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Mac Plumart

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #225 on: October 10, 2013, 06:29:30 AM »
Ha!

Bill stated he hasn't played Dismal Red, but he implies the scoring isn't right in the context of this thread despite having no knowledge of what it is actually like on the ground out there.  Dave agrees...Dave you taken the time to play it yet?

Love it!  Love it, love it. 


Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #226 on: October 10, 2013, 07:37:33 AM »
Although you may not find Justice within the scoring of this thread, you can find acts, people, events, and scores which, in some sense, resemble or share in or participate in the Form Justice -- indeed, it is this which makes all such things just.  You will never see perfect Justice in life, only shadowy copies, but you might come to an intellectual grasp of Justice by traveling to see (and play) the courses you choose to pit against one another in a GCA style boxing match and actually score and/or critique the scoring of.

But, of course, the specifics of golf courses and golf holes that touch and move us is different from person to person.  So somewhere deep within the Justice we all seem to seek, we need to be fully aware that our counterparts opinions on that precise definition will be different than our own.

10-8's.  I thought about going 10-7 in regards to a few holes.  Ballyneal 8 is one of those.  A transcendent golf experience, given what I crave in a golf hole.  From the time I saw the hole on the tee box the first time, to the time I negotiated the green on my latest (and 5th) go 'round, the hole embodied everything I love about playing the game.  Same can be said for Dismal Red 4.  To date, all of my 6 rounds have led to ecstatic joy from tee to green...tactical decisions to be made, options to be considered, execution demanded.

If you don't agree...fine.  That is the beauty of discussing the playing grounds of this game we all so enjoy.  We all values different things in different amounts.  Rather than cry injustice because someone carries a different viewpoint, why not take the tie to experience both courses and discuss your views on the matter?


EDIT...where is Bourgeois when you need him?  I wrap Plato into a GCA Boxing Match thread and he's no where to be found.  Slacker.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 10:20:54 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #227 on: October 10, 2013, 07:55:55 AM »
In the end we will learn what we already know, these are two very good golf courses. I enjoy reading how the judges break down the holes and justify their score. It has been a nice exercise and I'd  suggest no one get side tracked by those who sit on the sidelines taking pot shots. Seems like any decent thread here has to have some sort of "correctness" police. It is getting very tiresome to wade thru all that on every thread.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #228 on: October 10, 2013, 08:52:14 AM »
Duly chastised by the experts, I can only say, in the style of Steve Martin, well ex-CUSE me!

Josh Tarble

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #229 on: October 10, 2013, 09:08:58 AM »
Personally, I could care less what the actual scores of the "judges" are...I've just really enjoyed the breakdown and comparison of each hole.  These type of threads are what makes GCA great! Thanks again for the effort everyone is putting into it.

Simon Holt

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #230 on: October 10, 2013, 09:54:26 AM »
Here is my scorecard just to keep this moving along.  This has been a cool exercise for two of my favourite courses.

1. Dismal
2. Halved
3. Halved
4. Dismal
5. Halved
6. Dismal
7. Ballyneal
8. Ballyneal
9. Dismal
10. Halved
11. Halved
12. Ballyneal
13. Ballyneal....by a nose!  

I think 13 could change after each play.  I love the fairway at Ballyneal but the tee shot at Dismal is heroic with the bunker on the right and the gains from taking it on.  True risk/reward.  

The bunkers that spilt the fairway on 13 at Ballyneal seem much more interesting than just another way to split a fairway, hugging the land really nicely.  When you walk past the central bunkers you find more behind them, on the downslope.  This reminds me of some of the bunkers on the Old Course that were clearly in play when the course was played backwards.  

The exact bunkers I'm referencing at TOC are the ones just in front of Hell bunker on 14, when you walk off the fairway making a beeline for the 15th tee.  I think they are called the Cat traps are something like that but I haven't checked.  You don't see many like that.  Effectively they are easier to come out of towards the green than if you were to hit backwards.

I also think the green at Ballyneal is just a little more interesting but I guess most guys will be going into that with a shorter club, opposed to Dismal where it's one of the longer 4s on the course.

Both great golf holes.  The backdrop and more plays at Dismal could sway me but Ballyneal has it for now.

2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Simon Holt

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #231 on: October 10, 2013, 10:04:20 AM »
Ah.  Just realised that some of the comments about the 12th have been removed to allow for catch-up.  Ignore my comments until we "officially" get to 13.  I also have a few questions about 12 at Dismal when we discuss that.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #232 on: October 10, 2013, 10:48:19 AM »
It appears that I have not commented since the eighth hole.  Ballyneal is on a hell of a run with two decisive victories in a row.  The match stands Red - 74, BN - 74.  Interesting that with similar pieces of land and the same architect that we could have a tie after eight rounds.  

Look both ways haters, cause we are crossing the road.

This is my first attempt at judging since my recent visit to Red.  I continue to be amazed at the evolution of the course which has not ceased since the 5th Major.  The green contours are shocking, intense and sublime, a trait no lost on Ballyneal.  As I have said before it is not a stretch to hope and confirm that Doak has matured and evolved as an architect.  It is no ones fault or does not sell any of his previous courses short.  I have instituted a no-edit policy on this thread so will not be going back to change my ballots based on rediscovered green contours.  Keeping with, and based on my inability to remember specific greens at BN, outside of the 7th, I will try to ignore my recent experiences outside the scope of emotional feel related to time and space.

Round 9.  How can you combine the first and ninth tee while returning to the clubhouse? Jump in the bed of a passing truck.  

I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of respect the 9th at Ballyneal has received on this site since its inception.  Dirt was moved, so what.  It is a nice traditional finish to a glorious front.  A fine unitarian hole.  A beer stop so to speak.  One of my favorite templates.  I have fond memories on many levels.

The Red 9th is a hole that I still do not understand.  I can't find an aiming point and continually play to safe which results in hitting through the fairway.  I spent a considerable amount of time wondering who the hell can drive that green.  My lack of talent is out running my imagination.  We were playing into a violent head wind which led us to the yellow tees.  I look forward to returning in less inhumane conditions and playing from up by the first tee.  

Verdict Red 10 - 9

Round 10  I'm boring myself here.

I love the 10th at Ballyneal.  One of the finest par 4's I have ever played.  The Red 10th is an adventurous par 5 where the second shot is like being called to the board in math class when you have been daydreaming about the little red haired girl sitting in front of you.  You hole your notes tight to your crotch hoping no one will notice until this odd, and greatly missed, combination of anxiety and excitement dissipates.  If you don't hit a proper second you are faced with a forced draw third from a blind uphill lie.  A wonderful journey of learning and failure.

Verdict Ballyneal 10 - 9

Round 11 God's Protractor

Here we have a couple of fine par threes that could easily be a push.  I see the difference here being in how on the Red a combination of teeing areas all equidistant from the 10th green provide 90 degrees of changing shot angles.  Doak got lucky on this one.

Verdict Red 10 - 9

Round 12 I hate golf art, movies and jokes.

The painting of the 12th at Ballyneal by Josh Smith is the one exception.  Both are fine holes and fun to play but any hole with such dimensional fortitude that it looks exiting on canvas is not going to lose a round.

Verdict Ballyneal 10 - 8

Running card:

1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9
7.  BN   10 - 9
8.  BN   10 - 8
9.  Red  10 - 9
10. BN  10 - 9
11. Red 10 - 9
12. BN  10 - 8

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #233 on: October 10, 2013, 11:09:41 AM »
JK it is great to have you back on the thread. I hope your trip was fantastic!

The 12th at Dismal Red is a really neat blind shot off the tee. I am partial to a few blind tee shots, because I think that they add a bit a fun and mystery to the game. Picking the line is very important and saying away from the left is also very important, because there is a little ravine on the left that will chew your ball up if you flirt with it too much. The green is a neat and subtle peninsula green. I really liked this hole. However, the 12th at Ballyneal is a true gem. It is not a long hole but a hole that falls off steaply on the right side. The ripples in the fairway are amazing to see when the sun is setting and each hump casts long shadows across the fairway. A fairway bunker is extends out on the left to capture any stray shots. The undulating fairway is paired with one of the most dramatic greens I have come across. Make sure you hit to the right area, because a three putt is a definite possibility if your approach shot is off. This is one of my favorite holes in the world, so Ballyneal takes this one 10-8 on boldness alone.

1: DR 10-9
2: Push 10-10
3: BN 10-9
4: DR 10-9
5: BN 10-9
6: DR 10-8
7: BN 10-8
8: BN 10-9
9: DR 10-8
10: BN 10-9
11: Push 10-10
12: BN 10-8

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #234 on: October 10, 2013, 11:18:21 AM »
I have never been a fan of artificial aiming devices and have come out agains their use on such vaulted courses as NGLA.  I'm sorry that Red found the need to place a skull in the fairway to properly guide the golfer away from the hidden left side bunker.  It is a necessary evil.  I get it and do like the choice of device.  There is a ton of room right which is the safe choice but leads to another blind shot to the green.

Simon Holt

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #235 on: October 10, 2013, 11:31:55 AM »
The 12th is one of two holes at Dismal that still has me scratching my head.  Ok, its a blind shot.  Great.  But if you keep away from the bunker on the left and end up too far right, you have little or no shot into the green.  To land short with your approach coming from that side, you hit a downslope and shoot right to the back of the green.  I think the play may be to challenge the left hand bunker (for the big hitters), or play short of it on that line to really access all the pins.  Especially with that right to left slope off the right hand side of the green.

The green itself is beautifully sited.  It appears to float out there, framed by the distant hills.  I'm still undecided on Dismal's hole so in my mind that Ballyneal gets this round.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #236 on: October 10, 2013, 11:35:13 AM »
The 12th is one of two holes at Dismal that still has me scratching my head.  Ok, its a blind shot.  Great.  But if you keep away from the bunker on the left and end up too far right, you have little or no shot into the green.  To land short with your approach coming from that side, you hit a downslope and shoot right to the back of the green.  I think the play may be to challenge the left hand bunker (for the big hitters), or play short of it on that line to really access all the pins.  Especially with that right to left slope off the right hand side of the green.

The green itself is beautifully sited.  It appears to float out there, framed by the distant hills.  I'm still undecided on Dismal's hole so in my mind that Ballyneal gets this round.
I think the left is a good play and I have decided after playing it 3 times and being in that left bunker twice, that I would hit 3W off the tee on that hole (depending on the wind) and making sure to stay short of the bunker. I do agree that the angle from the left is nice.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #237 on: October 10, 2013, 11:51:23 AM »
So as to not completely bog down the site in Dismal for dismal's sake I will be running a directors cut on my MySpace page: https://myspace.com/gillettesilver

Please forgive me as I am just learning the technology.

Stephen Davis

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #238 on: October 10, 2013, 12:06:08 PM »
So as to not completely bog down the site in Dismal for dismal's sake I will be running a directors cut on my MySpace page: https://myspace.com/gillettesilver

Please forgive me as I am just learning the technology.

JK Great homepage picture!!! It made me laugh :D

John Kirk

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #239 on: October 10, 2013, 12:22:49 PM »
The 12th Hole at Dismal River plays from 355 to 430 yards long.  Here is a picture of the tee shot, courtesy of Cliff Walston's fine photo essay:



I like the way this looks.  It is very enticing and unusual.  Even for a first time player, the right to left slope at the crest gives a clue that left is probably better.  It's so wide I don't worry about losing it, so I swung the driver freely.  From 430 yards, I bombed it up the hill, down the middle, and left myself about 170-175 yards downhill, from the top of the hill down to the green.  Even though it played into the wind, this shot played short, and I used the gentle side slope to bounce a 7-iron down onto the green, and made a tap-in par.

The hole must play significantly different from shorter tee boxes.  Once you can carry the slope and get a downhill first bounce, I imagine the tee shot can quickly get away.  But I can also imagine powerful young guys come close to driving this green in a northern wind.

The walk up the 12th fairway is among the tougher climbs on the course.

How far is the little hidden fairway bunker is from the tee?

As my tastes evolve, I find myself drawn to these simple designs that don't require a lot of bunkering.  Fun to drive the ball, not too hard, with a feeling of wide open spaces.  Although Larry Lambrecht's photo of the approach is less informative for golf discussion, it shows the unusual sand formations across the Dismal River.



There's little value for me in attempting to drive the 12th green at Ballyneal, under any circumstance.  I've tried a few times.  There's a lot of incentive to get your ball on the left half of the fairway, where all hole locations are more easily accessible.

The green is very undulating, with a front right bowl, a back right bowl, and a left side trench.  In recent offsite commentary, somebody suggested they had a problem with the penalty for missing the center of the green by a yard in the wrong direction.  This is a hole where I only play for the center if I've mishit the drive and have a very long approach shot.  Course knowledge is essential to full enjoyment.  The combination of knowing the green and having the exact yardage creates one of the most enjoyable decisions of the day.  My line of approach may differ if the distance is three yards longer or shorter, and much of this is based on knowing how the green will redirect the ball upon impact.

The back left bunker is a common miss for the aggressive attempt at a back left pin.  That bunker can yield an easy shot, or an instant double bogey because the walls of the bunker prevent the player from even swinging at it.

If you do drive it over the left fairway bunkers to the sliver of fairway over there, you do get a better angle to left side pins.  I almost never try, unless I'm just fooling around.

One of Ballyneal's most picturesque holes, and a personal favorite.  Photos courtesy of L.C. Lambrecht.



Ballyneal wins (all wins are 10-9), and goes 2 up.



    
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:29:36 PM by John Kirk »

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #240 on: October 10, 2013, 12:33:18 PM »
12th holes -

Dismal - I really enjoy the challenge presented by blind tee shots.  I like having to commit to a non-defined line and then trust it.  This can be even harder to do when playing in significant wind, as is often the case with both Dismal and Ballyneal.  You certainly want to avoid the left miss but a bail out right is no good, your second shot is then blind.  I love the greensite and distant backdrop here as the green sits out on a peninsula.  An excellent par 4 that I suspect will be enjoyed and appreciated more with repeated play.

Ballyneal - The 12th at Ballyneal is probably my favorite hole on the course.  Again, tee shots should favor the left side and the hole is driveable under the right conditions.  The green is a gem, it almost has contours like a clover.  You must keep your approach in the proper segment of the green to have a realistic birdie chance.  Otherwise, a 3 putt or worse is a distinct possibility.

Ballyneal takes this one....10-9....

Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8
10.  Push 10-10
11.  Dismal  10-9
12.  Ballyneal  10-9

The match is all square on my card through 12 holes.....

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #241 on: October 10, 2013, 02:43:29 PM »

1  Ballyneal 10-9
2  Ballyneal 10-9
3  Dismal River Red 10-9
4  Dismal River Red 10-9
5  Dismal River Red 10-9
6  Dismal River Red 10-8
7  Ballyneal 10-8
8  Ballyneal 10-9
9  Dismal River Red 10-8
10  Push 10-10
11  Ballyneal 10-9

12 - Ballyneal #12 is a great golf hole, especially with the options off the tee.  Second shot is really impacted by the location of the drive, being either a clean look to the left or blind look to the right.  #12 at Dismal is a solid golf hole and I would agree with the comments already mentinoed on this string.  Howevever, it is not as good as #12 at Ballyneal.  Ballyneal 10-9.  

Back to a tie on my card.

I think it is going to be extremely hard to evaluate the 16th holes as one is a par 3 and the other is a par 5.  Would be better to judge DRR #16 with Ballyneal #15 and DRR#15 with Ballyneal #16, but up to John Kavanaugh and John Kirk on that one.

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #242 on: October 10, 2013, 03:44:03 PM »
I agree it will be tough, but we should probably keep the format consistent, but let's hear what the JKs say.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #243 on: October 10, 2013, 04:13:44 PM »
15 vs 15. Etc.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #244 on: October 10, 2013, 05:28:35 PM »
The 12th is one of two holes at Dismal that still has me scratching my head.  Ok, its a blind shot.  Great.  But if you keep away from the bunker on the left and end up too far right, you have little or no shot into the green.  To land short with your approach coming from that side, you hit a downslope and shoot right to the back of the green.  I think the play may be to challenge the left hand bunker (for the big hitters), or play short of it on that line to really access all the pins.  Especially with that right to left slope off the right hand side of the green.

The green itself is beautifully sited.  It appears to float out there, framed by the distant hills.  I'm still undecided on Dismal's hole so in my mind that Ballyneal gets this round.

Simon,

The beauty of #12 Red is, it is very much an "cerebral" or "equalizer" hole - and there aren't many like it in golf.  The further you hit the ball, the more peril awaits + leaving a very awkward 2nd (sometimes a half) shot.  Long hitters benefit by distance but length is not necessarily good.  Guys who lay back have a full view of the green from (guessing) 150-165 yards.  Mickelson might probably bomb it, but Tiger would probably hit a stinger 5 iron - my money would be on Tiger every time.  Me?  Driver, and a lot of frustrating bogeys.  Lots of birdies for those "wise".

Agree about the green and siting - very special with views galore.

Cliff Walston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #245 on: October 10, 2013, 06:29:10 PM »
Quote from: Chris Johnston
Agree about the green and siting - very special with views galore.
/quote

And who could have picked such a wonderful green site?   ;)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #246 on: October 11, 2013, 09:47:47 AM »
Round 13.  To and Fro

It is always best to proceed a great hole than to follow one.  The 13th at Ballyneal seems like a breather after the great 12th showcasing, once again, the great chop hills.  I fine hole on its own but somewhat lost in the bright light of what has been seen before.

The Red 13th is a Mo Green shot to the eye.  Painful, quick and unforgiving.  When you exit the 12th green you look to the right and see a 490+ yd post.  Knowing that won't work you begin to search for a tee to meet the days talents. wants and dreams.  We recently had a long journey to the 300 yd tee.  Sure it was a five club wind and we were scared but this was a bit extreme.  I've played the hole without being bound and gagged and it is still tough from a "reasonable" tee. A pleasant surprise of unpleasantness. This will be a pivotal hole in any round.

Verdit. Red 10 - 9

Running card:

1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9
7.  BN   10 - 9
8.  BN   10 - 8
9.  Red  10 - 9
10. BN  10 - 9
11. Red 10 - 9
12. BN  10 - 8
13. Red 10 - 9

After a bakers dozen my card is tied.  Who cooked the books?


Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #247 on: October 11, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
The 13th round is a great matchup of two long par 4's.  The 13th at Ballyneal is a 510 yard hole but plays much shorter as it's downhill.  The fairway is huge with some wonderful contour and there are four fairway bunkers which made tee shot placement a priority.  You should favor the left side of the fairway for the best angle of approach into the green.

The 13th at Dismal is a majestic golf hole.  In miy eyes, it has everything that a great long par 4 should have.  It's demanding.  It offers an aggressive option off the tee that can be rewarding if executed properly.  It offers a safe route for those that choose to play conservatively.  The green complex accepts many types of shots.  There are interesting contours.  It's visually deceptive with bunkers well short of the green.  It's a beautiful golf hole.  It's one of my favorite holes on the course.  It's crucial to play the appropriate teeing area here to play the hole as intended.  The long hitter has the option to go over or just left of the right fairway bunker and is then rewarded with a kick forward and to the right off the downslope.  You can then be left with a short iron in.  For me, this is the hole that really feels like you're headed down to the river.  

Dismal takes this one....10-9.

Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8
10.  Push 10-10
11.  Dismal  10-9
12.  Ballyneal  10-9
13.  Dismal  10-9

Dismal takes the overall lead on my card, 1 up through 13 holes.



Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #248 on: October 11, 2013, 10:18:58 AM »
2 cell phone pics of 13 Red.
The tee shot with the green visible at the base of the ancient buffalo run in the distance.

The approach with the buffalo run again as a backdrop.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #249 on: October 11, 2013, 10:51:14 AM »
Jimmy got this one perfectly right in his description.   One addition, the back drop of the buffalo run for the green provides a wonderful setting and really cool approach.

Dismal River Red #13 gets this one -  10-9.

Dismal River Red has a 1 up lead going into the last 5 holes.  
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones