club that strikes loudest will differ from golfer to golfer. I know most of the Kingsley guys, and those guys LOVE that golf course. You see the same passion here. I was hooked the first time I set foot at Ballyneal in 2008. JK, Eric and Mac were smitten with the Nicklaus course early on. The great thing about these clubs is every member you meet has a similar passion for the place. Becoming a member at a destination club is one of most irrational decisions one will ever make; there are often other avenues to play these courses occasionally for far less money -- rater, outpost, serial guest, etc. You have to really want to be a member. You end up making lifelong friends through that shared passion. From that perspective, it can be a great decision.

Others probably visit these golf courses, shrug their shoulders and wonder what the big deal is. That's okay too.

The good news is with the addition of another great course to the region, more golfers will come and visit these remote places. The chord will certainly strike and future members will find their second home.



« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 09:28:47 AM by Jim Colton »

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #496 on: October 23, 2013, 10:06:28 AM »
Rob and CJ raise important points. These places often strike a chord with certain golfers, and the club that strikes loudest will differ from golfer to golfer. I know most of the Kingsley guys, and those guys LOVE that golf course. You see the same passion here. I was hooked the first time I set foot at Ballyneal in 2008. JK, Eric and Mac were smitten with the Nicklaus course early on. The great thing about these clubs is every member you meet has a similar passion for the place. Becoming a member at a destination club is one of most irrational decisions one will ever make; there are often other avenues to play these courses occasionally for far less money -- rater, outpost, serial guest, etc. You have to really want to be a member. You end up making lifelong friends through that shared passion. From that perspective, it can be a great decision.

Others probably visit these golf courses, shrug their shoulders and wonder what the big deal is. That's okay too.

The good news is with the addition of another great course to the region, more golfers will come and visit these remote places. The chord will certainly strike and future members will find their second home.

I think this post resonates the most with me and sums up what it means to be a member at a national club...

I feel a little responsible for the last few pages of posts as I originally asked Chris J. why he didn't think Dismal River competed with Ballyneal - to me, as an outside observer – they do and I don't see how they can't compete with each other – even just a little.  

Golfers like many of us [we love great architecture, we are willing to invest (time and money) in this pursuit, and with the means to do so] are certainly a finite resource, albeit a resource that is heavily concentrated within the fishbowl that is GCA.

I absolutely love the idea of destination clubs like Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Dismal River and Kingsley.  They are places where grown men can act like kids - get up at first light, golf until the darkness chases us off the course, laugh, share stories and a beverage, get away from everything else, a place that you dream of at night, a place you can't wait to get back to and hate to leave.  I applaud the men who had the vision and built these clubs and wish them only the best in the future.

As for me having "any interest in joining a national club" - I think Chris J. may have misinterpreted my question and follow-up - I am both proud and lucky to already be a member at a destination club.  As a member at such a club, I think it made me curious about the debate that was raging on this thread.  

As Jim Colton stated, it certainly is an irrational decision by many metrics, but probably the one of the best decisions I have ever made.  I think Chris J. is also very right in stating that prospective members should do their homework and make an informed decision.  

Some of my best memories over the past five years have been my days and nights at the club and I count many of my fellow members as some of my best friends today and the men I most look forward to seeing again soon.  I get more out of golf today than I ever had previously in my life - much of that due to my club, the people who take care of it, and our membership.

I hope for only the best for these clubs in the future - we are lucky to live in a day and age when they exist and we can spend a few hours each year traipsing the fairways with good friends...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 10:48:39 AM by Chris Hufnagel »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #497 on: October 23, 2013, 11:49:06 AM »
I plan on joining all these national clubs and jetting between them on my G6 with ex-Victoria's Secret models crew.  Only prerequisite is that in addition to true firm and fast conditions, they must have one of these:

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/overview/0,,1636191,00.html
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 11:56:24 AM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #498 on: October 23, 2013, 12:01:27 PM »
I plan on joining all these national clubs and jetting between them on my G6 with ex-Victoria's Secret models crew.  Only prerequisite is that in addition to true firm and fast conditions, they must have one of these:

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/overview/0,,1636191,00.html

Jud

Raising the bar - we're already working to install them on all carts!  Along with brat warmers.

The handhelds for devoted walkers are still in development with MacKenzie.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #499 on: October 23, 2013, 04:51:58 PM »
Chris Johnston,

You characterize my observation as a "silly accusation," but even your most ardent supporters must realize that you are here selling your product.   Now, to try and answer your questions . . .  

IMO, it is inappropriate and counter-productive for anyone to use this site to try and sell memberships to their club, and this includes Jim Colton and his mention of membership numbers, fee issues, expansion plans, strength of operation, etc.  But I have a hard time blaming Jim in this instance because he has largely been responding to your multiple attempts to "differentiate" your club from his.  IMO, your sales style puts us all in a difficult position, but it especially puts Ballyneal members in a difficult position.  Decorum may dictate that they refrain from discussing such things here, but when you are working so hard to "differentiate" your club from theirs, what are they to do if they disagree with some of your characterizations?  (Frankly I am impressed with their restraint.)   Also, with regard to Jim, I just don't see the same constant focus on selling the product.  He has long contributed on a variety of issues, and hasn't been trying to turn every other thread into an informercial for Ballyneal, at least not lately.  In comparison, if we went back and looked at all your posts what percentage of them do you suppose concern the attributes of your club?

Anyway, yours were fair questions and maybe my answer has helped explain why it concerns me when participants use this site as a sales forum.  Once the ball gets rolling it is hard to stop.  You make your sales pitch . . . Jim responds with his counter-pitch . . . You respond with your counter-counter-pitch to his counter-pitch.   Next thing you know everyone is whipping out their "porterhouses" and "brats" for comparison.  

I hope this helps answer your questions.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 04:53:55 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)