[Wayne_Kozun]

Here in the UK as late as the 1960's many sports felt that the amateur game was of a purer and therefore higher form of the sport.

Didn't it go on much longer than that?  Rugby Union was an amateur only game until 1995 - the professionals were relegated to a different code called Rugby League which was more popular in working class Northern England.  

[Tony_Muldoon]

I haven't come close to properly testing JakaB's theory because I find it a bit distasteful to go in search of invites without properly being invited - if you know what I mean.  I have written a few letters with some success and leaned on guys I know that said they could help.  Generally speaking though, I am not on a mission to play the "big tickets".  I must admit it is easy for me to have that attitude because I can access loads of fine golf not terribly far from home without any hassle .  

I too would like to know how the systems started.  I get the impression that in Scotland golf was fairly affordable back in the day and that later on that attitude wasn't carried over to England.  Sure, there was probably a sense of noblesse oblige, but I think there was a fairly strict line between middle class and working class and golf was a middle class game, just as was cricket and rugby.  Football was working class stuff.  Somewhere along the line the English clubs opened up, probably the following the 2nd WW when clubs were desperate for members and the middle class was just starting to meld into a more inclusive group of people.  I don't see how working class folks could afford green fees and the time off work even if they had access.  Thus, in England there is a tradition of artisan clubs populated by working class folks.  Not many remain relative to 75 years ago.  There was also a bit of a movement by JH Taylor and Hawtree to build public courses.  Anyway, for the most part, these two alternatives for lower middle class folks didn't pan out very well, but what did happen was a ton more clubs opened up which catered to these folks.  That system is still in place today where there are loads of modest clubs which have dues under £1000 a year.  I don't think there are many US clubs which are that cheap and accessible.  Instead, in the US, public and muni courses took off. I bet there are about the same percent of private to public in GB&I as public to private in the US.  Theoretically, there is little need for US players to gain membership of private courses and vice versa in GB&I.  

Ciao  

Sean I think you are mostly on the money with this, but would add.

Access in Scotland was open to all because many courses gave access to more than one club.  Between these  Clubs there was social  stratification.


In England I don't think Golf really changed for the majority of Clubs until the 80's when a vast no of new alternatives started to appear.  Only when clubs realised that the names they had on their waiting lists had all found other places to play did they start to welcome a wider cross section of members.   It would be interesting to see the decline in no's of Artisan Clubs over time, my belief is they were still going strong in the 70's.   I recently played with a retired guy who was a tremendous partner in every way.  He lived next to Tandridge but had never joined, as in the 70's they let him know that they were not interested in businessmen only Professionals.

[Sean_A]

Spangles

For sure, once the post war generation came into fruition things went into a higher gear, but many clubs were taking non-professional members from well before that.  I belonged to one which prided itself on being an artisan club and it is over 100 years old.  The thing I find very curious is the lack of will in the development of public courses.  I can only surmise there wasn't much call for public courses; the folks who could afford to play and were keen, could join clubs.

Ciao  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Spangles

For sure, once the post war generation came into fruition things went into a higher gear, but many clubs were taking non-professional members from well before that.  I belonged to one which prided itself on being an artisan club and it is over 100 years old.  The thing I find very curious is the lack of will in the development of public courses.  I can only surmise there wasn't much call for public courses; the folks who could afford to play and were keen, could join clubs.

Ciao  

The London County Council had an early start with this and in the 1930's had Hawtree and Taylor design two excellent courses at Hainault Forrest. For year these were known as the busiest golf courses in Europe.  Moreton has written on municipal Golf in the West Midlands and it did seem to take off their.  I've only played the one in the south bit of Sutton Coldfield park and half of it is really thrilling, I suspect it was once 9 fine holes.

Pure speculation on my part but.... most urban areas in the UK have tended to return majority Labour councils.   To them golf was beyond the pale even if in the examples above a) the projects showed a fine return on investment and b) the fun went to people who could not afford or get access to private clubs. I do think it's that simple.  

In the 1930's there was a movement to encourage health and fitness for the working population. Golf missed out on this but one of the results was the building of hundreds of beautiful Lido's up and down the country.  Over time the economics of running these has seen them fall into disrepair, very few survive today.  Once people had swum in indoor heated pools the bracing outdoor one lost it's appeal.  I live in a traditional 'red' inner London area and have been involved in discussion with the council to get further investment for our fine Lido.  The council have indicated it's low on their priority as they 've identified the users are incoming middle classes and don't match the profile of the borough as a whole. In other words there's no votes in it.

[Carl Johnson]

As I always mention on these threads, in USA whether at private or public courses everyone is ALWAYS keeping a stroke play score. Even if they are playing by themselves. Even if they are playing a two-ball match. Virtually every USA golfer is going to walk off the course after every round prepared to answer the question "What did you shoot". The number they have in mind may be arrant bullshit with all sort of mulligans, rolling the ball, picked up putts and so forth. But real or fake they are thinking a medal-play number when they walk off 18, every time.

Brent, that may be the case with the casual player, but for the frequent serious club player, we are "keeping a score" but it is not a stroke play (medal play) score.  It is the score we are going to post for HC purposes.  So, we do not "shoot a score," but we "post a score."  We have no choice if we want to play in the USGA HC system fairly. "But real or fake they are thinking a medal-play number when they walk off 18, every time."  Certainly many are, but also many aren't - it's just (1) who won and (2) what do I post, which in my experience is in most cases a private matter.

[Mark Chaplin]

Martin Toal never played foursomes or greensomes in 30 years. I prefer foursomes to singles and probably play 75% of my golf in the alternate shot format.

Members only bars and restaurants? I can only think of the members bar at Sunningdale, anyone got any other examples?

[Mark Pearce]

Members only bars and restaurants? I can only think of the members bar at Sunningdale, anyone got any other examples?

Dining rooms at Prestwick and Troon are members only.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Martin Toal never played foursomes or greensomes in 30 years. I prefer foursomes to singles and probably play 75% of my golf in the alternate shot format.

Members only bars and restaurants? I can only think of the members bar at Sunningdale, anyone got any other examples?

AT RCD there's a large section of the Clubhouse reserved for visitors.  It was clear that all the life in the club was through a different entrance where all the members were. Portstewart reserves it's best views of the course for a members bar.


Not what Golf is about IMO.

[Marc Haring]

Josh,



Which clubs have treated you rudely?

I've encountered far more rudeness in the UK & Aus than at any top US club I have visited.

Makes you proud to be British

[Scott Warren]

Chappers,

Of all places - Maldon GC out past Wimbledon wouldn't let me have a beer post-round with the members I'd joined up with mid-round without them having to sit with me in a different bar to the rest of their mates. In December. Lunacy.

[Martin Toal]

Martin Toal never played foursomes or greensomes in 30 years. I prefer foursomes to singles and probably play 75% of my golf in the alternate shot format.

Members only bars and restaurants? I can only think of the members bar at Sunningdale, anyone got any other examples?

AT RCD there's a large section of the Clubhouse reserved for visitors.  It was clear that all the life in the club was through a different entrance where all the members were. Portstewart reserves it's best views of the course for a members bar.


Not what Golf is about IMO.

In the days when I played RCD visitors weren't allowed in at all. I used either the boot of my car or the town course, Mourne.

[Niall C]

Chappers,

Of all places - Maldon GC out past Wimbledon wouldn't let me have a beer post-round with the members I'd joined up with mid-round without them having to sit with me in a different bar to the rest of their mates. In December. Lunacy.

Scott

I don't think you can class that as rudeness, more like following the rules. You may think justifiably that the rules suck, however you can't berate anyone for rudeness for following the rules. That of course assumes I'm reading the situation right.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Of all places - Maldon GC out past Wimbledon wouldn't let me have a beer post-round with the members I'd joined up with mid-round without them having to sit with me in a different bar to the rest of their mates. In December. Lunacy.

This example does seem high on the lunacy side. One point to remember about member-only clubhouse areas though is that when a large group of visitors or a society is in the clubhouse things can become a little, well shall we say, noisy, and if you're a member it's nice to have an area where you can relax in relative peace and quiet. However, if you're with a member, as in Scotts example, it seems pretty bad form to not allow you complete access.
All the best

[JMEvensky]

In the days when I played RCD visitors weren't allowed in at all.
 

I played RCD and Portmarnock in 1999. I have told people for 14 years that I may have been treated better at those clubs than my own.All I did was write letters a couple of months prior.

Maybe they treat Americans differently.

[Paul Gray]

Spangles

For sure, once the post war generation came into fruition things went into a higher gear, but many clubs were taking non-professional members from well before that.  I belonged to one which prided itself on being an artisan club and it is over 100 years old.  The thing I find very curious is the lack of will in the development of public courses.  I can only surmise there wasn't much call for public courses; the folks who could afford to play and were keen, could join clubs.

Ciao  

The London County Council had an early start with this and in the 1930's had Hawtree and Taylor design two excellent courses at Hainault Forrest. For year these were known as the busiest golf courses in Europe.  Moreton has written on municipal Golf in the West Midlands and it did seem to take off their.  I've only played the one in the south bit of Sutton Coldfield park and half of it is really thrilling, I suspect it was once 9 fine holes.

Pure speculation on my part but.... most urban areas in the UK have tended to return majority Labour councils.   To them golf was beyond the pale even if in the examples above a) the projects showed a fine return on investment and b) the fun went to people who could not afford or get access to private clubs. I do think it's that simple.  

In the 1930's there was a movement to encourage health and fitness for the working population. Golf missed out on this but one of the results was the building of hundreds of beautiful Lido's up and down the country.  Over time the economics of running these has seen them fall into disrepair, very few survive today.  Once people had swum in indoor heated pools the bracing outdoor one lost it's appeal.  I live in a traditional 'red' inner London area and have been involved in discussion with the council to get further investment for our fine Lido.  The council have indicated it's low on their priority as they 've identified the users are incoming middle classes and don't match the profile of the borough as a whole. In other words there's no votes in it.

I'll continue this line, if only to agree with the essence of it......

Certainly class was a massive factor in limiting the growth of public courses in Britain. It was not until the 1980's, the arrival of Thatcher's Britain and the birth of the 'we're all middle class now' phenomenon that demand really took off amongst traditionally working class but newly aspirational men. Add to that an economic boom, only the second ever mass migration away from farming, an architectural trend which valued style (or lack of) over substance and you begin to understand why Britain is now littered with boggy farm tracks which struggle to take enough in fees to keep the fountains flowing.

And the situation in America was never that different except that, driven by a sense of socioeconomic betterment as opposed to 'class jumping,' conditions were already right for the American developments of the 1950's. Forward to the 1980's again and golf in America didn't need Reagan to sell a new capitalist model in the way golf in Britain needed Thatcher because state side the model was already there.        

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

All the differences discussed in this thread about handicap systems in the US, the UK or elsewhere may dissapear if the project of a world handicap system currently being discussed is finally approved. People involved in this negotiations tell me that the main difficulty in reaching an agreement is the large number of golfers in the US who don't have a handicap or don't care about it. I don't know if that is true, but it is what they tell me.

[JMEvensky]

All the differences discussed in this thread about handicap systems in the US, the UK or elsewhere may dissapear if the project of a world handicap system currently being discussed is finally approved. People involved in this negotiations tell me that the main difficulty in reaching an agreement is the large number of golfers in the US who don't have a handicap or don't care about it. I don't know if that is true, but it is what they tell me.

I'd guess any attempt at a universal handicap system would be a hard sell in the US.The revenue under the current system is the life blood for a lot of state/regional associations.Any discussion about change makes a lot of US organizations nervous.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark your experience of Prestwick is different to mine and bourne out by their website; There are two dining rooms and two bars. The Smoke Room (Members Bar) and Dining Room maintain a formal dress code of jacket, collar and tie for gentlemen and a change from golfing attire for ladies. As temporary members for the day visiting golfers are welcomed into these rooms.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

I'd guess any attempt at a universal handicap system would be a hard sell in the US.The revenue under the current system is the life blood for a lot of state/regional associations.Any discussion about change makes a lot of US organizations nervous.
[/quote]

Jeff,

I don't know if they should worry. What's being discussed is the method to calculate the handicaps, so that it is the same all over the world, but the handicap will be given by the same entities as today. It shouldn't affect the revenues of the golf unions. The purpose of a world handicap is to have comparable handicaps in all jurisdictions.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

I played at Prestwick in March (it was cold (2 C), it was snowing (just up the road there were drifts) and windy but magnificent) and we were not able to eat in the members Dining Room, despite being in jacket and tie.  We did drink in the members bar afterwards.  This isn't a complaint of any sort, by the way, we were treated extremely well by all, in particular by the lady behind the bar who served us plentiful Kummel and then brought out some cake she had baked.  We were last to leave the bar, long after the last member but at no time did we feel anything but extremely welcome.  Prestwick is one of my favourite golf clubs.

[Andrew Buck]

I'd guess any attempt at a universal handicap system would be a hard sell in the US.The revenue under the current system is the life blood for a lot of state/regional associations.Any discussion about change makes a lot of US organizations nervous.

Jeff,

I don't know if they should worry. What's being discussed is the method to calculate the handicaps, so that it is the same all over the world, but the handicap will be given by the same entities as today. It shouldn't affect the revenues of the golf unions. The purpose of a world handicap is to have comparable handicaps in all jurisdictions.

[/quote]

I would say that probably depends.  If the entire world goes to the "UK" method where it needs to be calculated based only off of medal tournament rounds, I could see many individual clubs keeping a separate local handicap for the 50% of the membership that wants to play in club events that aren't medal, but will never play in enough medal tournaments to have a legitimate handicap.  In this case, I could see a small portion of the membership having a valid USGA handicap as administered through the CDGA or local Association, and many members simply having a simple club handicap.  

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

Andrew,

That's a valid point and it is precisely the problem being faced in the negotiations. The UK system of medal competitions only for handicap is the one followed in many countries (Argentina, for example and most countries in South America). It is not in the mind of the average American golfer. For example, in Argentina if you don't have a national handicap, you are not considered a golfer. In fact, no club would allow you to play golf if you don't have a national handicap, except if you are in the process of applying for a handicap (for which 5 medal rounds are required). It's a huge gap in the "culture" of the sport and something that is not easy to overcome.

[Sean_A]

The UK handicapping system is not terribly onerous; 3-4 qualifying comps a year.  If a guy can't play in that few per year is his handicap really meaningful?  I hope to hell the world doesn't go for casual rounds for handicapping.  Having spent much time using both systems I think the UK system is far better.  Not only can one ignore score (not have to make up a score), but I think the UK handicaps are more accurate.  Neither system is perfect, but anytime a player is effectively encouraged to leave the card in the proshop it can't be bad.  The goal is for players to have handicaps and I am not sure the US system has done a good job of making this the case; a huge percentage of golfers don't have a cap and could care less about it.  So why not change the definition of what a golfer is and use a better system?

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark - was the dining room open? It wasn't on my first visit, as not enough golfers to make it pay!

[Bill Shamleffer]

Americans predominately play match play. Be it low ball/low total or any other of many team games we play from hole to hole with a bet on each.  We simply do not have the patience to wait until the end of a round to find out who wins.

As far as accessibility goes I seriously doubt that there is a poster on this site that can name 10 courses in the United States that they want to play and can not.  As a matter of fact most private clubs "advertise" on their web sites that they want you to come and play.  My God, the foundation of this web site is based on this very access.

August National
The Country Club
Chicago Golf Club
Cypress Point
San Francisco
Maidstone
Fisher's Island
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock
Old Sandwich

My Scottish bucket list is:
St. Andrews, The Old Course
Royal Dornoch
Prestwick
North Berwick

I sure like my chances of obtaining access to those Scottish clubs A WHOLE LOT MORE over my chances to even four of my US list above.

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