Who located those damn

[Patrick_Mucci]

cart paths ?

On a number of courses I've noticed paved cart paths very close to the corridors of play, especially at the green end.

At other courses I've noticed that the paved cart paths end as you approach the green and either wood chip paths or paths composed of other materials continue, so as not to unduly influence play.

Recently, a friend hit a marginal shot into a green, only to see the ball bounce off a nearby cart path and into woods and OB.

Years ago, an architect told me that he didn't want to get involved in locating cart paths due to liability issues.

Do most clubs simply pave paths where they notice cart traffic or does someone just place them where they think they'll service the golfer without much regard for their potential impact on play ?

How many architects include cart paths with their course designs ?

[Mike Policano]

Pat,

My experience is too many paths go where the carts go rather than the carts going where the paths go resulting in paths being very close to greens too often.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I'd agree.

I think many clubs merely pave where they see aras worn by carts rather than placing paths in better locations

[Brent Hutto]

Short answer? Because many places "golf" and "golf carts" are synonymous.

People are going to drive their carts from within 10 paces of the tee to within 10 paces of the green whether there's a path there or not.

[jeffwarne]

Short answer? Because many places "golf" and "golf carts" are synonymous.

People are going to drive their carts from within 10 paces of the tee to within 10 paces of the green whether there's a path there or not.

and even if they do stay on the path, two wheels will definitely not be

[Patrick_Mucci]

Short answer? Because many places "golf" and "golf carts" are synonymous.

People are going to drive their carts from within 10 paces of the tee to within 10 paces of the green whether there's a path there or not.

Brent,

Not if there's a six (6) or eight (  inch curb

[Michael Moore]

I think many clubs merely pave where they see aras worn by carts rather than placing paths in better locations

The worn areas are the correct location for a path. It is the job of any path to be where the traffic flows. Otherwise you will end up with a path and a worn area.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think many clubs merely pave where they see aras worn by carts rather than placing paths in better locations

The worn areas are the correct location for a path.

You're so wrong that it's hard to believe

It is the job of any path to be where the traffic flows.

Absolutely not.
Paths should NOT be in close proximity to areas of play

Otherwise you will end up with a path and a worn area.

Not when the paths have significant curbing.

You have so much to learn and Mike Sweeney's hot line is ringing "busy"

[David Whitmer]

I saw a whole bunch of this when I was the golf pro at a local club here in Cincinnati. I was there at its inception, and for its first 7 years of operation. It was to be (and is) part of a very upscale residential community, filled with homes in excess of $1,000,000 (that's a very, very nice house for Cincinnati).

When the course was conceived and built, there were to be no cart paths. However, as operations began it became apparent that many more members and guests were using golf carts than we thought would, so the need to build cart paths arose.

One hole jumped out at me, and it was the 2nd hole. Picture a long, fairly straight par 4, with OB and four or five very nice homes to the left, and tall grass separating the hole from the driving range to the right. At the tee, the cart path coming from the first green was to the left of the tee boxes. That could not be changed. Also, the cart path needed to be to the left of the 2nd green to get to the third tee. That also could not be changed.

So obviously, since the cart paths at the tee and the green were to the left of the hole, it made total sense to have the path go up the entire left side of the hole. However, the four or five homeowners got together and said "Hell no! We don't want to look out our back windows and see a cart path." So the club countered with, "We'll build mounding and/or plant trees so you can't see the path." The homeowners came back with "No way...we like our view the way it is."

So, the club relented and had the new path start left of the tees, then cross to the right in front of the fairway, then go down the right side of the hole, then cross the fairway about 80 yards from the green to get back left. It made the hole look ridiculous.

The homeowners won, all because the club didn't have the stones to tell them to shove off. Perhaps afraid of litigation, I guess. Perhaps a justifiable reason...I don't know. All I know is, the end result was an eyesore, in an otherwise beautiful course and club. Didn't really affect playability, which I think is Pat's main theme in this thread. But an example of the path going where it really shouldn't have gone.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

I design my own paths.  It's simply a matter of whether your errors and omissions insurance covers it, and mine does.  And, as mentioned, when clubs put their own paths in (which they invariably do a year later) they do it so horribly as to sometimes ruin a pretty nice golf course.

Besides those legal obligations, I give a lot of thought to where those paths go.  Its a tricky balance of handy vs. hidden.  I've always thought Fazio does a great job of hiding paths, but they often (not always, as he seems to put them closer on public courses) just get so far away that no one uses them.  He also does a great job of hiding them when they cross the fairways.

On greens, I never put them closer than 45 feet, maybe a bit more on the right side than the left.  60 feet is my preferred distance, but that is also the maximum distance we can place them before more golfers park inside them than not. Put a path 75 feet from the green, and it won't get used.  It just feels like its too far to walk!

I will put them as close as 40 feet behind the green, where fewer shots land.  I know one public super who puts the 25 feet away when behind the green.  While I wouldn't put it that close, when behind the green it works better than you might think.

[Lou_Duran]

Probably one of the most controversial designers on this site, Tom Fazio, seems to give the most attention to this important detail.  Not only are his cart paths usually out of play, they are mostly away from the line of sight, and there is some thought given to doing all this while not excessively extending the time it takes to play the round.  Of course, his budgets allow him to be a bit more circumspect in this regard.

BTW, I thought that the cart paths at Sand Hills have evolved very nicely.

[David Davis]

Don't like them at all in fact, I think carts should be banned for everyone except those truly in need or those trying to squeeze in a last 18 after a 36-54 hole day. I'll make an exception for these diehards.

I think the cart paths should not ever be in view from the playing area (although I realize this can be impossible in some cases).

When they are there I've been known to utilize them effectively on my approaches to get myself out of bad trouble, much to the disbelief of some GCA friends :-)

[Dave Doxey]

Cart paths should run directly down the center of the fairway.

Straight hitters get a well-deserved distance boost if they hit the path.

Shorter walks for cart path-only days.

Never get a bad bounce into a hazard or OB.

 

[Brian Colbert]

I would estimate cart paths have cost me at least 50 strokes over my lifetime of playing competitive golf. Never seen a cart path which I thought enhanced the golf course. It seems to be a more significant problem in public golf.

[Tim Gavrich]

Cart paths should run directly down the center of the fairway.

Straight hitters get a well-deserved distance boost if they hit the path.

Shorter walks for cart path-only days.

Never get a bad bounce into a hazard or OB.

 

What about the converse: cart path as hazard? After all, what is the Road Hole without the Road? 

[John Kavanaugh]

I've retrofitted quite a few for clubs on a very tight budget. We try to limit their length and place them where our equipment can gain access. Cost is king. We have to stay away from trees while being on level ground. Kinda sounds like where you want to hit your ball.

I've done two jobs where I was paid $1 for every cart rental until paid in full.  Both times I was paid off quicker than the club had planned. The only people bitching were the walkers.

[jeffwarne]

I would estimate cart paths have cost me at least 50 strokes over my lifetime of playing competitive golf. Never seen a cart path which I thought enhanced the golf course. It seems to be a more significant problem in public golf.

Remember that it's not just players that use the paths.
maintenance crews are responsible for a lot of turf wear/compaction.
(and their work still needs to be done rain or shine, as golfers are coming once the rain stops)
There are certain places there need to be hard surfaces, despite the best planning by the Superintendant.
Ironically, the bigger money "walking only" clubs have the budgets for the large crews buzzing around all day in their many vehicles

[Tim Gavrich]

I would estimate cart paths have cost me at least 50 strokes over my lifetime of playing competitive golf. Never seen a cart path which I thought enhanced the golf course. It seems to be a more significant problem in public golf.

Remember that it's not just players that use the paths.
maintenance crews are responsible for a lot of turf wear/compaction.
(and their work still needs to be done rain or shine, as golfers are coming once the rain stops)
There are certain places there need to be hard surfaces, despite the best planning by the Superintendant.
Ironically, the bigger money "walking only" clubs have the budgets for the large crews buzzing around all day in their many vehicles

To that point, I was amused when I played Mayacama that not only does the course have wall-to-wall cart paths for its army of maintenance staff, those paths don't seem to be placed any differently than they'd be if the course were bit walking only. Of course the terrain is largely responsible for this, but to look at an aerial on Google Maps you'd never guess Mayacana was walking-only.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I know of clubs that simply paved the areas worn out by carts, never giving any thought to the ideal location for them.

Some clubs have a tendency to prohibit carts when they receive rainfall of varying degrees.
The addition of out of play cart paths would be helpful in those situations, but I don't think much thought has been given to it......yet

[Patrick_Mucci]

In the recent play of a course I noticed that the cart paths seemed to be confined to the teeing areas on the par 4's and par 5's and behind those greens, and that on the par 3's, the cart paths were located at the teeing area, up along the flank of the hole, far removed from the playing corridor and then, back behind the green at a good distance.

This seemed like a reasonable formula.

There were par 4's and par 5's with cart paths leading from the tee, but, they seemed to move away from the areas of play as they headed up the flank of the hole, usually stopping 50 or so yards in front of the women's tees.

[Philip Caccamise]

I saw a whole bunch of this when I was the golf pro at a local club here in Cincinnati. I was there at its inception, and for its first 7 years of operation. It was to be (and is) part of a very upscale residential community, filled with homes in excess of $1,000,000 (that's a very, very nice house for Cincinnati).

When the course was conceived and built, there were to be no cart paths. However, as operations began it became apparent that many more members and guests were using golf carts than we thought would, so the need to build cart paths arose.

One hole jumped out at me, and it was the 2nd hole. Picture a long, fairly straight par 4, with OB and four or five very nice homes to the left, and tall grass separating the hole from the driving range to the right. At the tee, the cart path coming from the first green was to the left of the tee boxes. That could not be changed. Also, the cart path needed to be to the left of the 2nd green to get to the third tee. That also could not be changed.

So obviously, since the cart paths at the tee and the green were to the left of the hole, it made total sense to have the path go up the entire left side of the hole. However, the four or five homeowners got together and said "Hell no! We don't want to look out our back windows and see a cart path." So the club countered with, "We'll build mounding and/or plant trees so you can't see the path." The homeowners came back with "No way...we like our view the way it is."

So, the club relented and had the new path start left of the tees, then cross to the right in front of the fairway, then go down the right side of the hole, then cross the fairway about 80 yards from the green to get back left. It made the hole look ridiculous.

The homeowners won, all because the club didn't have the stones to tell them to shove off. Perhaps afraid of litigation, I guess. Perhaps a justifiable reason...I don't know. All I know is, the end result was an eyesore, in an otherwise beautiful course and club. Didn't really affect playability, which I think is Pat's main theme in this thread. But an example of the path going where it really shouldn't have gone.
--------------------------

And that, people, is the Heritage Club in a nutshell.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Remember that it's not just players that use the paths.
maintenance crews are responsible for a lot of turf wear/compaction.
(and their work still needs to be done rain or shine, as golfers are coming once the rain stops)

They shouldn't be within the reasonable playing corridors.
Crews don't need cart paths five (5) yards off of a green.

There are certain places there need to be hard surfaces, despite the best planning by the Superintendant.

But Jeff, those cart paths shouldn't be in the direct line of fire for golfers as they play the holes.

Ironically, the bigger money "walking only" clubs have the budgets for the large crews buzzing around all day in their many vehicles